JapanReef - 450 gallon In-Wall system

[NexDog]

Okay guys, smething weird going on here. I decided to check everything and the results are strange. Our water is pretty good as its mountain spring water (we live in between active volcanoes) and I get 68ppm from the tap. I just tested teh output from my RODI unit and it is actually 0.02. Hmmm, so I then did what I did the other day which was test the water in the RODI reservoir and it was 0.28.

So my 50g reservoir is contaminated somehow. Must be some kind of sediment buildup at the bottom because it drained the other day (by accident) down to a few inches from the bottom and I filled it up in one go (so no TDS creep). I use a 50g reservoir and a separate 10g auto topoff container and just pmp from one to the other every few days. Anyhow, looks like I need to drain and scrub out that 50g container which I'll do when it empties.

[Bebo77]

you guys and you well and mountain spring water pshhh

[NexDog]

Yep, pretty lucky in that regard.

Even though the two shipments were FedEx'd at the same time and both from California they aren't coming together. The shipment of pods already got to Alaska and has left there on its way to Japan. The order from MarineDepot is still in California and just left Oakland which is their last port of call in teh US.

Difference is the type of FedEx service. ReefNutrition sent by "International Priority Service" due to the live nature of the shipment and MD sent by the standard "International Economy".

MarineDepot's shipping is very cheap though so no complaints here.

[NexDog]

Thought I'd post my Stock List. Fish left to acquire in Red.

Tangs:
Yellow Tang
Powder Blue Tang
Ctenochaetus Tang (Kole or Chevron)
Clown Tang

Angels:
Imperator Angel
Flame Angel
Coral Beauty
Regal Angel

Anthias:
10 Lyretail Anthias

Clowns:
Clarkii Clown Pair

Gobies:
Six-Spot Diamond Goby (3)
Yellow Watchman Goby

Wrasses:
Golden Coris
6-Line
McCosker's Fairy
Few others

Misc:
Blue/Green Chromis
Mandarins (2)

Left to acquire:
Regal Angel
Clown Tang
Longnose Hawks (2)
Banggai Cardinals (2)
5 Lyretail Anthias
2 Six-Spot Diamond Gobies

At the moment I have 9 fish in the display and the Powder Blue and 5 Anthias in QT will be going in at the end of the week. Plus the two Mandarins so 16 fish at the moment. My next batch of fish will probably be more Lyretails, the Kole or Chevron Tang and the Longnose Hawks. The Six-Spot Diamond or Sleeper Goby is not very interesting being white but my current one does such a great job of turning the sand over that I want to get 2 more. The Coris and 6-Line is mainly for FW duty.

Any thoughts, comments, recommendations welcome.

[rulesmith]

I may have made a big mistake today. I picked up a african yellowtail coris wrasse. Hope I do not come to rue this day. What is FW duty?

[melev]

Laurence, I must be missing something here, or time passes faster in your area than in mine. I know you have a lot of water to work with, so issues are quite diluted, but I'm worried you are stocking too quickly. I mentioned as much when the mandarins went in, but now that I've seen the fish list, I feel it so much more.

When I set up my 280g, I transferred livestock from two tanks into it as well as the livestock that came with the tank in the first place. It looked great, and did well for a while. However, after 6 months, things started imploding. I had as many as 29 fish at one point, and nitrate and PO4 were uncontrollable. Of course, I didn't have the proper sump, skimmer & refugium at that point, but the fish load was heavy. I fed much more back then, and dosed a lot of phyto. Basically, it was a compilation of issues - not just one thing. This isn't a race, so I'm recommending a good dose of patience as you add livestock. At this point, you have 9 coral frags, right? Why not observe their growth for the next 90 days before getting more? If something goes wrong, you won't lose a vast amount of corals.

