My new 600 gallon reef

[Goodwin9]

triggerfish1976 Let me start out by saying I appreciate your information, thoughts, and comments.

BUT , I would like to clarify and correct a few of your statements. First, I started this thread to document my attempt to set up a nice SPS tank. I have never posted this is the right way, the best, or the only way, to achieve my goal.

I have never posted claims of my tank being a success. I have posted that the SPS haven't been doing so great in the tank. I have also posted a number of times that my water parameter are less than perfect.

If you were to ask me if I am happy with the way the tank is progressing, I would say NO I doubt if I will be able to have the SPS tank I originally envisioned.

Was I aware that tangs will turn aggressive, NO . I've kept various tangs in different tanks for the past three years and have never had that happen, other thank possibly with the introduction of a new fish.

My tank is a work in progress and this thread is my way of sharing it with other readers. I don't believe that I have posted a list of the fish that I have lost, but it's probably not as long as you think. I don't have any reason to hide the failures or fudge numbers. I've probably made more mistakes than most and if I can help someone from making the same mistake, then it is worth it. My failures out number my successes. But I have given up or stopped working at improving the situations.

You made some other comments that I would like to address at a later time. Got to head off to work.

[Goodwin9]

Originally posted by jnarowe
Chuck, as for the sand filters not needing any maintainance...that's total BS. If you don't change out the sand, phosphate and nitrate will bond until the sand has reached its capacity, and then you won't be able to control your water parameters. You will end up with a total breakdown IMO. This is indeed an important issue that you should consider, especially in light of your stocking levels, because it will happen faster. Just take a look at all the TBS tanks that crash at about the 2 year mark. Sand is an excellent media but ity must be maintained. Check my thread tomorrow for more on this. I will post sometime after noon.

Jonathan, Pentair suggests that the sand be replaced on a yearly basis, that' why I said they don't require maintenance weekly. I do check the flow into them weekly.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by Goodwin9
triggerfish1976 Let me start out by saying I appreciate your information, thoughts, and comments.

BUT , I would like to clarify and correct a few of your statements. First, I started this thread to document my attempt to set up a nice SPS tank. I have never posted this is the right way, the best, or the only way, to achieve my goal.

I have never posted claims of my tank being a success. I have posted that the SPS haven't been doing so great in the tank. I have also posted a number of times that my water parameter are less than perfect.

If you were to ask me if I am happy with the way the tank is progressing, I would say NO I doubt if I will be able to have the SPS tank I originally envisioned.

Was I aware that tangs will turn aggressive, NO . I've kept various tangs in different tanks for the past three years and have never had that happen, other thank possibly with the introduction of a new fish.

My tank is a work in progress and this thread is my way of sharing it with other readers. I don't believe that I have posted a list of the fish that I have lost, but it's probably not as long as you think. I don't have any reason to hide the failures or fudge numbers. I've probably made more mistakes than most and if I can help someone from making the same mistake, then it is worth it. My failures out number my successes. But I have given up or stopped working at improving the situations.

You made some other comments that I would like to address at a later time. Got to head off to work.

Goodwin,

I don't mean to be harsh when I say this but it appears that you still have a lot to learn about the "basic" aspects of marine husbandry. I myself am still learning as well but I also try and gain enough knowledge about husbandry before I take on an endeavors equal to what you have done thus far instead of risking the well being of so many fish in an effort to prove a point. I think that it is disturbing that so many people that have posted on this thread do not understand the true behavioral traits of tangs and other fish. I have always thought it to be common knowledge that many tangs are territorial but it appears that I am mistaken.

[jnarowe]

Hey Chuck...I would think that replacing a portion of the sand every 6 months may be a better idea, but I haven't worked with theh Pentair filters personally.

[clekchau]

jnarowe, how much do you recommend on replacing every six months? if the tank has been set up for only 6 months, do you recommend on waiting a year or so?

[jnarowe]

No waiting. Not for me. More about this subject in my thread later today.

[Goodwin9]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
Goodwin,

I don't mean to be harsh when I say this but it appears that you still have a lot to learn about the "basic" aspects of marine husbandry. I myself am still learning as well but I also try and gain enough knowledge about husbandry before I take on an endeavors equal to what you have done thus far instead of risking the well being of so many fish in an effort to prove a point. I think that it is disturbing that so many people that have posted on this thread do not understand the true behavioral traits of tangs and other fish. I have always thought it to be common knowledge that many tangs are territorial but it appears that I am mistaken.

