The Moorish Idol Thread

[Fishy1]

Did you see immeditate results?

[Paul B]

Yes it is instant. As soon as you pull the plunger back the eye goes back to it's normal position. Of course if it was an infection that caused it you may have to also inject an antibiotic but usually it is not necessary. By removing the infected fluid or pus you are making it easier for the fish to heal itself. If you have an infected boil, the first thing the doctor will do is drain it, then cure it with antibiotics. Injecting a tiny bit of antibiotic will not harm any bacteria in the tank so the fish can be left where he is.
Of course you don't want to puncture the eye or go into the brain, that may not be a good Idea, you would need a fish neuralagist for that one.

[Fishy1]

Is the procedure done in or out of the water? Out, I assume......

[Paul B]

I can't SCUBA in my tank so I have to do it above the water

[blueregaltang]

Hi Paul
First of all tank you for granting me permission to show your photographs and also for the valuable tip about mincing the food for the Zanclus.
Since the last time I wrote many interesting evolvements occurred, of which I now give you the synthesis.

As I told you, I intended to collect some local sponge that I though to be similar to the orange one you show and use, and give it as food to the Zanclus. Well I did that and here are the facts:
I collected some samples of the local existing two sponge species, that later I have identified as Hymeniacidon sanguinea and Halichondria paniceia, with which I prepared what I call a “generic sponge paste” and later a “specific sponge paste”.

Some images of the sponges, places of collection at Aguda rocky beach in Vila Nova de Gaia City, Portugal
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...dio_escala.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...a_paniceia.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...oral_m_dio.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...ovincialis.jpg
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...nea_escala.jpg

Before giving the Zanclus de generic paste, I was feeding it Ocean Nutrition dried algae, mainly the red one which it liked particularly, maybe because it was softer/smoother than the brown and green ones. I used to cut the algae sheets in small bits, soaked them in the tank water and thus macerated them between my fingers, plunging them afterwards in the tank, and the Zanclus would eat those soft bits. As time passed the Zanclus became more and more integrated in the fish community up to the point were it started to dispute them the food, showing difficulty only for lager bits since it doesn’t have the same ability to cut pieces as the other fish do. This confidence evolved more and more and from the moment I started to feed the sponge pastes prepared by me, the Zanclus started and still does to this day, dispute the food from any of the others “mano a mano”, regardless their size, volume, as shown by a video that I made specifically for that purpose. Also it no longer requires soaked and macerated algae, so I only have to cut it in small pieces which the Zanclus collects from the water surface, like the other fishes. I still give large pieces so that the other fishes maintain their habits. Not having to soak and macerate the algae is also very important because fewer algae are lost, so less pollution. To produce these small pieces I use a pair of scissors with which I cut on the algae sheet some strips 2 to 5 mm (+/-) spaced and afterwards cut them spaced likewise perpendicularly, producing thus the small bits that the Zanclus readily looks for, collects and ingests, mixed with all the other fishes.


The generic paste that I prepared, which has sponge from our coast in its composition, was very well accepted by both the Zanclus as well as the other fish , an expectable reaction since it has the sponge “masked” with several other ingredients that are very well accepted by the other fish.

The 1st specific paste that I prepared some days later was slightly less well accepted by the Zanclus and the other fish, also expectable since this later paste was composed by sponge and wheat flour only. A fortnight later this specific paste was improved by adding cyclop-eeze and preparing it to have elastic consistency similar to the one of the sponges them selves. This last specific paste, produced very interesting results since due to its consistency, almost only the Zanclus is able to consume it, eagerly I must ad . In my opinion such ability is due to the prehensile capacity of the Zanclus snout as if it was a prehensile beak or forceps, a feature that the other fish in the tank, lack.