Back to the mandarins. I know you've had the tank up for a few months (three?), but mandarins rely on live food for long term success. Anthony Calfo recommends 200lbs of LR per mandarin. You do have bottles of pods coming in the mail, which is good. However, any idea how many of those could be eaten by the mandarin in one session? I have a feeling if you poured them out into a bowl and put the mandarin in there, you'd have zero in short time. Most people that buy pods use these to seed a refugium and their rockwork, to build up the pod polulation in preperation for this fish. The Six-Line Wrasse, like most wrasses, eats copepods as well. So you've got three fish that will make quick work of the pods. And you've got plans to get more wrasses.

Switching gears - water. Your TDS reading confuses me just a bit. You said the tap water is 68, but the RO water is .02 and the water in the resevoir is .28 What device provides decimal point readings? If it really is .28, that is great as that is still less than 1. Whenever you test water, it should be a clean cup, independant of the system. Turn on the RO unit and let it run 1 minute, then collect a sample for testing. RO/DI water is very pure, and really is like a magnet toward impurities. So as it sits there quietly in a container, it gets dirtier over time, unless the container is sealed tightly. Anything in the air lands in that water and raises the reading. You don't really have to lose sleep over this.

You mentioned replacing membranes. Hopefully you mean cartridges. The membrane in your unit should be good for 3 to 5 years, while the prefilter cartridges are good for 6 months. The DI is good for 12 months - normally. You have a larger system and will use quite as bit of water, so you may need to change them more frequently.

I like the frags on the plugs. It keeps them in place, and the tissue will encrust over them if you do everything right. I've not had the same experience the others were describing with nuisance algae. Since the corals just went through the stress of shipping and acclimation, plus now they are in an entirely different home (different water, different flow, different lighting, different photoperiod, different food....), I would personally not stress them further.

I love a variety of fish too. The Regal Angel strikes me as a no-no in a reef tank. Have you heard or seen differently? It truly is gorgeous, but along with the tangs will add significantly to your bioload and pollute the water around the clock. Even with the few large fish I have now, I think I'd prefer a bunch of tiny fish instead. And how come you don't have a Blue Damsel on the list?

[Purple Haze]

"FW duty"= flatworm duty i'd guess.

Coris Wrassies=not reef safe, from the ones i've seen.

[melev]

Yellow Coris Wrasses and the Lemon Meringue Wrasse (it has a white belly) are both fine in a reef tank.

[rulesmith]

Just looked at salwaterfish, and looked at the pictures there. it looks to me to be a red coris wrasse adult. It says monitor for how reef safe it is. So far he has left my little hermits and snails alone. I did see him go after a bristle worm. I guess all I can do now is monitor, and hope I do not have to remove 500 lbs. of live rock out. ahh well.

[melev]

A Red Coris wrasse is not reef-safe. You might be able to see where it goes into the sand for the night, and then scoop it up in one deft motion with a sturdy net before it can awaken and blast away.

[NexDog]

FW - Flat Worms, yep.

Marc, thanks so much for your post and you are so right. I have 10 acros now - all of a good size (i.e. not one branch frags). I won't be adding any more SPS for 2 months at least as I want to get the Vortechs in and get the flow going first. One exception is the Monti caps I have put on order. If I get a call on those I will put them in but only those. I know I've been moving fast but like I said before, it's not like I just dumped in 200lbs of uncured rock. I cured it and introduced it slowly. I've always treated my biological filter with care and attention. The rock went in 3 months ago, yes....

As for the fish, I had 7 in there to start. Six weeks ago I introduced two more (flame angel and juvie emperor). End of this week I'm introducing 6 more. Then the biological filter has 2 months to adjust and I'll be adding 5-6 more. So will have 20 fish at the 5-6 month mark in a 450g system where everything is introduced over time.

With the mandarins I'm trying to get them to eat baby brine at the moment. The pods have a fuge to breed and multiply in. If this shipment comes in okay I'll order another 4 bottles in 2 weeks too putting half in the fuge and half in the display.

I know it's not a race but I'm keen to get it to a point where I'm happy with it quickly and then let it develop and mature. I don't think I'm being over-zelous. I spend alot of time on RC and online researching everything. I guess time will tell if I've been foolhardy but right now it seems I'm doing okay. What I'm saying is that systems can be built quickly if it's done right and we this often on RC. I'm no pro but I've learned alot and continue to learn everyday.

