Is this ich and how can I help him?

[Newflee]

Justin,
I should say that my view on garlic use is anecdotal. I have had some success using it so far but I would not at this time claim that it "cures" parasite infestations. Used as a preventative in combination with quarantine may be the best way to use it. There are no solid scientific papers published on this so we are all being scientists when using it.
I personally think the theory of my last post is valid, but I don't think the use of oils is as good. I use fresh garlic chopped very fine with one of those hand operated "super chopper" things that you see on tv. Once the garlic is chopped fine, I mix it in with the feed whether it is fresh seafood or freshly thawed Hikari foods. I then feed. The fish generally eat both the tiny garlic pieces as well as the saturated seafood. My experience doing this has been in a 41000 gallon tank with hundreds of reef fish. In a population that large competition for food is more like nature and hardly anything that is ever put into that taak goes uneaten. If your fish are picky eaters you will want to be carefull about not fouling the tank with uneaten food.
To give you an idea of how much garlic is added to the large tank, the water actually has the smell of garlic. Garlic was first used in this tank due to the presence of sharks and inability to use chemical treatments. The garlic in my opinion has been effective as used. Untill a real study is done, we can only speculate if or why garlic is effective.
As far as nori goes, I have tried it and personally find that it is not worth the trouble. Most fish that I have kept would rather not eat it. Also if you are concerned about your tangs getting vegitable matter, most mature reef tanks have a wide variety of natural microalgae for them to pick at. Fish naturally pick at rocks and substrate for tiny food items constantly. They don't need the "Big meal" that a lot of people like to feed.
Anyway I don't want to get off topic.
The bottom line for me is:
-Use fressly chopped garlic
-Don't overfeed and perhaps the fish will eat the garlic itself
-try not to dilute the active compounds
-Don't ever add oils to a tank
-Always quarantine
-Document your results for future use


Lee

[twhitti]

New or TErry;
I have just found this thread when researching ICH. I have a question about a "fresh water dip" Is a FW dip not stressful to a salt water fish thereby makeing his overall condition worse?

Do you just put the fish into fresh water for 6-8 minutes and et him swim around?

Thanks,

Terry W

[Newflee]

FW dip is very stressfull, but the alternative is usually worse. If you have a healthy fish that appears to not have parasites, it will not be harmed by the FWD. If you have an infested and weakened fish, it will not thank you for the FWD but it may be the only thing that gives him relief from the adult stage parasites that are eating him alive. For the record I have never lost a fish ever from doing a FWD.
You must make sure that the FW is matched in ph and temp to the saltwater that the fish is being removed from. Also make sure that the FW is being aerated and don't use a net for transfering the fish out of the FW back to your tank, unless it is a poisonous species. Doing so could trap the newly removed bad guys and transfer back to tank. Use your hand.
Do not get any of the dip water in your tank.
Dips should be at least 5 mins if not 7. You will think he is going to die for the first 3 or 4 minutes, but he will usually get up and swim in the FW before he's finished with the treatment. Like I said, I have never lost anything to dipping but I can assure you I have saved hundreds.


Happy dipping



Lee

[TerryB]

Scientific evidence indicates that freshwater dips are of little value for treating ich. In one trial they determined that attached trophonts were unharmed after 18 hours in Freshwater. The cycts are too deeply embebbed to have any real effect. You may remove a few cysts, but it is certainly not worth the stress on the fish.
Terry B

[Newflee]

I have to disagree, based upon my own experience. Generally a fish that is infested to the point that a hobbiest takes action is problably too far gone, however at that point a FWD is like giving an injection to someone who is being suffocated as far as stress goes.
A healthy fish has no problems with a FWD and doing so can illiminate parsitic species such as flukes that are imune to "ich" treatments. While I don't claim FWD to be a cure for C. Iritans etc I feel it can give instant relief from the actively feeding stage. Of course more treatment is required to illiminate the other life stages of the parasite.


Lee


Ps Terry, I have discussed some of these things with you before. Just wondering, what "scientific evidence" are you refering to.

