250 Gallon room-divider project log - Page 5

ufchristyb · #**101** 03/13/2007, 01:43 PM

Yup, and we are getting ready to raise them out of hypo. We will probably leave the skunks in the QT tank for a little while longer. I originally bought them to host in our RBTAs since it didn't seem like the percularises would, but now that big momma clown has taken to an RBTA, I don't want to introduce any strife until our clowns settle on where they are going to host.

So for now, the skunks will stay in the 55, the rest will get put in the display probably this weekend.

--Christy

bureau13 · #**102** 03/13/2007, 01:51 PM

Hmmm, that could get interesting. I wonder if you separated two of the BTAs and introduced the skunks to one far away from the other.

I've always heard that multiple adult clown species is a recipe for disaster, but I needed to put a stop to an angel-picking-on-carpet-anemone problem, so I got a Sebae clown for that, in addition to the pair of Maroons hosting every BTA they can get their fins on. There was some aggression at first, with the Maroons chasing the Sebae back to his anemone if he should wander out, but that has subsided and I rarely see them interacting at all, despite the fact that the carpet has decided to park himself next door to one of the BTAs.

I would think seriously about trying to keep them on opposite sides of the tank at first though.;

jds

Ah64av8tor · #**103** 03/13/2007, 05:08 PM

Hold on, I have been witness to WWIII since the Ocellaris moved in to the RBTA. It has been a total combat zone in there, the Ocellaris have gone insane claiming the hole tank as theirs since hosting the RBTA.

The Poor Skunks have no safe zone and they are getting picked on by the much smaller Ocellaris from both ends, the Ocellaris are not just darting out for the frontal attack but one will shoot out and the other will circle behind and corner one of the skunks.

I think I'm going to have to split them up.

bureau13 · #**104** 03/13/2007, 07:58 PM

Wow...my Maroons sound mellower than your Ocellaris, that's not supposed to be the case!

jds

jeffbrig · #**105** 03/14/2007, 12:32 PM

I can't believe it....

This tank has been up and running for almost two years. Since day one, we've been religious about quarantining everything we could to keep ich out of the system. Today, I looked at the tank, and I see about a dozen telltale white spots on the achilles and two on the purple. Maybe I'm taking this too hard, but I'm pretty well devastated after the work that we've put into this.

I can pinpoint two possible sources of entry. 1) The mandarin that we QT'd by tank transfer. Perhaps it's not as sound a method as we believed. 2) Ich came in attached to the rock base of an acro colony. Because we found acros difficult to maintain in a QT tank, we only do a series of dips and scrub the base. It's possible that ich encysted on the rock made it through this process and released into our tank. It really looks like we need to rethink this strategy.

We really don't want to lose any of these fish, but I'm particularly attached to my achilles. Christy and I are racking our brains to come up with ideas to deal with this. Re-QTing all of the fish would work, but is logistically difficult with multiple tangs. The flipside is removing all rock/coral and QTing the fish in the tank for 6 weeks or so. Or keeping things simple with UV, heavy feeding, etc., and hoping for the best.

On top of all this, I'm having a root canal this afternoon.

Ah64av8tor · #**106** 03/14/2007, 12:53 PM

Ouch....Sorry Jeff on all counts. I'm not sure which one is the worst....I hate the Dentist!!!!!!!

I cant help think there might some truth in the ever present Ich theory.

jeffbrig · #**107** 03/14/2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ah64av8tor
I cant help think there might some truth in the ever present Ich theory.

No, I don't buy into that at all. Our Achilles has always been particularly susceptible to ich. When we got him he was covered in it. He hasn't shown a single grain for 1.5 years now, so I really believe this is a recent introduction into our display. That being said either:

1) The tank transfer method is bunk, and a mandarin with no outward signs of ich carried it into our tank or

2) Ich hitchiked in on the base rock of a coral.

Either way, I think I am going to go cry now.

--Christy

maxxII · #**108** 03/14/2007, 03:10 PM

Jeff,

While I applaud your herculean efforts to prevent ich from breaking out in your main system....the world hasnt come crashing to an end, I promise.

Watch the behavior of your fish....has it changed? I'd bet money that it hasnt. Base your reactions to events happening to the tanks inhabitants, or how they react. If they are still eating, still playing/defending their territories, (playing and defending territories requires energy expenditure...if the animal is really in trouble, it wont do those things) then you, and most importantly, They, are fine.