Finally, on the biological front, Iwan's tank has 42 fish and his system is smaller than mine. I think I'll be going the Prodibio route as he says using those products is what enables him to have a high bioload. Fish-wise my bioload is tiny and at the end of this week I'll have 15 fish in there introduced over a four month period. A biolfilter is something that can develop very quickly so my fish stocking and stock list doesn't concern me in the least. Introducing 35-45 fish over the course of a year or more bears no risk to the biolfilter (IMO) and with products like Bioptim and Biodigest to help, I'm very positive that I can accomplish this.

So in summary, no more SPS for at least 2 months while I concentrate on the tank itself (flow and hooking up chiller). On the fish front, I'm kind of decided but open to arguments against my plan. I'm just sure the biolfilter ca keep up. I might not do the whole 45 fish on that list though because as the tank gets stock, I'll be continually re-evaluating the situation.

On to the Regal Angel. From what I've read in the Reef Fishes forum (where I spend alot of time), the general consensus that out of all the larger angels the Emperor and the Regal come with the least risks. But like with all fish, it depends on the fish. I really do love this fish. That and the Clown Tang are my favourites and I simply have to throw caution to the wind and try.

Lastly the water issue. Tap water is 0.68, the RODI comes out at 0.02 which is great. The reservoir where the RODI outputs to is 0.28. I do keep it covered as much as possible but I guess stuff has gradually built up. I'll scrub it down when that 50g is empty.

[melev]

While live brine (nauptilii) will definitely help, mandarins need a steady supply of copepods in their diet. Hopefully you'll have enough of both.

Let me be sure to commend you on your research. Reading all you can will usually end in success more often than failure. However, our hearts, our eyes and those darn vendors are good at getting us worked up over some stunning fish or coral and we decide we must have it. So try to be strong, stick to your plan and resist.

So far, the Prodibio route hasn't really given me any reason to think it can reduce PO4 or nitrates, but I've only dosed twice. My Calcium Reactor is a problem at the moment, as the effluent is 1.0 in PO4, so I'll have to get that handled. The tank is .25 to .5, but the output of the Phosban Reactor is .03

You'll get that stunning display, and you'll have every reason to be proud of it. I'm just going to try to put a few ankle weights on you for a bit, to slow you down if possible.

[dgasmd]

On the coral plugs. I've had a few and so have pretty much everyone I know. They come seeded with nuissance algae even though they look pretty clean. They scrub them before shipping out to the US and other parts. I am surprised to see melev have not had the same issues, but they are extremely common. It is up to you, but I still think that getting rid of the plug and re-gluing is far easier than trying to get rid of the algae later on. And it will not happen next week, but rather in 2-4 months down the road.

As far as the water, I leave alone the way it i. You are doing too much for too little in terms of scrubbing containers and such for such a tiny amount of nothing. There is always a point of diminishing returns for everything and this is it buddy.

The fish. I would certainly get rid of a few fish in your list. One is the clown tang. Along with the achiles and the sohal, they are the nastiest fish ever. In time, you will regreat it. Again, that time may be a year down the road when your reef is settle and growing well and you now have to tear it up to get it out. Along the same lines goes for Imperator Angel, Flame Angel, and Coral Beauty. They will in time start picking at things. I've had the same experience with the flame as have 3 other people local to me and 4 people I can think of where I lived previously. They may be fine now, but regardless of feeding and such they will develop to pick at things over time. The regal angel is a toss up. If you have no fleshy LPS like bubble corals, open brains, acanthastreas, etc then I would say OK. I only keep acros and montis and mine has not touched any. Greg Schiemer has one for 7 years and has had the same experience. My buddy in MD got one and it decimated about $10,000 worth of acanthastreas and other corals over night. Your choice though. I would also get rid of the 6-line wrasse. Extremely nasty fish as little as they are!!!

