DSBs and Nitrates

[romunov]

I do!

Wow, and I had to use a microscope to see them.

[Thales]

Originally posted by DennisRB
[B]My sand bed is over a year old and it packed full of life. The sand gets regularly turned over by my critters, that is why when I stirred it up nothing poisonous came out (IMO). (I would have stopped stirring if it looked like smelly black stuff was coming out)

Maybe! I think the issue is that sometimes you get a crash when you stir a dsb, not always. I used to regularly 'storm' mine - all was fine until it wasn't. It was really horrible to watch most of my 4 year old corals go down. When it happened, there was no black stuff coming up, the ickies that can crash your tank may not be visible or smell-able.

It still does not explain why no P04 came out though.

I would guess they did, but in amounts that other life in the tank were able to deal with. AIUI, the PO4 is extremely bio reactive, and gets taken up by life pretty quickly.



As to the algae on the reefs idea - I just got back from Tonga, and the areas that are full of macros have very little coral while the areas with coral have almost no macros.

[MCsaxmaster]

Sure, they compete with each other. Macroalgae don't dominate healthy reefs though, other kinds of algae do.

Best,

Chris

[floridajhawk]

I cant compete with any of you as far as knowledge but illl share my own experiences. I have had my DSB for 9 months in my 125. I went from reef to now predator and my bed is anywhere from 3-5 inches complete with pods, worms, 12 red foot snails, 250 nassarius snails, and 15 olive snails. I never stir it up and have never had any nitrate problems. Am I doing things correctly or am I just waiting for disaster ? ? ? thanks so much

[RustySnail]

Originally posted by floridajhawk
I went from reef to now predator... I never stir it up and have never had any nitrate problems. Am I doing things correctly or am I just waiting for disaster ? ? ?

How long has it been predatory? I have been contemplating the possibility that a DSB is way more capable of processing nitrate than previously thought (possibly too high for N/C/P balance in reef systems). Your system may be a good example of the ability for DSB to reduce nitrate with heavy bioload. Have you ever tested for Phosphate? What livestock to you have (type/size) and what do you feed?

Romunov-
Yep; I was referring to the symbiotic algae that the corals host. The presence of the light-loving corals is evidence enough to me that the zoos/algae are in abundance!

As Rich noted on his trip, the Corals/Algae likely compete for growth locations; some doing better than others depending on water movement, nutrient levels, turbidity etc...

[floridajhawk]

full size soapfish 10inches and fatter than ever, 1'6'' spotted moray eel, 4 inch v-tail grouper, and a baby baby bamboo shark 5inches maybe. 40 lbs LR, I feed them salmon, tuna, scallops, mussels, krill, and gut loaded crayfish for my big grouper he eats them whole. I feed my guys 3 times per week and I have never had an issue with phosphate problem. no problems with water at all. In my wet dry there is a ton of chaeto as well

[RustySnail]

Usually in FO setups nitrate will build. Generally this is not a big problem for the fish; but it could lead to algae issues. Keep an eye on nitrate/phosphate levels, but its entirely possible that nitrate/phosphate is getting reduced/removed by both the DSB and macro adequately for the bioload. If you run a filter bag in your sump it will help capture/remove fish waste so it is 'exported'; especially if you lightly 'fan' the surface of the sandbed now and then.

DSB wipeout is a concern, but if it is left undisturbed and free of buildups it is much less likely (IMHO). You might get a couple of cukes to help mop up detrital mulm.

[CaptiveReef]

I think there is a little confusion on Phosphate and Nitrate production, with this thread.
Ist off there will always be production of Phosphate and Nitrate, in the aquarium. The only way to have 0 levels of each is to have 0 life in the tank, which of course is not happening here.
Blaming a DSB for Nitrate, waste accumilation, Phosphate, is not the right answer for this topic.
The reason some have elevated levels of Phosphate and Nitrate in their systems is that these hobbyists have not provided the proper conditions to create the proper environment for the micro fauna or macro algae growth to consume these two by products of the living marine life-cycle.
I use alot of bio-media in my system, also I have a tank that is dedicated for macro algae growth, and I have a DSB at the bottom of my filter vat. Macro algae's play a vital role in the removal of Nitrates and Phosphates. They use it as fertilizer, now to answer this question which comes up right away,"why in the ocean are these levels not detected", the reason is because the ocean is so vast, these levels are diluted.
And there is so much algae using up all of these nutrients, also the waters in the natural reef are considered a nutrient soup.
There is so much nutrients that is being transported with currents, also these nutrients are being broken down by the food chain,
finally the bacteria get whats left and this is converted into amino acids.
We all have a very small scale of the ocean in our homes, in order to have a healthy functioning system we need to cover all the aspects of production and provide a means of consumption/ removal of these by products.
The proof of this is that those hobbtists who have healthy water parameters, have found that level of production/consumption/removal and this now provides the proper parameters.
You should be able to keep all types of coral species in the same tank, you don't have to separate them to their own tanks, because you have to keep certain water parameters for each coral. I have spoken to alot of SPS hobbyists who keep their tanks pristine algae free, and claim other corals species didn't make it in that tank. That because they pretty much starved, to have success with different species in the same tank you need to provide proper water movement,lighting, spacing of corals, and feeding. Creating a sterile environment is not the answer.


