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#51
08/23/2007, 06:04 PM
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__________________
Cheers! |
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#52
08/23/2007, 06:05 PM
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__________________
Cheers! |
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#53
08/23/2007, 06:05 PM
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I think it important to listen to what each other is saying rather than prepare with pre-written statements. I do believe that mankind can have a serious impact upon the Earth; I'm from New Jersey for Pete's sake. I do believe that there are consequences for some of our actions. The hunting of buffalo to near extinction, the removal of wolves from Yellowstone, the killing of sharks for their fins, etc... It can have a devastating effect if not done with some sort of realization that everything is connected to everything. As for the climate, I'm just not prepared to jump on the pseudo-scientific bandwagon and claim that it is due to mankind. I certainly entertain the possibility; I won't say that it can't happen. Considering the planet is estimated to be 4 billion years old, recorded history is a very small percentage of this. Even smaller are the climatic records of the world. There is indirect proof that this world has had it's share of issues; I can accept this notion. What I do not except is the idea that the Earth is a stable environment and that the past 200 years of temperate climate that we have had is the norm. Humans (if we survive) are going to have to go through all KINDS of catastrophes; I'm not talking about a tsunami, earthquake, Cat 5 hurricanes, or volcanos. Most likely, there will be another ice age. Probably not during my lifetime, but within the next few hundred years (this is a blip in the big scheme of time). I accept the fact that the world is a very volatile place and has been for a long time. I'm just fortunate enough to live at a time where there are no dinosaurs and no ice age. There are some things that mankind is powerless to change; scientists are far from "all knowing". They are human and quite prone to making mistakes. This whole thing just stinks of human arrogance.
Getting back to the environmental issue; I do what I think is right. It is the whole phony environmental movement that turns me off. All of the preaching with none of the practicing. Multi-millionaires going around the Earth in their private jets and limo convoys telling everyone else what slobs they are. When questioned about their over-usage, they spout out silly terms like, "Carbon Credits" or "Carbon Neutral". Items which have shown to have absolutely no scientific validity whatsoever. People (like me) with animals removed from their natural habitats and placed into smaller ones for amusement purposes. Have any of you actually considered how much energy is required to manufacture a hybrid vehicle?? In all honesty, when I compare my lifestyle to that of the new age "environmentalist", I have a long way to go before I can come close to pumping out the CO2 emissions that they put out. Actions speak louder than words, and this new age movement is void of much action; certainly not of words; mostly name calling. I am also turned off by Americans who think that because they are riding the enviro-bandwagon, that they can turn their noses up at everyone else. I'm a right winger (I'm still laughing at THAT one!!), I'm an idiot, I'm a moron, I'm stupid, I'm clueless, etc... As if their opinions have been given to them by some mystical powers of intellect that escapes everyone else. I question their ideals, and they immediately go on the name calling offense. As I stated before, when the environmentalists lead by example rather than urging world governments to enact tyrannical laws, I'll probably be more open to the idea of being more eco-friendly. In my second post, I asked how many of you environmentalist turned off your air conditioners this summer. Not one answer of yes or no, just more name calling and empty preaching. I asked who rides their bikes to work, and still silence. Two very simple questions and they were avoided. And yet people wonder why folks like me haven't climbed aboard.
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The irony of 2007 is a disgustingly fat multi-millionaire trying to tell me I need to cut back on my consumption. |
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#54
08/23/2007, 06:06 PM
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I have seen this sort of thread pop up in the responsible reefkeeping forum and I made a very simple point about what seems to be happening. I will repeat it here.
You are all arguing over something much deeper than if there is a significant impact from humanity on our planet. You are debating if you are a good person or a bad person. And everybody wants to be a good person. Allow me to explain. People in our modern times have life pretty easy. We do not have to kill our meat and we do not have to grow our grain. We just stop by a store and pick it up. That has freed up alot of spare time that people didnt have a century ago. During this free time people have started to do some real introspection and thinking about who they are and what attributes define them. Some people look at themselves as individuals dependent upon their own intellect and standing apart from society. Their self evaluation of weither they are a good person stems from their ability to impact the world around them in a positive way. Other people see themselves as part of a greater whole and look at the concensus of important issues in the larger scale. Both types of people see the need to help determine if they are good or bad (and they hopefully dont want to be considered bad). The real difference is that one type of personality looks at the problems of the world from a different perspective than the other personallity type. When presented with an issue like global warming and mass extinction, the line between good and bad should be obvious but it isnt. (Although it seems like it is to everyone from their own point of view.) Some people listen to the opinions of the media and popular sentiment and find that they not only agree, but would like to do more to show how noble their intentions are. This is how groups like Greenpeace, WWF and PETA find recruits. These people see a community that supports their idea of goodness and reinforces it. They are even allowed to excell and feel like they are truly doing something about the evils of the world. Sounds like a good person to me. Other people (like myself) are not so willing to accept the ideas that are being put forth in the popular media. We do not see the world as black and white, and definetly dont believe everything we hear. Given the right circumstances we could easily find ourselves in lockstep with society, but we do ask that our questions are answered in a satisfactory method first. We agree that something is currently happening from humanities impact on our earth, but the final clenching analysis is sorely lacking. And without careful thought about all ramnifications of our actions, we worry that sudden activities will have severe repercusions. In fact, we are not altogether convinced as to what the real problems are. And no action should be taken until the problems are identified. Again, we are good people who are just a little cautious about making our current situation worse. All the arguing in the world can not make a persons personality change. We come to our conclusions not out of spite, but out of a desire to be good people. It is the same deep seated pasion that drives religion. Sometimes there needs to be understanding of that. What we are all arguing is if we are good people. And if we are arguing, the answer is probably no.