The Zanclus shows a funny behaviour when it is eating the pastes. Normally it is the first to arrive to the spoon and it starts to eat. Then (as I decided to call it) arrives the “7th of cavalry”(as seen in the videos that I intend to send later on by e-mail) in the utmost hurry, confusion/trampling to reach to the paste (well…to avoid risking not getting a bite of such exquisite delicacy, or the end of the world arrive, which probably is not a problem so long as they manage to get a good snack of the paste)...well effectively when the Zanclus sees it self surrounded by so may mouths trying to eat its paste, it becomes “furious”and turns to the side and “bites” and pushes its neighbour with a certain rage (even if the neighbour has 3 or 4 times its size and weight), this without any consequence for both the Zanclus and its neighbours, which continue to eat and remain so pushing one another during a few seconds after which they move away to swallow, returning afterwards.
This process lasts for 3 to 5 minutes after which I remove the spoon that still holds some paste stuck to it and wait 2 or 3 minutes after which I continue the feeding. This is repeated 2 or 3 times for each feeding session (two times a day a spoon for expresso coffee). It is important to remove the spoon from the water during the feeding intervals to:
1 - Avoid moistening/softening the paste to much, which could result in it becoming loose and scattered all over
2 – Renew the interest of the animals for the food after they become satisfied after having the first, second, third go, after that they are satisfied and it is pointless and needless to insist.

At first I was somewhat worried to feed sponge has these are known to be toxic, especially because the other fishes are also getting some, even if it is far less that the Zanclus. So far I observed no problem whatsoever.

During all this time my two Deltec APF 600 skimmers responded well to the requests. Any way that was my intention when I decided for two skimmers. My next project, a 625 or so imperial gallons marine reef tank (3000 liters or 3 cubic meters), will be equipped with two bubble king 300, 400 or 500 external skimmers.


Some Images of the sponge before mincing

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/..._congelada.jpg
FROZEN

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/..._de_limpar.jpg
A small bit before cleaning


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...s_de_limpa.jpg
Cleaned

The generic paste composition is as follows:

Ocean Nutrion red algae – 1/5th of a sheet (+/-)
Frozen Mysys – 1 cube
A piece of the local sponge (one or both species) – 1 piece with equivalent volume to the Mysys cube.
Trpoic Main Immuvit – 1 measure spoon (supplied in it)
Cyclop-eeze – 1 full tea spoon
Kent Zoecon – 2 drops
Table Mineral water – 2 full mineral water caps
Wheat flour 55 without yeast – Use enough quantity to give the paste a similar consistency of liver paste.

I started by mincing the Mysys, after which I minced the sponge followed by the algae, to which I added the 2 water measures to ease the mincing and blending. Presently I leave the algae soaking in a small glass bowl while I mince the other ingredients. The water retained by the algae is enough so the 2 water caps are no longer needed, or seldom needed.
Once the three ingredients were minced, I blended them between them selves and added the Tropic Marin Immuvit measure spoon and the Cyclop-eeze, blending everything together. Next and after obtaining a homogenous mix, I added and blended progressively the wheat flour until the pretended paste consistency was attained.
The paste is soft and adheres to the spoon, and does not detach it self into the water when the spoon is plunged in the tank. The features “soft” and “adherence to the spoon” are paramount. The first because as you well know and was kind enough to explain me, the Zanclus needs soft/smooth food so that it is able to ingest it since its snout does not allow it otherwise. The “adherence to the spoon” is important to assure that the major part if not all, is in fact ingested and not scattered all over. Now this is well evidenced in the video that I intend to send you by e-mail, reason for which I ask you to kindly send me a private message with your e-mail address (gmail please) so that I may send it over to you. I was able to publish it in the Portuguese forum because the administrator was kind enough to do it for me and thus every one over here in Portugal was able to witness this (very interesting).



The following photographs are not very sharp but probably that was due to the mincing activity in progress at that time

To mince the ingredients I chose a knife (and still use one) but you can use a kitchen mincer which is faster.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...17PICT0331.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...17PICT0332.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...17PICT0333.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...17PICT0334.jpg

The specific paste 1st composition (now in stand by) is as follows:

One piece of local sponge (one or both species)
Wheat flour 55 without yeast - Use enough quantity to give the paste a similar consistency of liver paste.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...nja_picada.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...nja_apenas.jpg

The specific paste 2nd composition (very well accepted and swallowed by the Zanclus) is as follows:

One piece of local sponge (one or both species)
Cyclop-eeze – Quantity in equal volume of the sponge used
Wheat flour 55 without yeast – Use enough quantity to give the paste a similar consistency of sponges.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...espec_fica.jpg
A piece of sponge sided by three bits of Cyclop-eeze and in the centre, the already prepared specific paste.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/..._superior_.jpg

Specific paste (left) and generic paste (right), ready to be placed into the refrigerator top shelf covered by glass bowls to avoid drying.

