This hobby needs to rethink the use of Live rock? :) - Page 3

Ron · #51 09/01/2004, 05:34 AM

How much does uncured rock run these days? Remeber, most of the prices you see do not include shipping. Since I live on the east coast the shipping is pretty high. I used Fedex's web site to find out how much it is for 4 day ground shipping which turns out to be $35.24. So, a 60 lb. box costs $80 - $35.24 = $44.76. That works out to be $0.75/lb.

I have also read the threads about what's inside the rocks (bacteria) is the really important part. However, if one considers the number of people using cultured rock like TBS, Walt Smith, and home made rocks a la GARF it makes you wonder how important that really is.

Ron

gregt · #52 09/01/2004, 05:43 AM

Absolutes in this hobby don't generally work. You can't just say LR is not useful. It's not that simple.

LR allows you to set up a tank a whole lot quicker.
LR will allow you to add more load the your system a lot quicker
Base rock is cheaper
LR will be "prettier" faster.
LR will allow more "newbie" mistakes in the infancy of a system

Bottom line is that base rock will be live rock after some time. If you don't mind waiting then they are the same thing.

Ehydo · #53 09/01/2004, 09:38 AM

At http://www.hirocks.com/Our_Products.html the shipping is included with the price listed.

jeffbrig · #54 09/01/2004, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron
I have also read the threads about what's inside the rocks (bacteria) is the really important part. However, if one considers the number of people using cultured rock like TBS, Walt Smith, and home made rocks a la GARF it makes you wonder how important that really is.

It sounds like you're suggesting that the cultured rock doesn't have any bacteria inside it? On the contrary, I believe aquacultured rock that's spent a few years in the ocean is every bit as live as the rocks on the natural reef nearby.

Personally, I have no desire to pull live rock from a natural reef, whether it comes from a rubble zone or not (how can you be sure?). Using dry base rock is totally unappealing to me, so I will buy aquacultured rock from TBS, gulf-view, or one of the other aquaculture suppliers here in Florida. Sure, I will end up paying more to go this route, but who wants to drop $10k on a large tank setup and wait a year before it starts to look natural?

Just my 2Â¢

minireef75 · #55 09/01/2004, 10:30 AM

So how much is hirocks paying you again?..JK

KwajRocks · #56 09/01/2004, 11:18 AM

I have to put in a plug for TBS. The rock they sent me was beautiful and teeming with life. A bad guy or two hitched, but they were "easy" to eliminate (except for one Mantis shrimp who eventually crawled right into a DIY trap in broad daylight). And interestingly, some of the supposed bad guys have turned out not to be so bad after all and a load of fun to watch. The various life forms have been very fun for our family to watch, especially for my kids and cat, who keep the front glass all smudged up!!

I do have two new tanks being set up, (as soon as Mitch comes and repairs my front glass - another saga for another thread) and this thread has helped me see that maybe I'll get some dry rock for the "bridges" I'm hoping to aquascape into my designs.

By the way Jeffbrig, I notice from your signature, you must have visited Alabama

Flanders · #57 09/01/2004, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Bottom line is that base rock will be live rock after some time. If you don't mind waiting then they are the same thing.

LOL. You started it off right greg, and then ended it with an absolute (JK). I don't believe base rock will EVER achieve the species diversity that the best quality live rock has (as in, Fla cultured rock that has never left the water.)

Otherwise, I totally agree.

greenb · #58 09/01/2004, 11:37 AM

"I don't believe base rock will EVER achieve the species diversity that the best quality live rock has (as in, Fla cultured rock that has never left the water.) "

Why wouldn't it? Assume that you fill a tank with dry rock and put a few pieces of Florida Cultured rock in the tank. Wouldn't the diversity of species eventually colonize the dry rock and make it pretty much exactly the same as the florida cultured rock??

It's pretty much the same scenario as what TBS is doing. Take a bunch of rocks, throw them in the ocean, a year later you have new live rock. Just on a much smaller scale.