The mandarin. This fish is certainly doomed for demise over the next few weeks. Hardly any ever get to eat anything else other than copepods. Even when they do, they still need a healthy supply of copepods for their primary dietary needs. A single fish can easily consume over 2000 pods in one day. Copepods ahve a 30 day life cycle before they are of reproductive age, so if you are adding 10 bottles of the stuff you order, which I have used in the past and can tell you hardly contains many of them, you are still not doing much for them. Brine shrimp has very poor nutrional value unless ou are hatching them, gut loading them with phyto, and then feeding it to a fish within the first 2 days so the hatch still has the yolk sac attached to it (nutrional). The other alternative to make them nutritious is wait until the brine is larger and gut load them with cyclopeeze befor feeding to the fish. The real question after all this is: are you willing to do all this work daily with cultures and such for a single tiny fish and still an extremely poor chance of survival when you could just wait a good 9 months and then just simply add the fish??? The answer is yours........

Just some suggestions, so take them for what they are worth to you................

[jnarowe]

Gabriel The main problem with my water is not TDS but varying levels of pH, nitrate and phosphate. I pulled my hair out for months over phosphate problems in my FW planted tank until I went to RO/DI.

QUick note about RO/DI...having a higher level of TDS in your holding container means that somehow it is becoming contaminated. I would suggest installing a new 1/4" line to it, as well as draining and wiping it down with an alcohol soaked rag.

You could also very easily put a DI canister after your holding tank and before your top-off. That would scrub the rest of the TDS off and would take a very long time to be exhausted.

On the coral plugs...I have not had enough experience to comment on the plugs but I will say that even when I glue a frag onto a rock, algae is still a problem to contend with. I believe that is because my system is still young and I don't have the algae under control. I am reducing lighting time but I see a general dying off anyway. At some point it will equalize and not to hammer those of you who are more experience reefers, but algae is very easy to control by removing nutrients that it uses and having a light nap in the middle of the day. Just turning off the lamps for one hour in the middle of the day will greatly reduce nuisance algae and in the case of my lengthy experimentation, completey eliminate it.

[TJcop]

I (unfortunately) must agree that the plugs do bring in unwanted items. Not just algae, but Aiptasia, bugs, etc. I've fallen victim to Aiptasia and algae. I now cut off as much of the plug without cutting into the coral. I also dip my corals.

As I set up my new system, I'm not taking a chance with anything! Quarantine, dip, seperate grow out...yeah, alot of work, but I think it's worth it.

[jnarowe]

what are you dipping them in?

[TJcop]

I dip them into Iodine and/or FW exit to prevent bugs.

[ricordiaking]

You should get a pair of Wide Band Clownfish (Amphiprion Latezonatus), you would really love em.

[dgasmd]

Shouldn't be too hard for him to get them there. Here, that is another story altogether. I have had my eye out for a couple of years now trying to land a pair. If you know a source, by all means take me out of my misery!!!!!!!!!

[NexDog]

Originally posted by melev
While live brine (nauptilii) will definitely help, mandarins need a steady supply of copepods in their diet. Hopefully you'll have enough of both.

Let me be sure to commend you on your research. Reading all you can will usually end in success more often than failure. However, our hearts, our eyes and those darn vendors are good at getting us worked up over some stunning fish or coral and we decide we must have it. So try to be strong, stick to your plan and resist.

So far, the Prodibio route hasn't really given me any reason to think it can reduce PO4 or nitrates, but I've only dosed twice. My Calcium Reactor is a problem at the moment, as the effluent is 1.0 in PO4, so I'll have to get that handled. The tank is .25 to .5, but the output of the Phosban Reactor is .03

You'll get that stunning display, and you'll have every reason to be proud of it. I'm just going to try to put a few ankle weights on you for a bit, to slow you down if possible.