It is my intention to replace the wheat flour by fish flour in the near future, but so far these three formulas are working well and are seldom pollutant. Due to their consistency they do not detach them selves in the water and are fully ingested.

Besides these pastes I started to feed small pieces of fresh sponge as shown in the photographs bellow. I had done this previously and the Zanclus showed some shy interest. I later noticed that the sponge had missing nibs, but couldn’t determine for sure if the Zanclus had eaten them. This time I remained observing and thus noticed that the Zanclus likes and eats the sponge bit by bit.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...gas_e_tudo.jpg

Upon searching in the Internet for some scientific/technical information about feeding habits of the Zanclus I found this interesting information stating that it feeds on zoobenthos and sponges between 85 and 87% if I well understood. Be it so or not, It is my belief that sponges play a very important role in the Zanclus nutrition, even if they are toxic. Analysing, collagen is one of the nutrients that the Zanclus may obtain from the sponge, a very important protein to the organism and its well functioning. Being a protein it has amino-acids in its composition which may be determinant for the well being and development of the Zanclus.

Citation from explanation in Wikipedia:
The Collagen molecule has a quite uncommon composition of amino-acids. It is formed by a grate number of glycines and pralines, as well as two more amino-acids that are modified after being placed by the ribosomes: the Hydroxiproline and the Hydroxilisine. These later two are derived respectively from proline and lysine through enzymatic processes that are dependent on C vitamin. For that reason the deficiency on C vitamin leads to scurvy, a disease related with collagen synthesis problems. Causes severe haemorrhage.

http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Trophic...Zanclus&Specie sName=cornutus&fc=520&StockCode=6259

http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Trophic...nusName=Zanclu s&SpeciesName=cornutus

http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Trophic...nusName=Zanclu s&SpeciesName=cornutus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collagen

For the time being all I can say is that the Zanclus is evolving well, I think it grew. It eats these pastes, the sponge, algae cut in small bits, brine shrimp, cyclop-eeze.
The next step is to increase the number of times I give fresh sponge.

For the time being this is all. I’ll keep you informed of the developments.
I thank you once more for your valuable information and permission to show your sponge photographs – THANK YOU PAUL.
I thank also João M Monteiro for is support and everything – MUITO OBRIGADO JOÃO.

I profit to put some photographs obtained last 24th and 25th September 2006. Their quality is not very good, but will give you an idea of my marine tank and my Zanclus.


















Kind regards
Blue Regal Tang (Pedro Nuno)

[Paul B]

Pedro, thank you for that informative post. Your Idol looks very healthy and beautiful.
The sponge I collect looks diferent from yours but they both seem to provide something that Idols love and hopefully need. I make a similar paste but I use Plaster of Paris and bananas instead of flour. I think, as you mention, that a fish flour would be better.
I am sure I could get some in an Asian market.
I also add vitamins in Selcon and additional vitamin A. I rarely have time anymore to make this paste so I usually just feed pure frozen sponge one day and something the next. I used to know how to mix a plastic like concoction with fresh seafoods and plaster but that was many years ago so I will have to look up some of my old hand written records to see if I could find it.
Thanks again for letting me know the recipe yopu use. I will send you my E mail address.
Take care.
Paul

[suwbarrux]

This is my Moorish Idol that I've had now for over a year. It lives in a 44 Gallon Pentagon Aquarium with a Red Corris Wrasse, a Coral Beauty and a Sunrise Dottyback. He has not as much room as most people would allow for a Moorish Idol but that's all I could do. His appetite is amazing. He will eat anything you put in the tank, including any polyps or small moving creatures such a nubibrach. I mostly feed him a mix of 3 different types of pellet food mixed together. I got it at a LFS and the guy gave it to me for only $23 dollars because he didn't want to screw me over if it didn't survive, but it did for well over a year now. He never wants to stay still for pictures when I take one. He is camera shy or something.