I sure don't know where you are coming from, but it is obvious that you missed the train somewhere along the way.

I am still learning, but my experiences are different from your therories about the demise of my new tank. Does that mean I am right, maybe not, only time will tell.

What is your background other than a reef junkie. Are you studying to be a marine biologist? Can you reference specific articles to back up what you are talking about?

I think that you should start a thread specifically detailing your knowledge of tangs so that others that are not following this thread may learn from your vast knowledge of this subject. I would guess that Tangs would be one of the more common fish found in private aquariums. I think that there must be a large number of people on this forum that would benefit from your information.

Finally, I am not trying to prove a point to you, or anyone else on this forum.

[Atomikk]

Originally posted by cbui2
ok i did some further research on any user name and came up with this.

http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=29040

as for the respect to other, how is it possible to spread one thread and simply just throw him into the ground? if you said just thoughts and advice then why the rumor. let say he did do something wrong with his display, it still can be corrected but not create rumors and said not to do. i know i have made some mistakes, but who hasn't, who perfect and even if you follow all the rules of building a reef system, will this ensure it will be right. in order to prove any statements that all those fishes is too much, you must have a team of Drs, full staff of research and development 24hrs daily, over so many years to see any aggression of the same entire fish list. not just read what's on the internet that can be compatible or not. who says one fish cant get along with others? how can you actually prove that the fish will become like cujo? who said that the fish will go crazy? did the team of research and developments at your house told you or maybe its all the Drs there. i still cant believed the discussion on too much fish is still going on and the thread is now taking a complete u turn. all it took was one reply to create such madness?

You obviously have very little experience in this hobby. So if I were you... take advice from people that have gone through with what they are talking about. You don't need extensive research to prove that certain fish just don't get along with each other. That is a FACT. There is NOTHING to prove. It has been documented many times through experience (my personal, and through others) that fish get older, they fight for space, food and territory. If you can't fathom that, then simply get out of the hobby. I simply can't say it any nicer.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by Goodwin9

What is your background other than a reef junkie. Are you studying to be a marine biologist? Can you reference specific articles to back up what you are talking about?

I originally went to college to study Marine Biology but later changed my major to something that would allow me to pay the bills with a little more consistancy. I have continued to dabble in the scientific aspect of the hobby.

I think you're also missing the train regarding the scientific data. There has been several books and articles written by many acomplished hobbyists like Scott Michaels and Robert Fenner just to name a few. These articles are based on actual hobbyists experiences including their own and are not generated from some scientific study performed in a lab. These two examples are only a tip of the iceberg when it comes to the general resources available regarding the subject at hand.
Here is a good starting point for information regarding tang husbandry.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fishindex3.htm

[clekchau]

Originally posted by Atomikk
You obviously have very little experience in this hobby. So if I were you... take advice from people that have gone through with what they are talking about. You don't need extensive research to prove that certain fish just don't get along with each other. That is a FACT. There is NOTHING to prove. It has been documented many times through experience (my personal, and through others) that fish get older, they fight for space, food and territory. If you can't fathom that, then simply get out of the hobby. I simply can't say it any nicer.

you obviously take what little experiences you have had and try to lump it into hard and fast rules. that does not work for a hobby where there are many ways to achieve the same objectives.

i for a fact have had and witnissed no less than 8 aquariums where a yellow and purple tang coexist peacefully and grown to full adult sizes after years in an aquarium. in fact, goodwin9 showed you a tank of his where he has had 17 tangs for almost 3 years with no deaths due to aggression.

if you can't fathom that your way is not the ONLY way, perhaps you should quit posting on this forum and go back to aquariumpros.ca with your gospel rather than "trying" to ridicule anyone who doesn't agree with the way you do things. likewise, i can't state that in a nicer way

[clekchau]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
I originally went to college to study Marine Biology but later changed my major to something that would allow me to pay the bills with a little more consistancy. I have continued to dabble in the scientific aspect of the hobby.

