New RANDY's 2 part

[rigleautomotive]

thanks randy,after reading the article by bingman,i am not sure the bromide will do harm,and it may be a plus for some.or will it acumalate to a harmful level in time and become a problem.does dow say how high the level will be in there product and do you feel that it will be harmful to corals.it may just make algae grow a bit quicker.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The level is seemingly high for routine use as a supplement, but it has not been proven too high. It is not too high for a once in a while boost to calcium.

A 100 ppm boost to calcium will boost bromide by about 1 ppm (about 2%). If that depletes as fast as the 100 ppm of calcium, then there is no problem. If not, then it may accumulate. I do not know how high it would need to accumulate to be a concern.

[leoskee]

Im still trying to figure out what the ill affects of bromide are!? Anyone?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

see above.

YOu can look through the literature results for ecotoxicity here:

remember that bromide is usually 67 ppm in seawater, or about 67,000 ug/L

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_...40#Ecotoxicity

[brandonberry]

I am so releived. I just ordered several 50 lb bags that came in just a couple of weeks ago. After reading this, I was scared that they may be the new lots. I just checked ande they are the old lots. It may have to do with the fact that I am in the south and we haven't used any yet this year. I guess I should go ahead and order some more while I can. FWIW, if you have a friend in the south that has a relationship with a chemicall supplier, you may want them to try to go ahead and order a bag for you.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How did you determine that? By a lot number on the bag followed by the code described in the Dow press release?

I figured they'd all be new by now, but I'd be glad to be wrong.

[renogaw]

I got a bag back in august of this year. does bromine not show up in their chemical content breakdown? I'm in the north east, so i'd be pretty sure that all the dow that was shipped up here since the beginning of 2006 would be new stuff and all the old stuff would be depleted no? the lot number on the bag is so hard to read, but i do not see the letters mentioned.

now i'm wondering if i should continue usage or not

[ArtC]

Does this look safe to use?

http://http://www.spectrumchemical.c...ct_id=5561538#

Of course they don't list bromine, but there isn't much room left for it if the stuff is 105% CaCl2

Assay (as CaCl2•2H2O) 99.0-105.0%
pH of a 5% Solution @ 25°C 4.5-8.5
Insoluble Matter 0.01%
Oxidizing Substances (as NO3) 0.003%
Sulfate (SO4) 0.01%
Ammonium (NH4) 0.005%
Barium (Ba) 0.005%
Heavy Metals (as Pb) 5 ppm
Iron (Fe) 0.001%
Magnesium (Mg) 0.005%
Potassium (K) 0.01%
Sodium (Na) 0.02%
Strontium (Sr) 0.1%

I know, it is way expensive unless you go for 50kg...

[renogaw]

good news btw. the bromine change occured dec 2006, not 2005:

http://www.reefwerks.com/media/August2005add.pdf

[ArtC]

Per the link above, Dow promises that the Food Grade products will have the historical bromide levels. (Item 3)

For the Technical Grade (Dowflake and other deicers), they say the bromide will usually be at historical levels but may be as high as the new level. (Item 2)

That probably means that they will be doing some test runs of their processing with the bromine extraction process turned off. So you'll probably get 65 ppm but you might get 8000 ppm. That doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

[Rambomessiah]

I guess I'll just have to use mine on the driveway!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Per the link above, Dow promises that the Food Grade products will have the historical bromide levels. (Item 3)

The link earlier in this thread shows the food grade to have bromide at 8500 ppm, which is similar to the new Dowflake. The item 3 that you mention says that food grades will also hit these levels in 2007.

http://www.dow.com/calcium/news/August_2005.pdf

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oops, I had a math mistake in the calculation above. I'm reposting data from above:

The level is seemingly high for routine use as a supplement, but it has not been proven too high. It is not too high for a once in a while boost to calcium.

A 100 ppm boost to calcium will boost bromide by about 4 ppm (about 6%). If that depletes as fast as the 100 ppm of calcium, then there is no problem. If not, then it may accumulate. I do not know how high it would need to accumulate to be a concern.

[rigleautomotive]

thanks for looking randy.you are greatly appreciated

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does this look safe to use?

Unfortunately, there is not enough info to say for sure that it is OK. That's why I did extensive testing of Dowflake before recommending it. That said, I do not see any problem with the values shown.

[rdnyva]

I have been using SunCoast Calcium Hardness Increaser which I buy at the pool store. I've been using it for over a year with no ill effects but will take a closer look at it after reading these threads. The label says 77% Calcium Chloride, 23% inert ingredients but doesn 't say what those inert ingredients are. Anybody else usethis, any problems. Should I be worried?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The inert ingredients are primarily water, with a few other tidbits tossed in. It's those tidbits that could be a concern, but if you've used it for a year and are happy with the tank, I see little reason to switch.

[ShipWreck2]

Originally posted by lecher
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...tail/iid/22679

I emailed AquaticEco about their product and received this response:

Thank you for checking with Aquatic Eco-Systems. Here is the breakdown on CCB1, the beaded product which we carry at present:

Anhydrous

CaCl2 94%
Arsenic as As <3mg/kg
Flouride < 40 ppm
Heavy Metals < 20 ppm
Lead < 5mg/kg
Magnesium and Alkalai salts < 5%


Would this be a safe alternative to Dow flake? How much of this would be required in the formula to replace the dow flake?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It doesn't give enough info to compare to Dowflake. That is the same spec that Dow's food grade meets, but Dow now has too much bromide. It might be repackaged Dow material.

[ShipWreck2]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
It doesn't give enough info to compare to Dowflake. That is the same spec that Dow's food grade meets, but Dow now has too much bromide. It might be repackaged Dow material.

What specific questions do I need to ask?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, the bromide level would be useful. To OK Dowflake, I ran a couple of dozen tests myself as companies do not usually provide technical analyses of bulk materials:

Purity of Calcium Chloride
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/chem.htm

[brandonberry]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
How did you determine that? By a lot number on the bag followed by the code described in the Dow press release?

I figured they'd all be new by now, but I'd be glad to be wrong.

Yes. I checked the lot number for the codes someone posted above. Also, there was a number that appeared to be a date below the lot number which read 3/06.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Great. Good to know there is still good material about.

[rogergolf66]

well I am not very good with all this chemistry stuff, but I have done as much reading as I can understand. you said the best way to deal with this is to pay more get something else.



Here I have 3 questions

At the price of B-Ionic it is cheeper in the long run to get a clacium reactor?

Can I / Should I assume that the stuff I/we get from 2part.com is safe to use in our tanks? meaning are they going to stop selling when they run out of the old stuff?

Should I stop using the mix I am using now?

Anything you can tell me would be great.

just wondering what are the chances companys like B-ionic would pay dowflack and such companies to make the level questionalble for tanks. Just a thought not a question.

Roger

[Pufferpunk]

Interesting! I am so glad I never gave away any of the 5g bucket of Pedlow I bought. I know the guy I got it from bought it several years ago, so it should be fine, right? Since all I use is 1 tsp/day, it'll probably last me forever.