[dastratt]

[ledford1]

I'll go ahead and share an update...

I guess it's been about 2 months with my MI. He somehow scratched his eye again a coule of weeks back - I'm guessing he got startled and lunged into something - it swelled, but it healed quickly.

He still freaks a little when I turn the tank lights on. What I try to do is turn on the room lights for awhile before turning on the tanks lights. It seems to help.

He likes to explore and pick at things. I take that as a sign of good health. He's an amazing fish to watch.

[zfunk007]

Hey everyone, it's been a while since I've been on (months I believe). But I figured I'd post.

I am working fulltime now at another fish store along with running my own business. Two days ago we got a shipment of fish in at my store and low and behold there were 2 Moorish Idols in there. Neither of them looked that anorexic and they both still had their banners intact for the most part. I have made them my project and have manged to get them eating formula 2, Seaweed Selects and some brine that I treated with selcon. The next step will be getting them to eat spectrum pellets since that seemed to be one of the keys for my Moorish Idol doing well when I had him. Then I am going to try and find them good homes with responsible hobbyists. I would take one myself but I still don't have a tank of my own up and running, just business tanks (sigh).

Every Moorish Idol we get in the store I am going to do this with. Then maybe when I find the right one (and I'll know it when I do), I'll bring him home with me. But for now I am just going to work hard with the ones I have and the ones that we get in my store from time to time. Hope everyones Idols are doing well. I'll have to read back through the posts here, it's been a while.

[Sparky0028]

After see a beautiful MI at a LFS I decided to do a little research and found this thread, you guys are great.
I have always be fascinated with these fish and am thinking about adding one to my tank. I know my tank is a little on the small side but is going on 3 1/2 years and I am very dilligent about its mantainence and livestock.
It is mostly sps, one lps, a few zoos, one large ritter and 3 clams.
Do you MI guru's think this is a wise choice? I know they are hard to keep but I figure my tank is better than th LFS.

Rich

[Paul B]

I just returned from a trip to Sicily a few minutes ago and my Idol looks fine. I built a feeder for frozen food and I had someone put the food in it every day. The other two feedings of course are automatic. Of course I can hardly see through the glass so tomorrow I will have to clean that.
Paul

[Outerbank]

Rich, there are 2 problems you will encounter that will make it difficult. First, you should have a bigger tank. I had mine in a 75 gallon tank for 2 weeks because I just moved. I don't think it would of survived very long in the 75. Second, you are going to likely need to love the MI more than some things, and that likely includes clams. Mine likes to bother clams enough to kill them. I had a black and white clam with him for at least a year which he really left alone. If you want clams with a MI, I would try black and white one. Blue and green clams would likely be eaten. Good luck. Try feeding small pieces (size of brine shrimp) of scallops from your seafood store to the MIs to get them to eat and as a good source of food.

Scott

Originally posted by Sparky0028
After see a beautiful MI at a LFS I decided to do a little research and found this thread, you guys are great.
I have always be fascinated with these fish and am thinking about adding one to my tank. I know my tank is a little on the small side but is going on 3 1/2 years and I am very dilligent about its mantainence and livestock.
It is mostly sps, one lps, a few zoos, one large ritter and 3 clams.
Do you MI guru's think this is a wise choice? I know they are hard to keep but I figure my tank is better than th LFS.

Rich

[Sparky0028]

Scott
Thanks for the advise.

[lakee911]

Please take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_Idol and update the entry. It'll take a few minutes to add your knowledge. It seems very biased and doesn't have a lot of the same excellent info in this thread.

Thx
Jason

[Paul B]

I copied this from that site you posted above.