I think you're also missing the train regarding the scientific data. There has been several books and articles written by many acomplished hobbyists like Scott Michaels and Robert Fenner just to name a few. These articles are based on actual hobbyists experiences including their own and are not generated from some scientific study performed in a lab. These two examples are only a tip of the iceberg when it comes to the general resources available regarding the subject at hand.
Here is a good starting point for information regarding tang husbandry.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fishindex3.htm

triggerfish, i for one used to have the same mindset as yourself, especially when it came to those massively overstocked hong kong aquariums with 10 plus large adult angelfish stuffed into lockerroom conditions like an african cichlid tank, it actually sickened me how people could try to promote this so i sent a letter to bob fenner about it. suprisingly, here is his response:

Hi Bob,
'Chaidan'
As I am planning on my stocking list, I got a chance to see a very
overstocked aquarium from Hong Kong where as many as 10 large angelfish
was crammed inside a 150 gallon aquarium which I thought was cruel and
not acceptable under any circumstances yet I hear it is the norm over
there.
'Is not an uncommon practice...'
Have you heard of this method of fish keeping in Asia?
'Yes, have seen there, and some places in W. Europe and N. America...
mainly amongst folks of Chinese background... and one large service
company on the U.S. eastern seaboard... can be done'
Are the people employing these methods having any long term success
with them?
'At least some of them, yes'
what are you long term mental and physical damage from angelfish being
crammed in an aquarium for an extended period of time and having to
suffer from the lockerroom effect?
'Well-worded... and I don't know exactly. It seems that such an
arrangement might well lead to psychological problems... but the examples I've
witnessed first hand show little signs of such... and often quite
vigorous, colorful specimens...'
I know there is not a guideline of inch per gallon but should even 2
angels be stocked inside a 150 gallon much less 10 or am I overreacting?
'Sort of the situation with semi-compatible mixes of African Great
Lakes Cichlids... either undercrowded, akin to natural presence, or
purposely over-crowded... With commensurate filtration, circulation,
aeration... and feeding...'
Any information would be appreciated.
Thank you,
Chaidan
'Mmm... I wrote a review of a book expounding, exemplifying this
"technique": http://wetwebmedia.com/capmaraqbkrev.htm
By Wayne Shang... You might read it... I am not a fan of this
crowding... as it too often can/does lead to catastrophic loss, but it can be
done. Bob Fenner'

so there you have it, even the expert you referenced indicated although its not his preferred method of keeping an aquarium, it can and has been done successfully by many people. i'm sure goodwin9 is an easy target to you and atomikk but would you direct your same disdain to someone like bob fenner or wayne shang? if you do, please let me know their response

[NanoReefaholic]

You do know what happens when you assume, right?

It's good that you've had pleasant experiences with tang aggression and stocking tolerances. I fear that we are missing a part of the picture here on Goodwin9's tank. Perhaps there have already been unreported deaths due to aggression, misidentified deaths labelled as something else when they could be aggression related, or even perhaps the are dieing before aggression becomes an issue. We've already seen one instance that sounds more like aggression although it was labelled as playing.

As I asked before; what is your current total livestock, how is your coral polyp extension, and have you had anyone else test your levels to ensure that your readings are accurate? Remember he has corals that are an animal as well so they deserve the proper environment and not treated as 'an experiment'.

Every fish can be different as can every tank and the manor in which they get there. However, when you go down certain paths the end result can usually be foreseen. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it generally wont nor is it something you should have done to begin with.

Again, I feel that we aren't seeing the whole story here.

[NanoReefaholic]

Let me throw the first stone then.

"as it too often can/does lead to catastrophic loss, but it can be
done."

Can and should are two different things. Many can do it but very few should.

[clekchau]

Originally posted by NanoReefaholic
Let me throw the first stone then.

"as it too often can/does lead to catastrophic loss, but it can be
done."

Can and should are two different things. Many can do it but very few should.

i agree 100% with your statement.

however, you can see that goodwin isn't some rookie with his first 55 gallon aquarium and 8 tangs noobie, he has some serious tanks, equipment and puts alot of time. if anyone should, obviously it would be HIM. also, not only did he state that he has 17 tangs in a 470 for years, he has pictures of it and i think even a webcam to show you, yet you guys are still not satisfied.

[NanoReefaholic]

Lets just say I know more to this story than what Chuck is telling everyone. He should answer my questions so everyone is on the same page.