[TerryB]

Lee,
You can find this in Diseases of Aquatic Organisms Vol 1: 19-22, 1985 by Colorni.
"Most of the trophonts whose hosts had undergone hyposalinity treatment, including freshwater, for at least 18 hours, were still alive and occupied the same position in the host by the end of the experiment, following re-adatation to sea water. They later dropped from the fish, encysted, and the tomonts produced tomites."
HTH,
Terry B

[Newflee]

Terry, I will have to look into that paper. However, I will not adjust my own treatment regime based on it. I have had success with the systems I have described and wil continue to do FWD on all new arrivals.

Because I do not have the study in front of me, I can only guess from your statement that the study was bases more on Hyposalinity than FWD.
IMO the appropriate low salinity levels required could not be sustained for more than 10 minutes rather than 18 hours. Also of consideration is the time period that the salinity change takes place. Most organisms can survive a wide range of salinity if changes are not made rapidly.
If you have the study formatted in such a manner that it could be emailed to me that would be great. I think you have my email address.


Lee

[TerryB]

Lee,
Sorry, I do not have a scanner so I only have a paper copy of the study. I have a couple dozen copies of various studies on Cryptocaryon irritans from the scientific journals. I guess a scanner would be a good investment for me. This report is on the subject of manipulating the salinity as a treatment for C. I. It talks about a wide range of salinities including freshwater.
Here is another quote:
" However, in the present study, embedded trophonts did not seem to be affected by a freshwater treatment of the host for as long as 18 h."

There are many advantages to using hyposalinity therapy (I suggest a salinity of 14ppt not to be confused with SG) over copper treatment and it does work very efficiently. The treatment should last three weeks once the therapeutic salinity level is reached. I would encourage you to at least look into it.

BTW, you also asked for further information earlier about an immunostimulant called Beta glucan. Keep an eye out for the September issue of Advancced Aquarist Online (due out about September 15th I think). The editor tells me that they are making it the feature article. The article is called "Beta Glucan as a Biological Defense Modulator." While I am talking about magazine articles, you may be interested (since we also dicussed HLLE in this thread) in a three part series running in FAMA magazine starting in the September issue which is available right now.
Cheers,
Terry B

[Dag]

Lee, why do you say the ich parasite, once in the tank, is there forever? I thought it always needs a host, and if the fish are free of it for 6 weeks or more, doesn't that mean the cycle is broken and it's gone?

One more question, if you will. How do you get the freshwater to the right PH?

[Newflee]

Terry,
I will look into all of the treatments you have mentioned. I don't mind changing my routine and I certainly think there is always room for new experimentation and knowledge. Regarding the Beta Glucan, If you wouldn't mind I would appreciate it if you PM me when it is reported, as I lately have not been "surfing" the pages as much. In fact if you just mention it on this thread when it is available, I will be alerted to the new post.

Dag, I looked quickly through the thread and I don't recall saying that the parasite cannot be illiminated in the absence of a host. If you have removed all fish for a generous amount of time and be careful not to cross contaminate with an infected tank, you should be ok. You must however treat the fish by whatever means you choose before they are returned to the tank. Just because you dont see evidence of the parasiote on the fish, does not mean they aren't affected, even if the appear clean for months.
Regarding the FW ph. I use Nitric Acid to lower and Calcium Hydroxide to raise, but any aquarium ph up and down product will work fine. Just add the chemical slowly so that you don't overshoot your target ph, and make sure that the dip water is aerated and mixed untill the new ph is stable. Never adjust the ph with chemicals after the fish has been added. One other note, If you mix up your ph adjusted water and let it aerate for a while it usually shifts to a higher ph, so always double check your ph just before adding the fish.

You'll have to excuse my spelling, I'm in a hurry and there is no spell check.
Lee

[TerryB]

Lee,
I will try to remember to let you know when the article about Beta glucan goes online. You may not want to miss the three part series in FAMA about HLLE either. I believe it is the most comprehensive thing written to date on the subject of HLLE to appear in the aquarium literature. The first installment is available right now.
Take care and nice to see you here again,
Terry B

[Newflee]

Thanks Terry, and I'll check out FAMA re the LLE.