I think I will hold out for a month or two and wait and see what the consensus is because alot of people have started using using due to Iwan's tank. He also states that his DSB is largely responsible for his denitrification. I'm thinking of doing a remote DSB in a similar plastic tank as to what I'm using for the RODI reservoir but as sand costs me $10 per pound (2kg) I will be getting the sand from a beach. The RDSB would have to be outside which makes me nervous. Some ill-minded individual could pour bleach in it etc. I'll probably make some neat box out of wood and house the DSB container in there along with the chiller. But this is down the road if I can't control nitrates. But with my mainly BB system and regular sand siphoning I hope I won't have a problem.

[jnarowe]

Keep in mind that the "sand" that is used in most captive reefs is crushed coral. I don't know what you have in Japan, but you need to collect from an area that has coral sand.

[NexDog]

Originally posted by dgasmd
The fish. I would certainly get rid of a few fish in your list. One is the clown tang. Along with the achiles and the sohal, they are the nastiest fish ever. In time, you will regreat it. Again, that time may be a year down the road when your reef is settle and growing well and you now have to tear it up to get it out. Along the same lines goes for Imperator Angel, Flame Angel, and Coral Beauty. They will in time start picking at things. I've had the same experience with the flame as have 3 other people local to me and 4 people I can think of where I lived previously. They may be fine now, but regardless of feeding and such they will develop to pick at things over time. The regal angel is a toss up. If you have no fleshy LPS like bubble corals, open brains, acanthastreas, etc then I would say OK. I only keep acros and montis and mine has not touched any. Greg Schiemer has one for 7 years and has had the same experience. My buddy in MD got one and it decimated about $10,000 worth of acanthastreas and other corals over night. Your choice though. I would also get rid of the 6-line wrasse. Extremely nasty fish as little as they are!!!

The coral beauty does seem to nip a bit. Nothing serious though and I can live with it for now. The juvie emperor is also nipping at the brain a little. The flame angel isn't nipping at all. I know what you're saying about the clown tang but I really want one. I've wanted one since before I knew what it was....

The 6-Line is one fish on the list that I'm not so keen on. I hear they like to eat flatworms so was thinking about one for preventative measures.

The mandarin. This fish is certainly doomed for demise over the next few weeks. Hardly any ever get to eat anything else other than copepods. Even when they do, they still need a healthy supply of copepods for their primary dietary needs. A single fish can easily consume over 2000 pods in one day. Copepods ahve a 30 day life cycle before they are of reproductive age, so if you are adding 10 bottles of the stuff you order, which I have used in the past and can tell you hardly contains many of them, you are still not doing much for them. Brine shrimp has very poor nutrional value unless ou are hatching them, gut loading them with phyto, and then feeding it to a fish within the first 2 days so the hatch still has the yolk sac attached to it (nutrional). The other alternative to make them nutritious is wait until the brine is larger and gut load them with cyclopeeze befor feeding to the fish. The real question after all this is: are you willing to do all this work daily with cultures and such for a single tiny fish and still an extremely poor chance of survival when you could just wait a good 9 months and then just simply add the fish??? The answer is yours........

I'm hearing you loud and clear and I'm already regretting it. The male mandarin is dead. Not sure what happened but it didn't look good from the day I brought it home. It was always gasping for breath and I'm not sure why. I have a powerhead and an airstone in that QT tank. I will do my best with the female and if I fail I will wait until the end of the year for sure. I think I might just put her straight in the display - I think her chances are better there.

[NexDog]

Originally posted by jnarowe
Keep in mind that the "sand" that is used in most captive reefs is crushed coral. I don't know what you have in Japan, but you need to collect from an area that has coral sand.

I'm pretty sure any type of sand would be okay whether its argonite or silica based?

[Hop]

Nice to see that this thing is up and running. When I left town for training, I think you were just getting rock in the thing

I'm trying to play catch up on all my subscribed threads! Between you, jnarowe and melev, I'm going to be reading for months

[NexDog]

Originally posted by ricordiaking
You should get a pair of Wide Band Clownfish (Amphiprion Latezonatus), you would really love em.

Not sure my resident Clarkii duo would be happy with that.