Ich happens man. It sucks, but its kinda like a cold in a healthy system. It sucks for a few days, you watch anxiously at first, then realize it blows over with nothing exciting really happening. Your fishes immune system will take care of minor outbreaks. Major outbreaks are a different story...but this isnt one of those.

The fun part....everytime you introduce a new fish, you will most likely have another minor outbreak. It will do what will most likely happen in this case...blow over in a few days with no losses or other issues.

Dont change your QT proceedures. That is part of makes your system so healthy in the first place.

How do I know all of this......cause it happens in my system. I've got a regal angel, (only had it since october) and a Tomini tang, had it for going on 2.5 years now. Everytime I add a new fish, ich breaks out for a few days, then dissapears. Never gets to be plague proportions, just a couple of spots on the tang and occasionally on the royal gramma. But thats it.

I'm in the process of upgrading to a larger tank. I will be adding a purple tang to the system, (shortly before transferring every thing over from the current tank). No doubt I will have a slight ich outbreak just from the stress to the fish of being moved 10 feet away to a bigger tank...things will most likely be fine.

Now, with the dentist....I got nothing for you on that.

However, I can say my wife had an emergency root canal last year and said it really wasnt too bad. She's a complete wuss when it comes to pain, so keep that in mind.....
otherwise, think of your tank, and find your happy place while the dentist is doing his thing.

Nick

jeffbrig · #**109** 03/14/2007, 07:36 PM

Nick, thank your for that. It is a big help to step back and look at the bigger picture. I agree with you that the fish are in any imminent danger right now (knock on wood), but I'm concerned about what might happen on round 2, or round 3, as the ich increases in numbers. The acanthurus tangs, in particular, are known for being very fragile, and those are the ones I'm most worried about losing.

Right now, we're leaning towards setting up another large QT, since our 55g is currently holding the skunk clowns, tomini, and chromis. We're thinking at least 75g, although I might even consider a 6' 125 if I can find one to borrow or pick up cheap. I know the extra swimming room would be good. I don't want to compound the stress any more than I have to by coralling these already stressed tangs into a tiny tank to start WWIII (or is it WWIV, since greg already has WWIII going on in his 65g

).

-Jeff

maxxII · #**110** 03/14/2007, 07:56 PM

Jeff,
I understand your angst and concern...

But I would SERIOUSLY wait this out before you stress the fish out further by trying to remove them from the tank.

By all means, get the larger QT set up and ready to go so that if necessary, your all set....but at this stage, I would not go any further.

Watch the fish, and numbers of ich spots on the fish....fewer than 20 on a larger fish.....with no changes in behavior other than occasional scratching.....it will beat it on its own. You start seeing more than that, then I'd start moving them to the QT.

I'm speaking from experiance here, not just arm chair commando-ing it to you.

Nick

jeffbrig · #**111** 03/14/2007, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by maxxII

Watch the fish, and numbers of ich spots on the fish....fewer than 20 on a larger fish.....with no changes in behavior other than occasional scratching.....it will beat it on its own. You start seeing more than that, then I'd start moving them to the QT.

I'm speaking from experiance here, not just arm chair commando-ing it to you.

Nick

Nick

The achilles is already showing more than 20, the PBT and Purple are still less than 10 cysts. At this point, should we be making plans to move them all based on the Achilles? Of our fishes, the Achilles is definetely the fattest and the alpha fish.

Right now we are trying to locate a 100+ gallon tank to set up so we can start the QTing process this weekend.

--Christy

jeffbrig · #**112** 03/14/2007, 08:32 PM

A quick, blurry shot to give you an idea of what we're dealing with:

GuOD · #**113** 03/14/2007, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jeffbrig
A quick, blurry shot to give you an idea of what we're dealing with:

Just wanted to add my personal experience with ich.

My YT and Rabbitfish had it pretty bad (even on the eyes) but were still eating etc. After a few weeks they are all ich free. No treatment except for dipping some food in garlic (don't know if it does anything though)

healthy fish can fight it off

jeffbrig · #**114** 03/14/2007, 09:21 PM

Healthy fish can fight it off, no doubt, and I'm sure mine will survive this initial outbreak. But, I'm still not content to leave it in the tank, waiting for an opportunity to erupt again.