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I ain't there yet, but I'm getting better everyday. |
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#55
08/23/2007, 06:10 PM
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With all due respect to the right you have to your opinion, with the exception of one or two posts, your statements have been more stubbornly "dogmatic" to the contrary than anyone who disagrees with you. You seem to have the same overreaction of those you criticize, it just happens to be in in the opposite direction.
Reports, evidence, and opinions about this topic fall on a sliding scale. While I would disagree that all saltwater fish will disappear from the Earth by 2048, there is definitely current examples and evidence pointing the damage we have done (i.e. Chesapeake Bay, Red Drum fish, Oyster beds, Cod fisheries, Crown of Thorns Starfish, Box Jellyfish, the list goes on) and what could happen if it continues. These are things that I wouldn't expect someone living in Pittsburg or Lake of the Ozarks to be aware of (not because people there are dumb, it's just not a part of their lives), but calling it a "scam," "nonsense," "baseless" and "liberal propaganda" is just as silly as claiming the sky is falling. |
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#56
08/23/2007, 06:14 PM
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also, calling anyone who disagrees with you a fool is just because you can't argue the point. it's dismissive and unintelligent.  this is for everybody. if you disagree with someone, why not politely explain why, and then listen to what they have to say, rather than being an arrogant twit and acting like you are some kind of genius with all the answers. it isn't intelligent and it isn't fair to other people who may, unfortunately, be trying to learn from this thread  if we can't treat each other as peers, can we at least treat each other as competent human beings? good god what has mankind come to? 
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Dan "What's money worth if you can't face yourself in the mirror every day?" Last edited by The Reefer91; 08/23/2007 at 06:22 PM. |
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#57
08/23/2007, 06:19 PM
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He said (I must say with more talent then me) exactly what I was composing in response to your question. |
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#58
08/23/2007, 06:30 PM
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Oh, Bean animal. I just noticed on your mini profile,
"you're welcome". I served eight years on an M1A1 main battle tank.
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I ain't there yet, but I'm getting better everyday. |
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#59
08/23/2007, 06:34 PM
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I find it very refreshing to hear the other side of the debate on global warming from Old Salty and BeanAnimal. You guys have pretty much stated everything I believe, so I guess there is not much else I can say, except that Im tired of having "global warming" shoved down my throat by some of the most hypocritical people in the world. Politicians and celebrities who FLY all over the world in PRIVATE jets and ride around in Limos. And even here by Reef Keepers who "waste" more energy than the average person in a VERY selfish hobby that kills many fish unnecessarily.
Overfishing is another issue and something we have caused and need to address. Not that we should not try to reduce pollution, we should but its not going to stop "global warming". |
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#60
08/23/2007, 06:35 PM
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1) You have just made a point that you did not intend to. Most of the planet is 100% clueless to the science of this topic but gladly sign on because it feels good. They don't understand a lick of it yet they have strong opinions that are "valued" by your side and used as a battering ram against those who do not believe. 2) Do you really care to know where I have traveled, lived, worked? Do you really care to know what my depth of knowledge and experience are? My apptitude? IQ? Understanding of geography, science, history? Some of us out here in the "sheltered" land know a lot more than you would "expect" us to know. Some of us don't have to live next to something to understand it or talk about it. Does living next to the beach make you more informed about the environement? Honestly? I have surfed plenty of breaks with garbage and needles, with coral and urchins, with naked topless hotties and guys wearing nut huggers. Do I qualify to have an opinion now? I have been in coal mines all over this country, 2000' under the ocean in Nova Scotia, drank beer on plenty of remote beaches and seen my share of people damage their environment. I have worked in and under dams, on waste sites and other industrial venues. Please don't think we are all beneath understanding what you "the informed" environmentalists understand. The difference between us is simple. I KNOW that most folks are not informed of MOST things. I just don't assume that ANYBODY fits into that mold before they are given a chance to articulate their position. It is convenient that you discount people based on where they live, not what they know or understand. |
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#61
08/23/2007, 06:37 PM
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There's a major difference. |
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#62
08/23/2007, 06:40 PM
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Thanks again! You guys deserve more than a pat on the back. I wish I knew a better way to show my appreciation other than a cheesy signature. |
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#63
08/23/2007, 06:47 PM
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With regard to over fishing... yeah I can not see anything good in the near future with regard to that. The only way to slow it down is to go after the people harvesting the fish. There is just no way you can slow the global demand down. Remove one demand and another will pop up to replace it.