CaptiveReef

[RustySnail]

VERY well said CaptiveReef!! I think it's the non-balance of N/C/P cycling that is throwing people into the "keep it sterile" method.

And I think this comes about because DSB's are highly efficent at reducing nitrate levels (to below acceptable levels); which causes a die-off of beneficial algae/bacteria and/or limits growth of new algae/bacteria to consume free phosphate. The release of phosphates from a DSB may simply be due to the fact that it was 'starved to death'; and the bacteria population crashed. In a well established tank (with a DSB) that is regularly fed you can put a huge amount of food in with no nitrate/phosphate/aglae problems...

[Weatherman]

I think anyone wishing to understand DSBs needs to read this thread.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=263482

[RustySnail]

Read it way back when... I don't think it's the 'definitive answer'.

You might read the following:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=293640

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by CaptiveReef
You should be able to keep all types of coral species in the same tank, you don't have to separate them to their own tanks, because you have to keep certain water parameters for each coral. I have spoken to alot of SPS hobbyists who keep their tanks pristine algae free, and claim other corals species didn't make it in that tank. That because they pretty much starved, to have success with different species in the same tank you need to provide proper water movement,lighting, spacing of corals, and feeding.

Actually, many SPS keepers avoid other corals due to their aggression or alleopathy which negatively affects the SPS.

Having said that, I don't see how I can keep my light-demanding SPS and our MH hating open brain in the same tank ... that `keeping all corals together, mixed' is something it seems many authorities do not suggest as they're competitive little beasties, and do not all play nice together.
Nor to think that lagoonal corals, reef-flat corals, and the full range of hermatypic/non corals - when considering a 40 or 75 gallon body of water - you're not going to make everything happy in that space.

Nor do I think it should be something we attempt, it goes against the huge diversity and diversity of range/locales we find corals. We wouldn't lump all plants together, nor all mammals, nor all fish ... so why all corals should coexist and have the exact same demands?

[Bomber]

Originally posted by CaptiveReef
The reason some have elevated levels of Phosphate and Nitrate in their systems is that these hobbyists have not provided the proper conditions to create the proper environment for the micro fauna or macro algae growth to consume these two by products of the living marine life-cycle.
CaptiveReef

But I thought you guys were trying to duplicate nature, do it the natural way.
Are you now saying that nature didn't get it right either?

Because plenty of things in nature go eutrophic all the time and for the exact same reasons that a aquarium does. And nature can recruit all the sand bed critters and algae that it needs.

No thank you.

After experiencing too many humble attempts at duplicating "nature" and watching them fail - for the same reasons that they do in nature - I want more control over my systems than that from now own.

[CaptiveReef]

Originally posted by RustySnail
VERY well said CaptiveReef!! I think it's the non-balance of N/C/P cycling that is throwing people into the "keep it sterile" method.

And I think this comes about because DSB's are highly efficent at reducing nitrate levels (to below acceptable levels); which causes a die-off of beneficial algae/bacteria and/or limits growth of new algae/bacteria to consume free phosphate. The release of phosphates from a DSB may simply be due to the fact that it was 'starved to death'; and the bacteria population crashed. In a well established tank (with a DSB) that is regularly fed you can put a huge amount of food in with no nitrate/phosphate/aglae problems...

