What Happened to the SPS Forum???

[Rays]

Instead of just trading, fragging, and having a good time it seems to have become about money. At least I believe that was part of the original intent of this thread.

Actually I think there are two different levels of trading or buying/selling. There are those of us that donate frags to newbies at meetings free, and also trade sell frags for token prices.
Then there those of us that are addicted to collecting the LE's, I have several, none of which is fraggable yet. I did have a very large frag of superman frag a couple of years ago, and I fragged it and donated to the club auction, it fetched $300.00 if I remember correctly. I belong to both camps mentioned above, there is a happy medium.


Sharing and making friends has been the best part of this hobby for me so far...

[johnanddawn]

so you guys are saying that i shouldn't be charging 10$ a polyp? and i spent all that time last night trying to count the polyps on my chips......
funny stuff guys for a minute there i thought i was in the zoa forum

[gasman059]

You want a slimer frag too in a few months?

I've got plenty LOL, and yes half of the time all I read here is just air-Most of the time u guys are nice anyways- sounding like one does not mean u r one .
But if it smells it must be.
Nice thread and all but too much BS now. Looks to mee that u need to sell some of those frags to make your rent payment so be it.
LMAO No pun intended.

[Unarce]

Originally posted by gasman059
Looks to mee that u need to sell some of those frags to make your rent payment

...or pay the gas bill

[Unarce]

I wonder if Orchid enthusiasts whine about this stuff, too?

[SDguy]

Originally posted by Unarce
I wonder if Orchid enthusiasts whine about this stuff, too?

Oh, I'm sure...but it's a bit different when they can actually create their own through hybridizing and such I would think.

[Unarce]

Geesh! Just searched 'rare orchid' on ebay, and a bunch of pages came up. Do the same thing with 'rare live coral', and you'll get hundreds of LPS and zoos That's so funny!

Just you all wait! Soon as I figure out how to frag my clams, prices are really gonna skyrocket

[rleechb]

How are they any more justified than anyone else? What you're saying is because I'm not a huge retailer, I'm not justified in trying to make more money and improve my standard of living? When does something cross the line into the non-business realm? If I sell you something, whether I'm Huge Big Box Store or I'm Joe Smith down the road, that's business. Maybe it helps me buy something else I want, maybe it gets me a nice meal this week, maybe it's simple pocket change. How is earning money off something you do not business? How is that any different than someone selling Avon or Mary Kay? By your definition, that's not business either. By your definition, any source of income past your main employment is not business and we shouldn't be doing it. So, everyone is allowed to have one job, and once source of income, and isn't allowed to try and make more money? Right?

As mentioned in the post you're responding to, I don't think that it's unethical for any place to sell corals for profit. Sure, selling anything for money is considered business. The point I've been trying to convey isn't that a reefer selling frags for money is a jerk (although it seems to have been taken this way) and shouldn't be allowed to profit. The point I've been making is simply a comparison between the past and present.

Who's twisting your arm into buying Joe's $100 frag? How do you know Joe didn't get demoted at work and needs an extra $100 a month to make ends meet? What if Joe's kid needs $10,000 worth of dental work? What if Joe's dog has a serious illness and needs $5,000 in vet bills to live? Oh, that's right, Joe's trying to rip you off, right? Joe should give you his stuff free or cheaply. Sorry Joe, the fact that you spend a lot of time, maintenance and pay a lot for electricity, salt mix and other expenditures doesn't mean anything to me. It's a pretty simple solution here: don't buy Joe's $100 frag. If Joe doesn't want to give his stuff away, maybe it's not "worth it" to him to snip it off. That's perfectly within his realm of rights as well. He doesn't NEED to frag a coral for you. If he does it for free, great. If he does it for $10, great. If he does it for $100, great. YOU'RE the one who decides where to draw the line. Telling him he "can't/shouldn't" do it is out of line, period.

Using a bunch of hypotheticals like that isn't the best way to craft an argument. What if Joe was using the money to fund a bunch of Indonesian cyanide fishermen? What if he was a Columbian druglord? What if Nicole Simpson was actually stabbed by a band of crack smoking ninjas? "Joe" was meant to be your average reefer; not "Joe the reefer". The distinction is that there are outliers when I refer to Joe. He might have emergency bills, his kid might need a new heart, etc. (honestly, who goes to their fish tank as a means of emergency funds??), but the general sps keeping population does not have these issues, or such financial burden. It's possible, but certainly isn't prevalent.