Ehydo · #59 09/01/2004, 11:48 AM

That is exactly what it will do Greenb. Most of the people that do not like the idea of dry rock do not want to wait for it to culture. That is there option.

This thread is not saying that you have to do this is is suggesting a cost effective alternative to LR. Of course you still have to buy some LR to seed the dry rock.

Why wouldn't the dry rock acheive the same biodiversity as the LR? It is the ideal home for all those critters. Plenty of new homes.

Flanders · #60 09/01/2004, 11:51 AM

Because nothing achieves the same biodiversity in our tanks as it does in the ocean. They're doing it in the ocean, you're doing it in a box of water.

gatohoser · #61 09/01/2004, 12:02 PM

Well its still the same rock coming out of the ocean as it is in your tank. You are both right i believe.

If you buy 100% LR you end up statistically with more species as not every rock has an equal amount of species colonizing it.

But If you buy 2 rocks of LR and the rest BR then you can be assured that if there are enuf of the species to mate that you will be cloning the rocks that are live.

It all depends on how long you have and how much you care about getting the most types of species in your tanks.

gatohoser · #62 09/01/2004, 12:03 PM

I also am one to believe that muck has lots of species and if you've ever taken a look at rubble in a refugium it is SUPER colonized and im sure this would seed BR tanks with enuf for me to be happy.

Ron · #63 09/01/2004, 12:18 PM

Man, I wish I was getting some sort of kickback to support my hobby. Heck, I have never even ordered from them so I don't know what the stuff is like. I just wanted to show that it is an inexpensive alternative even when considering uncured live rock.

This it turning out to be a really interesting thread.

Ron

Paul B · #64 09/01/2004, 02:32 PM

You mean you guys were filling your entire tanks up with live rock. At $10.00 a lb. I have spent $1,000.00 on a lot of things but not on rocks. I collected most of my rock myself in the Caribbean and Hawaii but most of it I bleached in the hotel room before I carried it on the plane. The rest of it I either built out of concrete or collected locally in New York, some of it, as was said is asphalt that was dumped in the ocean 50 years ago.
Use dry rock as base rock then if you like, use live rock. Those tube worms from live rock will multiply if conditions are right and if they are not right then even the worms on the freshly collected live rock will die anyway. I have not put any live rock in my tank since before most people on this board were born and I have tube worms all over the place. (I do use some real sea water though) My reef is the oldest on RC and it was started with dry rock. There was no live rock in 1972. It will take about three months to cycle, live rock or not. The tank will have much less problems as it ages not in months but in years.
You do have to put in some bacteria from some source though, either another tank or the sea.
Here is a piece of my reef. The rock to the right of the bottle is asphalt. The skinny rock that snakes over the bottle is cement, the bottle was Grand Marnier. I first drank it then I broke it, glued most of it back together and stuck some cement on it.
Most of the rest of the rock I don't remember if I built it or collected it but almost none of it was bought as live rock. Don't get me wrong, live rock is great if you can afford it and it does come with interesting stuff I am just saying that it is not needed in the quantities that most people use it.
Paul

greenb · #65 09/01/2004, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Flanders
Because nothing achieves the same biodiversity in our tanks as it does in the ocean. They're doing it in the ocean, you're doing it in a box of water.

But as soon as you order your rock and it sits for a day on the dock then spends a day or 2 to ship across the country to get to you. The rock you get automatically has less biodiversity on it then the rock you left in the ocean. At that point you are essentially (if you don't add anymore live rock) stuck with that set or level of biodiversity. Correct?? Hopefully we agree on that?

IF you can, now add a bunch of dry rock to your tank. Eventually all of that dry rock will have the same exact biodiversity as the rock you took out of the ocean.

Am I missing something?

mcsock · #66 09/01/2004, 02:48 PM

When I set up my prop tank, I got lbs of HiRocks and picked up lbs of rubble rock locally. Now you really can not tell the difference in the rocks from color or coraline growth, only the dry rocks are much larger than the 1.25 lb rubble rock I used to seed them with.