RustySnail,
You hit it on the nose!!!!! you can feed a tank well with a DSB.
MiddletonMark,
Just place the low light corals in areas of low light, under over hangs of rock, or at the ends of the tank. Yes the 40 -75 gallon reference is the definite truth, we as hobbyists have a ratio of reef life that exceeds the amount of water in the given tanks.
They are equipped with quite the chemical defense,(Terpens) our little corals can be a challenge!!!
Bomber,
We are duplicating nature, what occurs in our tanks is the same as in nature, the only difference is the amount of water we are able to deal with.
The constant challenge all of us experience 24/7 is maintaining these delicate ecosystems, an ecosystem in which all aspects of water parameters are multiplied due to the amount of life in the tank exceeds the amount of water.
This is the true meaning of maintaining a reef tank, having to deal with concentrations of byproducts that buildup at an incredible rate. That is why a DSB is an important part of a reef tank, to keep Nitrates in check. You can have elevated levels of Phosphate without having a DSB, Phosphorus is a natural byproduct of living organisms, Provide a source for consumption/removal and you keep it in check.The same goes for Ammonia/ Nitrite / Nitrate.
The same in Nature / The same in the Reef Tank.
The only difference is the ratio of life to water.


CaptiveReef

[floridajhawk]

so due to what I said before am I doing things correctly or skatin on thin ice ?

[CaptiveReef]

Originally posted by floridajhawk
so due to what I said before am I doing things correctly or skatin on thin ice ?

Keep the DSB!!!! with a predator setup you feed them heavy, which is fine, just provide good biological filtration,(live rock, or bio media), protein skimming, A good carbon GAC Carbon, and use Phos-Ban or a good Phosphate remover.
You will have a good amount of waste production, which will be consumed by the reef janitors,(snails) The latter will be broken down by micro fauna/ bacteria so you also want to provide the removal that goes along with the consumption.
This is done with the use of Carbon/Phosphate removal media/
protein skimming, this is the proper setup.
Two Little Fishies has GAC carbon and Phos-Ban I use these they work really well. Get the biggest skimmer you can afford.


Drs. Fosters & Smith
They carry all Two Little Fishies products
CaptiveReef

[MitchMC]

I know it is difficult but try and focus on the entire abstract as was quoted above specifically the following

from abstract all experimental treatments responded equivalently to continuous ammonia input of up to 0.5 mg / L / day. Results were qualitatively similar whether experiments were carried out in the absence of animals in a lab with nutrient input via measured dosing of ammonium chloride, or in aquaria with live animals and natural sediments.

as you may recall from your doctorial studies there is no fish poop in ammonium chloride,

perhaps you simply missed that lecture

[Bomber]

Results were qualitatively similar

whether

absence of animals in a lab with nutrient input via measured dosing of ammonium chloride

or

in aquaria with live animals and natural sediments

Having fun trolling?

[MitchMC]

Originally posted by Bomber
Results were qualitatively similar ………whether ……..absence of animals in a lab with nutrient input via measured dosing of ammonium chloride or in aquaria with live animals and natural sediments

English aside, this "quote" does not support the proposition that phos builds up due to poop getting stuck in the coarse sand beds.

The fact that the results were "qualitatively similar" suggests that some other mechanism is involved. If it was fish poop in sandbeds one would expect that there would be a difference in the live animal systems vs measured dosing systems

[Bomber]

How about trolling and personal attacks aside?

Here's the whole quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Overall, coarse sediments had lower buffering capacity (pH, calcium & alkalinity) and much higher final phosphate concentrations than fine sediments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Bomber
That's only because coarse sediments will hold more poop.

""The fact that the results were "qualitatively similar" suggests that some other mechanism is involved. If it was fish poop in sandbeds one would expect that there would be a difference in the live animal systems vs measured dosing systems""

I wasn't talking about "fish" poop.

[MitchMC]

Originally posted by Bomber
How about trolling and personal attacks aside?

Fine with me

Originally posted by Bomber

I wasn't talking about "fish" poop.

I am almost afraid to ask but..............

What poop are you referring to then

[Surf]

Bomber,

Sorry I've tried to read the 1,738,727 posts on this subject, but I missed a few in the middle

is it your opinion that all sedimantary systems become eutrophic in time?

From an RC perspective, I think it would be useful for the proponents of DSB's to write a FAQ outlining why they feel the sediments will not go eutrophic, and the Critics of DSB's to write a FAQ demonstrating why they feel it's inevitable. sticky the Faq's at the top here, thanks.

Are there any papers which show Phosphate levels ever increasing in sandbeds?

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by CaptiveReef
.
MiddletonMark,
Just place the low light corals in areas of low light, under over hangs of rock, or at the ends of the tank. Yes the 40 -75 gallon reference is the definite truth, we as hobbyists have a ratio of reef life that exceeds the amount of water in the given tanks.
They are equipped with quite the chemical defense,(Terpens) our little corals can be a challenge!!!
Bomber,
We are duplicating nature, what occurs in our tanks is the same as in nature, the only difference is the amount of water we are able to deal with.
The constant challenge all of us experience 24/7 is maintaining these delicate ecosystems, an ecosystem in which all aspects of water parameters are multiplied due to the amount of life in the tank exceeds the amount of water.
This is the true meaning of maintaining a reef tank, having to deal with concentrations of byproducts that buildup at an incredible rate. That is why a DSB is an important part of a reef tank, to keep Nitrates in check.