This isn't an ethical issue, I never said "Joe's" ripping off anyone, and I never said he can't/shouldn't do what he's doing. All I did was reflect on how your average reefer has changed over the past 3-4 years, and how it was much more pleasant the way it was. Back in the day (a bit more broken record), you'd chat with a reefer, ask him to let you know when he's ready to frag something, and he'd say, "right now". Then he'd ask you about something, and you'd return the favor. Have I sold frags before? Absolutely. But I give a pretty big discount (when compared to "street value"). I sold a nickel sized frag of superman (complete w/ lineage =P) for 20 bucks. I sold a 2" piece for 30 bucks. Could I have gotten a lot more? Of course, but I know that somewhere down the line, I'll see a nice piece I want, that person will have it, and I'll be able to snag a piece as well. If it never happens, then it's not a big deal. Do I think any less of those who sell frag x for $100? No way. More often than not, they become friends. I'm even still charitable when it comes to frags, just less so.


Btw, please stop trying to make it sound like I'm attempting to get a free meal or something along those lines with your usage of "you". Feel free to post a response, but I'm not going to continue this debate after this point, because I don't think we're going to get anywhere.

[j.prostrata]

You know whats really funny though with this thread and many poeple posting in it.. They are the same people selling LE frags 5-6 frags 3/4-1" for 400-500 shipped.. Hipacrits I say. You know who you are also...

[MiddletonMark]

Nanook, I think there's a difference in hobby going on here.

There's the folks interested in the reefkeeping hobby, who are the `old time' folks you mention.

Then there's the folks who are in the `reef business/reef livestock' hobby.

I see a difference, and think much of what you relate is related to this difference.

I could keep + breed cats for my friends and for the enjoyment, or I could breed rare cats as a small business. IMO, one is a hobby, one is a business.

I have nothing against those making $$ from corals ... but IMO/IME - their hobby is a different one than mine, which doesn't have anything to do with profit [100% money pit ]

[SDguy]

Originally posted by Unarce


Just you all wait! Soon as I figure out how to frag my clams, prices are really gonna skyrocket

Please.... Just you wait 'til I learn to frag clownfish...skip that whole messy planktonic larval stage crap

[TexasPete]

Originally posted by j.prostrata
You know whats really funny though with this thread and many poeple posting in it.. They are the same people selling LE frags 5-6 frags 3/4-1" for 400-500 shipped.. Hipacrits I say. You know who you are also...

Tis true.

[MiddletonMark]

Are they?

I don't think Nanook or many others [self included] are a part of that .... and I guess I don't associate many of the names here with high $$ coral sellers.

[Unarce]

Originally posted by j.prostrata
You know whats really funny though with this thread and many poeple posting in it.. They are the same people selling LE frags 5-6 frags 3/4-1" for 400-500 shipped.. Hipacrits I say. You know who you are also...

Are you serious? Some of the people that were complaining on here are selling those frag packs?

[PUGroyale]

Originally posted by tacocat

The bottom line is that you are selling a piece of chalk that some algae are using for a house. Some poeple will see it being worth x amount. Some people will being y amount. There is absolutlety no way to convinve the y amount camp that it's worth x amount.

That's true and no one's trying to convince the "y" group otherwise.
And yet the "y" group feel obliged to call the "x" group elitists

MM: you're forgetting a third group... avid collectors of unique corals

[Serioussnaps]

There are alot more important things for folks to be worrying about....thats all I know.

You wanna talk about Iraq?

[Serioussnaps]

There are alot more important things for folks to be worrying about....thats all I know.

You wanna talk about Iraq?

[rleechb]

Originally posted by Unarce
Are you serious? Some of the people that were complaining on here are selling those frag packs?

I think some people posting here were selling frag packs, but they didn't say anything hypocritical, as far as I've seen.

[Kolognekoral]

First, I think this is a very silly thread! It sounds like the fight between the haves and the havenots!