Lee

[Dag]

Just because you dont see evidence of the parasiote on the fish, does not mean they aren't affected, even if the appear clean for months.

Thanks, Lee, but I'm hoping the above statement is not true. I can't remove the fish from my reef tank. I have four fish in my reef tank, one of which is blue tang with spots (Ich, I think). The spots have come and gone since I got him (about two months) but none of the other fish appear affected. I have been waiting for the spots to disappear for at least 6 weeks before adding new fish. Under your theory, it's never safe to add more fish.

[Newflee]

Dag,
If you had said that none of your fish had ever had any suspect spots, the noted statement would be true.
Now that I know more about your situation, I can tell you with100% accuracy that you will have another outbreak at some time. If you can't remove the fish then you have a big problem.
It may be that the other fish in the tank are healthy and comfortable enough to be able to fend off the parasite for a while but eventually they will get it as populations explode. Also be aware that changes in the system like adding new fish often stresses out resident fish and may make your chances worse, especially if you have no intention of quarantining/ treating the new fish.

There is a chance that you are not identifying the problem correctly as C.Irritans, and may just have a little lympho. This is viral and rarely deadly. If it looks like a cottony uneven spot or patch don't sweat it.

All that said, the only way that you will ever be sure that your tank is clean is to remove the fish and treat them, leave the tank fish free for 40 days, and quarantine/ treat all future fish. If you decide not to remove the fish (even if that requires a tank tear down) you might as well not tear your hair out worrying about it...it's out of your control.

I really will never understand why keepers are willing to sink thousands of dollars into their tanks but can't seem to justify a hundred bucks for a quarantine tank. I'm not pointing a finger at you Dag, but I would like to see marine fish elevated above disposable status.


Lee

[Dag]

I had a quarantine tank and the blue tang was in it together with a pygmy angel. Something was wrong, however, and after 24 hrs I found them both lying on the bottom gasping for breath. I decided to try to save those two at the risk of my other two fish getting sick (and in the belief that healthy fish would fight it off). It was a choice between the certain death of the fish in the quarantine tank vesus the possible illness of the two in the main tank. I chose the former, not realizing that I was forever jeapordizing the system.

I'm still uncertain why you insist that if the ich is not manifest for a long period, it's not gone.

[Newflee]

Dag,
Can you describe you quarantine set up. Substrate?, Bio filter, How long was it set up for etc.
It is likely that those fish that died were infested with the much more deadly Oodinium if the suffered that quickly. That is if you had a funtioning biofilter on the Q tank. If you didn't they may have been affected by ammonia poisoning.

Can you offer more details?

My insistance that it can and problably will manifest even after a period longer than 6 weeks is based upon my experience with many systems over many years. I certainly have found that reef tanks can go some time without an outbreak, but eventually I have found that it does occur. I have even had outbreaks in reef tanks that only held treated and "certified" fish. My only explaination for that would be an error in treatment, cross contamination from an untreated tank, or perhaps even importation on a new coral. I have no information that supports the importation of protazoa on corals, but as opportunistic as these critters are, it may be possible.
Also, you may have the protazoa but not see it. generally the site of worst infestation are the gills. Without a scraping and microscopic identification, you may never notice several life cycles untill it is a real problem.
I am pleased that you understand the need for a quarantine tank. Let's get some details and figure out what went wrong with its use.


Lee

[TerryB]

I agree that quarantine is NOT optional. Breakouts of parasitic attack can occur after some time, especially if all the fish are not properly quarantine prior to adding them to the display. I suspect that you don't keep a cycled quarantine up and running at all times. The most frequent means of importing ich into a system is on infected fish. You really cannot say a fish is not infected unless you take scrapings from the skin and gills and examine them under a microscope. No visible spots to the naked eye does not equal no infection. I prefer to treat all fish with hyposalinity therapy during the initial quarantine period. This benefits the fish in several ways including eliminating any possible ich. It is possible to import ich in the water and tomonts can attach to any hard surface including rock, equipment, glass and yes even the shell of an invert. However, the odds of this happening is much smaller than on a fish. People that simply quarantine all their fish rarely experience and outbreak of ich in the display.
Terry B

[Dag]

Lee,

A picture is worth a thousand words. My quarantine tank is the left side of the fuge. I can easily feed it water from the main tank and drain it at the bottom. I put in a blue tang and pygmy angel. There was a sponge filter (that had been in the sump), but the air pump was weak. I also put in a piece of live rock and a piece of base rock. there was also some caulerpa in there. the next morning both fish were on the bottom gasping for air. Ammonia?