But if you can keep nutrient levels at undetectable [or close enough] without a DSB - why is a DSB needed?

I've managed to keep them in check for 9+ months without a DSB - so given it's not necessary to use a DSB to do it - I guess I'm unconvinced why I would want to have phosphate not removed too.

`Having to deal with concentrations of byproducts that build up at an incredible rate' ... IMO this is why a heavy focus on export is needed. It's amazing how many systems can completely deal with this via export [skimming, etc] - not by Nitrate conversion [which leaves phosphate hanging around]. IMO, that is.

As for the brain in a MH tank ... unless I was to completely shield it under LR [completely hidden from MH/reflector] - there was no where mine would be `happy'. Nevermind 30x + flow for the stonies means the flesh is pulling against the skeleton constantly ... IME, some things will not happily co-exist in reef tanks. I disagree with the idea that we can [esp. that we should] `make them' co-exist.

In my 58 - there's only so many micro-climates that are possible. I can have the flow my table Acro needs - or have it still enough for the brain to be happy - but IMO there's too much difference between 10x flow and 40x flow.

[MCsaxmaster]

Mark,

In responce to a couple of your points:

1. It's possible to have low dissolved inorganic nutrients without a sand bed, but (when properly set up) they can be a very effective tool. One could probably get this situation without a skimmer, without live rock, and without uptake systems of any sort in fact, but then one has to limit the food inputs. The more uptake of food/dissolved nutrients the more food can be added and the more organisms can live in a given space. Reefs are usually pretty dense aggregations of critters, necesitating a lot of food input.

Honestly, I don't really care who or if anyone uses sand beds or not. As long as animals are healthy and people are happy, all is well

2. Not every coral can go in the same tank, I strongly agree with you. Corals that live in areas of gentle currents aren't going to do well next to corals from upper reef slopes, and vice versa, but they can often be kept in the same tank if their needs are taken into consideration.

The two problems I see with how folks often stock their tanks is in splitting corals into the "sps," "lps," "softy" mumbo jumbo and assuming different water quality types for different corals. Corals do not show zonation based on this lps, sps thing, so why should we pretend they do? I'd have no problem putting a Symphyllia in a tank with many Acropora, Montipora, Porites, etc. even pretty close to them. With something like Hydnophora, I'd put it there, but I'd give it quite a bit of space.

As far as water quality, the nitrate and phosphate concentrations don't vary as much as most folks think over most of a reef (including a lagoon). Even in lagoonal reefs, nitrate and phosphate are typically very low (undetectable on hobbyist test kits). On an outer reef slope they are lower still, but not by much. The major difference between the environments is water flow with things like light, plankton density, turbidity, etc. also often distinct. Water quality in terms of dissolved nutrients is similar throughout. Why would we treat corals differently in this regard? It doesn't make sense to me.

3. With or without sandbeds, I think we all must realize how much and how fast our tanks normally process nutrients. If folks figure dup how much nitrogen and phosphorus are in some food, I think they'd faint. One small feeding could easily raise the phosphate level from undetectable to 0.5 ppm if all of the food were decomposed and dissolved in the water column. Obviously this is not the case. Our tanks take up and use a lot of nutrients, sand bed or no sand bed. Personally, I've found sand beds (when set up well and all) to really help in making the most of the food I add and making the tank look "reefy," but as long as everything is healthy and everyone is happy, I'm happy.

Best,

Chris

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by MCsaxmaster
as long as everything is healthy and everyone is happy, I'm happy.

Me too

And I know what you say about our coral-lumping ... I nearly killed my `yellow fiji' sarcophyton by putting it in a lower flow/light tank as `thats where the softies go'.
Thankfully, after seeing lots of video/photos of Pacific reefs with them right among large Acropora - I realized I had it wrong - and within hours of moving it to the Acro-dominant tank it looked better than ever. Hexacorals, octocorals ... some do belong together.
Some don't, too.

I too just want folks to find a system that works for their livestock and their husbandry. Provided everything is growing/thriving ... good enough in my book. I could really care less what's on the bottom of a tank when I'm distracted by all the healthy corals
[I just will always argue against there being `one way'].