On a tangent.... I just saw a program that inidicated that the "salmon ladders" at most dams don't help much and that the salmon populations are drooping more and more every year. I have yet to do any more research to get both sides of the story... but it certainly does not sound good at first glance. The argument is something to the effect that they have to travel the vertical distance in a short period of time and it takes too much energy. However, the brief rebuke I read said that the ladders have shallow steps and very low water velocities, so the salmon do not have to work very hard at all to climb them. Interesting subject to say the least. I am sure we will hear more about it as time goes on. |
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#64
08/23/2007, 06:52 PM
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"These are things that I wouldn't expect someone living in Pittsburg or Lake of the Ozarks to be aware of (not because people there are dumb, it's just not a part of their lives)"
oh goodies, we're now moving from tasteless insults to geographical stereotyping 
__________________
Dan "What's money worth if you can't face yourself in the mirror every day?" |
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#65
08/23/2007, 06:56 PM
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Bean at least you live in the right color state.... if you were from the other color you would really be stupid. jk
people from lake of the ozarks could never be as informed the enlightened holywood people like clooney and martin sheen and ben affleck the smug is dense in here |
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#66
08/23/2007, 06:59 PM
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Dan "What's money worth if you can't face yourself in the mirror every day?" |
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#67
08/23/2007, 07:13 PM
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Is everyone taking a deep breath now?
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#68
08/23/2007, 07:16 PM
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I'd also lke to point out that way out here in backwoods retardland where we are all morons, we are also having one of the mildest summers in decades. It hit 100 for the first time this summer just last week. That does not happen. I could take the opposite approach and say that we are experiencing global cooling based on my local climate, but that would make me a smug, naive, arrogant twit. In the mean time I'll just have to cut down some small trees and warm the place up
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#69
08/23/2007, 07:24 PM
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__________________
"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year." |
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#70
08/23/2007, 07:29 PM
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I still haven't seen a list of recently extinct animals that would support the claim "But the loss of species isn't gradual. It's happening fast -- and getting faster, the researchers say. I did a pretty exhaustive online search and only came up with information on the late Devonian, Permian and Ordovician extinction events, which we definately had nothing to do with. If they expect me to belive the seas and oceans will be completely devoid of fish life in 40 1/2 years they need to do better than statements like that. I feel like I do my part, much more than many others, much less than some. I separate the aluminum and plastics, use CF lighting in my house, drive a late-model 4 banger that gets 30+, and will have only 1 child. I also keep the AC at 72, have bonfires in the backyard, run a few large reef tanks, and sometimes have the computer, stereo and TV on all at the same time. Most of what I do that is considered "positive for the environment" or "carbon neutral" is a function of me wanting to save money. I am ultimately a selfish, egocentric pig, but smart enough to label myself as such. I like comfort and amusement, and don't like it to be taken away. I will continue to strive to keep the comfort and amusement I have. I will never live like a monk, neither will 99.999% of all other Americans, regardless of their stance on the environment. Just the fact that we are all on this board, via PC, and have the time and education to be able to express our viewpoints electronically means that we are indulging in absolute decadence that has never before been know in all the history of mankind. It puts us all on an equal footing regardless of belief. I've spent enough money on my hobby to feed 15 third world families for 50 years. On a hobby, for gods sake! Is anyone here any better when you break down the numbers? Quote:
"Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood dimm'd tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity." - WB Yeats Sometimes we loose the anarchy, and sometimes it just comes.
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All Your Coral Are Belong To Us Last edited by reefshadow; 08/23/2007 at 07:38 PM. |
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#71
08/23/2007, 07:31 PM
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What I wouldn't do to have a nice fillet of orange roughy again. Too bad they're essentially gone. I guess I will settle for a piece of Patagonean Toothfish. What are they calling those these days? Marketing gurus renamed them Chilean Sea Bass and they were a hit. Just in time.
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Cheers! |
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#72
08/23/2007, 07:32 PM
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So ... how come when someone tells us that there are billions of stars in the universe we believe them, but when we see a sign that says WET PAINT we want to touch it to make sure?
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#73
08/23/2007, 07:41 PM
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To me it seems fairly hard to say what the next few hundred years holds for us. Some say that there's nothing we can do to change outcome X. Well, I believe it greatly depends on what X really is. Think of the technology mankind as come up with in the last two hundred years and new discovery is progressing in an exponential manner. Who knows what we'll be capable of in the next two hundred. Somebody mentioned the moon shifting and causing ecological change on the earth... in a few hundred or a thousand years, I wouldn't be surprised it we can reverse something like that.
Our species must evolve to master time and space if we will survive the next few billion years. It's a scientific fact that the earth will not be able to support life as we know it forever (unless of coarse sufficient technology is in place to project a synthetic environment. If you believe in parallel universes, we'll all be vaporized in a few hundred billion years anyhow. Cheers - it's been an interesting read so far.
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"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year." |
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#74
08/23/2007, 08:19 PM
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Yes... I know. It was about 4.5 billion years ago, give or take a few. That is, the collision that formed the moon and sent our planet wobbling, thus creating the basis for the seasons and the environment that we are enjoying today. |
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#75
08/23/2007, 08:26 PM
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Take care, Ron
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"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year." |
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