Any suggestions to improve the set up?

[Newflee]

Dag,
It's hard to tell without a test if it was the ammonia or perhaps just water very low in oxygen. I should say that even though it looks like a neat idea, puting a quarantine tank even in the same room as your display tank is trouble. We don't even quarantine in the same building as our clean fish and use separate staff for both. Cross contamination is very likely in your set up.
Just for interest, why don't you test the ammonia and nitrite on your quarantine. If you have neans of testing D.O. do that as well. What is the rate of water turnover in that tank?
That said, I would recomend that you set up as large of a quarantine as you can (30 gal is good) in a different room with a proper bio filter. I like to use hang on filters. You need to cycle this tank with ammonia chloride or some damsels from scratch. This way you will have a healthy biofilter. Ammonia chloride is ideal as you can maintain the filter without fish. Also your quarantine should not contain any substrate or decoration besides large pvc pipes and fittings. This is because if you choose to use copper to treat, it is rapidly absorbed into calcarious materials.

Do the tests...I'm currious to know what you get. And don't do a quick flush before you test. Test a sample as is.....especially for d.o.

Lee

[sting310]

Originally posted by Newflee
I should say that even though it looks like a neat idea, puting a quarantine tank even in the same room as your display tank is trouble. We don't even quarantine in the same building as our clean fish and use separate staff for both. Cross contamination is very likely in your set up.

The tanks being in the same room would cause a disease transfer even if you are careful not to use the same nets, etc in both tanks?

[Newflee]

I'm not saying that it "would" cause a disease transfer, but it "Could". Even using professional staff and systems, I have seen unexplainable transfer. The more precautions you take the better. Also a room with less activity taking place in it is prefered for quarantine in order to reduce stress as much as possible.

Lee

[dapet]

Hi Guy's: This is a thread from Mojadeli that I run across many, many month;s back. He puts crushed garlic that he purchases from food store . He learned from a nam in Minneapolis who run's crushed garlic 24/7 on all his tank;s. it really cures ich, he adds garlic to his tank whenever adding new fish or when expecting an eventthat will stress his fish. If you have ick outbreak crush whole head of garlic, put in a mesh bag-float in the tank or stick it in filter. great sucess with this method. Never leave the garlic for more than three days.Can use pantyhose to wrap garlic in.

[capnskunk]

ok maybe somebody can help me out. i set up a qt under my display tank today. i used a bio-wheel filter that has been in my fowlr for a few months. will this filter have enough bacteria on it that i can go ahead and add a fish to my qt. its a 20 gal and i want to put one baby blue tang in it. i recently got this fish as a surprise gift so i wasnt set up to quarintine it right away. it looks like it might have ich, with very few spots, but im not sure. i also have a maroon clown and a striped gobie that have been in the tank a while. they show no signs. should i qt them also. i have a reef tank so i cant treat the display if it is ich. the blue tang acts healthy and eats good but id rather be safe than sorry.

[capnskunk]

ok maybe somebody can help me out. i set up a qt under my display tank today. i used a bio-wheel filter that has been in my fowlr for a few months. will this filter have enough bacteria on it that i can go ahead and add a fish to my qt. its a 20 gal and i want to put one baby blue tang in it. i recently got this fish as a surprise gift so i wasnt set up to quarintine it right away. it looks like it might have ich, with very few spots, but im not sure. i also have a maroon clown and a striped gobie that have been in the tank a while. they show no signs. should i qt them also. i have a reef tank so i cant treat the display if it is ich. the blue tang acts healthy and eats good but id rather be safe than sorry.

[capnskunk]

oh yeah, ive been feeding them garlic and garlic soaked foods since yesterday.