In my mind, letting your fish live with recurring ich is like letting your dog/cat carry fleas. Sure, they'll survive most of it, only a really bad infestation, or an otherwise weakened animal, would ever be fatal.

I realize that not everyone is going to share that view, and I'm not trying to convert anyone over to it. Suffice it to say that Christy and I are serious animal lovers, and that applies to our fish just as much as it does to our furry little ones.

maxxII · #**115** 03/14/2007, 11:37 PM

Based on the photo you posted Christy, No I wouldnt move the achilles or any of your other fish. Ich rarely kills healthy fish. Fish that are malnourished, with compromised immune systems will succumb to ich...but they are generally in a bad way to begin with. Ich is an opportunist type parasite, not a virulent pathogen.

Jeff, I realize you guys are serious animal lovers, and I dont consider any of my animals replaceable, so their health is paramount to me. Its with that mindset I'm speaking (typing) to you guys with.

I applaud your desire to ensure your system is pathogen free, but do you realize that since you currently have ich in the tank, you will need to break down the system entirely to completely sterilize your system? Ich can remain dormant for an incredibly long time. I'd just hate to see you guys go through the trouble of QTing everything again, only to have ich reappear later.

I dont expect my words to sway you from your intended course of action, and I wont pester you further with my views on this. Its your tank, and you guys have done well thus far.

I will, however, continue to watch this thread and wait for updates on the condition of the fish. You've done an amazing job with this tank, and it is truly beautiful. I'm sure that whatever you guys decide to do, the fish will come out just fine.

Nick

bureau13 · #**116** 03/15/2007, 07:13 AM

Everything I've read says it has to have a fish within a certain period of time or it dies without reproducing (that period of time is on the order of a couple of weeks I think). Nick, when you say it can remain dormant for an "incredibly long time" that would seem to run counter to that. Can you be more specific?

For what its worth, I don't completely buy into accepted wisdom that as long as there are fish, the ich is still there even if you don't see it for months. I do think it can die out if the only available fish are resistant enough. I don't have any scientific evidence of that, just anecdotal.

Christy and Jeff, very sorry to see this. If you do decide to remove them all to QT, how do you plan to catch them? Will you be draining the tank?

jds

PS: IMO it probably came in on an acro base. If tank transfer is bunk then so is pretty much everything we supposedly know about the ich lifecycle, and mandarins are pretty resistant to it on top of that...so that seems highly unlikely to me.

jeffbrig · #**117** 03/15/2007, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by maxxII
Ich can remain dormant for an incredibly long time. I'd just hate to see you guys go through the trouble of QTing everything again, only to have ich reappear later.

We've been discussing this very point. Many people have tried leaving tanks fallow for 6-8 weeks while treating fish with hypo or copper, and some found that ich still returned. Of course, no one knows if those failures were because the tank wasn't kept fallow long enough, or if the fish weren't properly treated (i.e. incorrect copper level, salinity not quite right in hypo) and reintroduced it. That makes it a bit of a crap shoot. And you're right, it is a lot of work and big disruption.

We're still debating whether we want to immediately treat, or take a wait and see approach for the next few days, then decide how to best proceed.

-Jeff

(BTW, I don't think you're pestering us with your views, I always enjoy an intelligent discussion)

jeffbrig · #**118** 03/15/2007, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bureau13
Christy and Jeff, very sorry to see this. If you do decide to remove them all to QT, how do you plan to catch them? Will you be draining the tank?

jds

PS: IMO it probably came in on an acro base. If tank transfer is bunk then so is pretty much everything we supposedly know about the ich lifecycle, and mandarins are pretty resistant to it on top of that...so that seems highly unlikely to me.

I agree, one of the acros most likely carried it in.

If we pull out the fish, it will involve some trickery to catch the fish. Most of the tangs eat out of my hand to the point that I could pratically catch them by hand. I might be able to net those if I keep the net in the tank and entice them with food. The others will be harder. I might try a fish trap, although there's a good chance I will end up moving some corals/rock around. It will be a headache, that's for sure.

maxxII · #**119** 03/15/2007, 08:14 AM

JDS,
I've personally never experianced this, but a friend of mine had an ich outbreak after a year of adding nothing to the tank. He added no new livestock, did nothing different, and had a minor outbreak like this.