Putawaywet · #67 09/01/2004, 03:00 PM

I'll refrain from commenting on the already on going discussion with regard to biodiversity levels and just add one observation I haven't seen already mentioned.

When I set up my current tank I did so with dry base rock from www.reeferrocks.com and then seeded that with a mix of rock from my old tank and some rock aquired from the LFS.

What makes my situation different is that I dry-fit everything together first out in my garage, and once I got things the way I liked them, I started cementing everything together. I built caves, overhangs etc. It was kinda like putting together a big jig-saw puzzle. Then, after everything had been properly cured, I just lowered the 2 or 3 modular pieces I had built down into my tank. This saved me countless hours of frustration trying to stack rock with 3/4's of my arm in the tank.

Not only is my structure extremely solid, but over the last year I have epoxied nearly everything directly to my reef. Have yet to have a coral take a tumble.

Brett

amcarrig · #68 09/01/2004, 03:07 PM

I'll never use live rock again and use only dead rock from www.hirocks.com.

With my original piece of live rock came hairy crabs, bryopsis, aiptasia and anemone majanos. If that's the variety of species you guys are looking for in live rock, you can have mine

greenb · #69 09/01/2004, 03:11 PM

I plan on doing that same thing Brett, except I ordered dry rock from Hirocks.

Paul B · #70 09/01/2004, 03:15 PM

Greenb, no you are not missing anything except that the live rock spends a lot more time out of the sea than two days before it gets to you. Live rock is used mainly for the bacteria in and on it. As I said, if conditions are right some, a very small part of the fauna on the rock may reproduce for a time. Don't expect all those sponges and worms to be there in a few years. But the bacteria will last forever (maybe) If you are worried about not aquiring some biodiversity think about the corals you are buying, there is some other life forms living on the coral that you are getting. Live rock is great but if you can not afford a lot of it don't worry. Just get some and use dry rock.
This is a hobby and it is possable not to go broke and have a great tank.
Paul

The Claw · #71 09/01/2004, 03:16 PM

I started the hobby with it, but totally agree that Non live rock is just fine if you can seed it. I love the idea of paying hundreds of dollars to fly rocks half way across the globe. I did choose to just let the rocks colonize my sand. At least I wasn't completely duped.

fishtanker · #72 09/01/2004, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Flanders
Because nothing achieves the same biodiversity in our tanks as it does in the ocean. They're doing it in the ocean, you're doing it in a box of water.

Correct but, once you put it into your box of water its now in a closed system and whatever biodiversity that didn;t die off will now be in your tank. So putting some dry base rock in to be seeded with the LR is a much cheaper alternative and the results will be the same.

Piero · #73 09/01/2004, 03:19 PM

Dry rock is live rock after some time in your tank...the only difference is, you paid alot less for it!

Believe me, neither you, nor your livestock will know the difference once everything is established.

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely NO REASON to assume rock that was once dry won't colonize with the same diversity of microfauna as fresh "live" rock once it has been seeded.

The process of seeding your tank, by definition, is introducing microfauna from the ocean...via another person's tank.....and we all know....that all microfauna in any tank...originally came from the ocean......

the microfauna you seed the tank with, regardless of the source (rubble, a few live rocks, livestock) all comes from the ocean originally...

Paul B · #74 09/01/2004, 03:21 PM

Another piece of "Live" cement rock in my reef. Coraline algae loves cement.
Paul

greenb · #75 09/01/2004, 03:23 PM

Thank Paul... I do have a 90g setup and yes I did buy all live rock to fill it. Now I'm setting up a 45g cube and wasn't planning on spending that much money again for rocks. So I ordered the dry rock from HiRock and will be using that in the 45g and seeding from my 90g.

Sounds like I'm on the right track.

This is a good thread... Lots of useful info.

Thanks
Bob