Sponges, tunicates and other benthic invertebrates constitute the bulk of the Moorish Idol's diet. Captive kept Idols typically are very picky eaters. They will either eat nothing (most of them) and perish or eat everything (very uncommon). Eatting a variety of items is healthy. Even small portions of avacados and banannas are sometimes fed in captivity.

I have been telling this same thing to aquarists for many years. We try to keep them by feeding clams, plankton etc but sponges are their main diet. As was also said, they eat bananas and avacados although I thought I invented that.
Mine is almost four years old and I do feed sponge (that I collect) besides the bananas and the ocassional bananna. I am lucky as mine is of the type that will eat anything but as I said before this may be the fact that the male leads the female to food. Of course that is my theory just from following them on the reef.
I diden't know their dorsal fin shortened with age and I diden't notice this in the sea but I did notice that their dorsal fin is thicker in wild individuals. I know food is a problem with these fish but IMO it is not the only problem.
Have a great day.
Paul

[lakee911]

Mine like guacamole Add yourself as the source for that. I've gotten mine to eat both avacado and banannas. Also eats any other food I put in there, flake, frozen, live, etc. Also likes iceberg lettice if pieces are small.

Jason

[Paul B]

Thats one of the keys, small bites. Mine would eat wood if I cut it small enough.
Paul

[zemuron114]

I had 12 moorish idols that i was holding, and all 12 ate frozen mysis (these were fresh caught idols from Hawaii) I have no idea on the long term success but the hawaiian ones do 10x better then the indo ones or philippines.

[mikeguerrero]

I finally decided to purchase my first MI. I ended up getting a really small one compared to what I've seen at the stores.

I asked the LFS to feed and he took up some pellets and frozen enriched brine shrimp.

I had read that the minimum size to keep these guys is at least 120 gallons and I only have a one year old stable 72 gallon RR bowfront.

I went home with my new fish and did the acclimation and dropped him in, immediately he started swimming around with the other fish.

I have a blue tang, kole tang, powder blue tang, black occeleris clown, and salfin algae blenny.

The powder blue started harrassing the hell out of the MI to the point that I called the LFS and said what gives. (he knows what I have)

Quickly was told that the PB is setting up dominance and within the hour he left him alone just a couple of chases but not like before.

I fed them immediately when the PB started the chase and everyone ate including the MI.

I have tons of LPS corals in with tons of purple coraline as my tank is fully stocked with live rock and corals.

The MI nipped away at the tentacles of my trumpet corals but nothing too serious just small nips.

He loves green flakes and the frozen enriched brine.

This is his first night in the tank as I write this email, all other fish hide in the crevices and this guy swims in the left hand corner front and center, doesn't hide at all during the night.

I'll keep everyone posted on his progress as I'm one of the few attempting to keep a MI in a tank smaller than what is recommended.

I hope to have a 140 gallon reef ready tank in one year from today....

MG

[Mike de Leon]

Just a question for everyone please....
Will keeping an idol in an SPS tank work??

[Mike de Leon]

Just a question for everyone please....
Will keeping an idol in an SPS tank work??

[zfunk007]

Will keeping an idol in an SPS tank work??

It depends, and in my opinion and from my experience it is ALWAYS a risk putting a Moorish Idol in a reef tank. My Idol ate none of my corals for about 3 months, then all of a sudden he ate everything (SPS's, Zoo's, Trumpets, you name it, he ate it). They will probably do better in a reef tank than a fish only but it is always a gamble to add one in my opinion.

But I have seen people who have Idols that don't touch corals. If you have an SPS only tank then I'd say you have the best chance though (if you have any LPS's though watch out, those seem to be the first ones they go for). Good luck.

[Mike de Leon]

Thank you for the quick response. My LFS has one MI right now that eats NORI. I just might give it a shot.

Cheers!!

[BlueNWhite]

Originally posted by Mike de Leon
Thank you for the quick response. My LFS has one MI right now that eats NORI. I just might give it a shot.

Cheers!!

Hey Mike, I see that you are in Toronto. Not sure if you have ever been to North American Fish Breeders, but they had some MI that were eating Omega One pellets quite readily.

Raymond