Certain stages of the ich lifecycle are dependant on fish, (cant for the life of me recall if its the trophont or the tormont stage...or maybe its the third stage who's name I cant remember), the others are capable of going dormant.

Nick

bureau13 · #**120** 03/15/2007, 09:50 AM

Hmmm, if that's true, then the whole "leave the tank fallow" bit is a waste of time.

agarza · #**121** 03/15/2007, 10:21 AM

I'm really sorry to hear about the outbreak. You have such beautiful setup and fish. But I'm sure that if anyone can tackle this one down is you and Christy.

I also agree that it must have come with an acro base, which makes me wonder what could you have done to avoid this and I think nothing. You both are by far the most careful and dedicated people I've heard of about keeping ich out of the system, it's definitely just bad luck.

I'll keep watching and hoping that everything goes well with your fabulous pets.

Cheers!

ufchristyb · #**122** 03/15/2007, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agarza
I also agree that it must have come with an acro base, which makes me wonder what could you have done to avoid this and I think nothing. You both are by far the most careful and dedicated people I've heard of about keeping ich out of the system, it's definitely just bad luck.

Actually, after we figure out how to address the display issues, we will be tackling the project of a proper coral QT tank, one with enough lights to host acros and keep them happy for 4-6 weeks. This is never going to happen again.

Basically, we will be taking our zealous QTing to a whole new level. So, stay tuned. . .

--Christy

Ah64av8tor · #**123** 03/15/2007, 10:47 AM

Jeff & Christy,

I'm really sorry this is happening to you two. I know how much effort you have put into the QT process.

Wouldn't a fresh water dip do away with anything that could be on the substrate that a coral is mounted on? I know it is risky for the corals but have heard of it being done with success.

ufchristyb · #**124** 03/15/2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bureau13
Hmmm, if that's true, then the whole "leave the tank fallow" bit is a waste of time.

I don't really know about that. The statement, there were no new additions to my tank is not the equivalent of running a tank fallow without fish. The scientific reasoning behind leaving a tank fallow is sound. I think many times people have ich in their systems that doesn't show until a period of stress. Hence, there were no new additions to my tank for a year and then ich broke out. But the ? is why did it break out - was there a period of stress or poor water quality, so that a fish, which had normally been not susceptible now is stressed and is therefore capable of breaking out in it?

I think running fallow can work. Our liverock originally came from a store with a lot of ich in their systems. It sat fallow in our tank for 6-8 mos before the first fish was added. I am fairly certain there was no ich in our tank prior to recently given that there have been many periods of stress/new fish additions and the achilles has never shown signs before now. So I do think running fallow can work, I just wonder how long is needed to truly wait out the life cycle and have everything die off. I also wonder if there is any chance ich can host on things like clams/starfishes or leathery corals, if so, there would be no way to eliminate it completely. The literature however seems to suggest this is impossible.

Right now, I am leaning toward pulling the fish and setting up a large hypo QT tank and letting the display go fallow for 8-10 weeks. We also bought a UV sterilizer today to put on the display, which I hope will help to neuter the little buggers and help the eradication during the fallow process. That being said, Jeff and I still haven't fully decided what to do yet.

Setting up a large QT and catching the fish will be a huge amount of work (not that this matters) and will cause stress on the fish (my biggest concern), but I am worried about what the future will hold if we don't do this. There were no stressors in our tank, and our Achilles is our healthiest, alpha fish, and he broke out worst, so I don't think we have a situation like many people have where ich is always present in the tank and never becomes problematic unless there is other stress.

Please keep the comments and discussion going, this has been tremendously helpful to me.

--Christy

jeffbrig · #**125** 03/15/2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ah64av8tor
Jeff & Christy,

I'm really sorry this is happening to you two. I know how much effort you have put into the QT process.

Wouldn't a fresh water dip do away with anything that could be on the substrate that a coral is mounted on? I know it is risky for the corals but have heard of it being done with success.

I don't know if the osmotic shock would affect ich embedded in the rock or not. I don't think anyone has studied it enough to say for certain.

From what I've read, I believe they are pretty hard to kill when they're encysted in the reproductive phase.