As an artist, I expect to be paid for my work...which is a creative product. You either want it or you don't. You can afford it or not! It is always free choice (of course, I would prefer it if people were required to hang real art instead of posters...but one still can't control taste, which lies on the tongue in my opinion). Yes, I have been known to give pieces away or require low recompense, but the bottom line is always price equals what the market will bear. Basta! If you think it's too expensive, then don't buy it. If you want it and you can afford to pay the asked price, the choice is yours.

What's all this sour grapes BS?

[Serioussnaps]

Think about the worst thing that has ever happened to you.....now think about this thread's topic. Now do you really give a flying fiznuckle?

My thing is I know I am no expert and havent been on RC for long, but I like coming on here and helping true noobs...i mean TRUE NOOBS. Thats why I like RC, that and I can actually learn from the true experts because in reality I am a true NOOB too. Its also a good place to get corals I can't find elsewhere!

I am going to buy what I buy, you are going to buy what you buy. I will do what I do, you do what you do. Who the hell really cares at the end of the day.

Threads like this should have a maximum post limit so people cant come in and ramble about crap like I am doing right now.


RCS...You have watched fight club one too many times!

THERE IS REALLY NO SUCH THING AS AN ELITIST IN A STINNKING REEFING FORUMN ...GIVE ME A BREAK...SOUND LIKE THE PEOPLE STANDING OUTSIDE OF AUGUSTA NATIONAL THAT THEY WONT LET PLAY GOLF.....its just not like that

[Rays]

If you think it's too expensive, then don't buy it. If you want it and you can afford to pay the asked price, the choice is yours.

Exactly, freedom of choice!

[RCS]

Snaps, you can't watch Fight Club too many times.

I've had my say...I'll others hash it out. You don't have to agree with me, that's not really the point.

But, personally, the day I let someone else determine how much I enjoy something I do, is the day I need to find something else to do. For the very few people that have posted on this thread, relative to the large number of members on RC, and even smaller relative to the entire hobby as a whole, my experience overall has been great. I've met lots of nice and helpful people, helped a few myself along the way, sold some stuff, bought some stuff...and really, I think if you think the "old days" are long gone, you need to get out more...or join a Civil War re-enactment group or something.

More S'Mores Schnapps!

[tacocat]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Nanook, I think there's a difference in hobby going on here.

There's the folks interested in the reefkeeping hobby, who are the `old time' folks you mention.

Then there's the folks who are in the `reef business/reef livestock' hobby.

Plus, there are coral farmers, which requires a lot of effort, and those who frag up a wild colony and sell it. Somehow, they all get lumped up into one group.

As far as those who chop up corals go, I see less wrong with it than most. This stems from the fact that we have an LFS in my area that frequently gets nice corals in, but they would never frag it or sell it. They kept it in the shop or brought it home.

So, if I had two choices:

1. Never get a piece of said specimen and never see it again.
or
2. Pay a bunch for a frag.

I'd pick option 2.

Gettting this bugger back on track with what I believe Nanooks intentions....

Trading

I have on several occassions posted free frags on my local reef board. I put up a general list. The responses I got to my post were requests for WYSIWYG pictures, sizes, can you meet me halfway. I don't want to drive 10 miles, etc.

Instareefs

I think everyone has forgotten how to cycle tanks and there is considerably less patience amongst reefers on the SPS forums, hence the topics as of late.

Elitisim

A successful acro tank needs more equipment OR maintenance than other types of reefs. I can see how this can be viewed that way.

I do agree skimmer discussions are dumb. I've been on here since 2001 (lost my old ID), and the last good skimmer threads revolved around how the emerging technology of needlwheels and how this Myreef fella was able to make nice beckett foaming head skimmers for RC folks.

The skimmer threads may start with some promise, but they end up in the toilet.

A person who cares about the appearance or build of their reef equipment is not an elitist. A person who values function over form is not a second class citizen either.

[j.prostrata]

I agree I am not complaining.. If I want somethign bad enough I will buy it.. Just like a car.. You can buy a mercedez or you can but a Kia.. The choice is your for your demand and budget.

[manderx]

A person who cares about the appearance or build of their reef equipment is not an elitist.

but people who buy it just so they can join a 'club' and constantly brag about it most certainly are, or at least wannabe-elitist.