IMO he still has alot to learn before he should be attempting this. His other tanks are prime example to the 'level' he is at within this hobby (IE the ray tank) however he now seems to be willing to listen. Only time will tell if he heeds the advice given.

[clekchau]

like jnarowe said, his tank is more of a fowlr with corals thrown in to see what will work , IN MY OPINION he has all the necessary experience, knowledge and equipment to make it work. in my opinion, if anyone "should" try it, it would be him.

perhaps you will enlighten us in this mysterious secret that chuck is not telling us that will change my opinion.

[Atomikk]

With your mockery post, I can easily see that there isn't anything that I or any experienced hobbyist can say to change your (or Goodwin9's) view on fish husbandry.

Goodwin has found short term 'success', and has documented it every step of the way. Those who aspire to do the same setup can only wow themselves into thinking that if someone has 'proven' that they can do it, so can they too. Then when someone questions the ethics behind this setup, this person's point of view is immediately dismissed. This is due to selfish reasoning and denial. That prompts (defensive) rude comments and rebuttals of opinion (with very little personal experience) from those who aspire to build a tank like Goodwin's.

Therefore, since I can't change people's perception on what is wrong with this setup... I can hope that some day when your fish start to kill each other and your tank's parameters are through the roof you remember this thread and advice given. I just hope that you are not the person who lives in denial and keeps buying new fish for those which have died (due to your poor husbandry).

Ignorance is not a good thing in this hobby.

Originally posted by clekchau
you obviously take what little experiences you have had and try to lump it into hard and fast rules. that does not work for a hobby where there are many ways to achieve the same objectives.

i for a fact have had and witnissed no less than 8 aquariums where a yellow and purple tang coexist peacefully and grown to full adult sizes after years in an aquarium. in fact, goodwin9 showed you a tank of his where he has had 17 tangs for almost 3 years with no deaths due to aggression.

if you can't fathom that your way is not the ONLY way, perhaps you should quit posting on this forum and go back to aquariumpros.ca with your gospel rather than "trying" to ridicule anyone who doesn't agree with the way you do things. likewise, i can't state that in a nicer way

[NanoReefaholic]

I'm sure that won't be necessary as Chuck will more than likely tell all of us his mortality rate (fish and coral), current stock list (fish and coral), current PO4 (with an independent reference), current nitrate (also with a independent reference), and current ammonia (also with a independent reference).

Give us the real current numbers so we can gauge the tanks health and possible future.

[Goodwin9]

Originally posted by NanoReefaholic
Lets just say I know more to this story than what Chuck is telling everyone. He should answer my questions so everyone is on the same page.

IMO he still has alot to learn before he should be attempting this. His other tanks are prime example to the 'level' he is at within this hobby (IE the ray tank) however he now seems to be willing to listen. Only time will tell if he heeds the advice given.

NANOREEFAHOLIC You have my permission to fill in the blanks in the story as I don't have a clue to what you are talking about. Please put eveyone on the same page.

If you have issues with my shark & ray tank, they should be posted on that thread as I have no sharks or rays in the tank in this thread.

[NanoReefaholic]

Thanks but unfortunately it's not your permission I need. The others are the ones that need to consent.

Do you not have current tests and death/stock lists?

[clekchau]

Originally posted by Atomikk
With your mockery post, I can easily see that there isn't anything that I or any experienced hobbyist can say to change your (or Goodwin9's) view on fish husbandry.

Goodwin has found short term 'success', and has documented it every step of the way. Those who aspire to do the same setup can only wow themselves into thinking that if someone has 'proven' that they can do it, so can they too. Then when someone questions the ethics behind this setup, this person's point of view is immediately dismissed. This is due to selfish reasoning and denial. That prompts (defensive) rude comments and rebuttals of opinion (with very little personal experience) from those who aspire to build a tank like Goodwin's.

Therefore, since I can't change people's perception on what is wrong with this setup... I can hope that some day when your fish start to kill each other and your tank's parameters are through the roof you remember this thread and advice given. I just hope that you are not the person who lives in denial and keeps buying new fish for those which have died (due to your poor husbandry).

Ignorance is not a good thing in this hobby.

for the third time, he has a 470 gallon tank with 17 tangs going on 3 years, based on your years of in depth hands on experience keeping tangs together, can you tell us when his fish will start to kill each other? perhaps on the 4th year? 5th year? if you review the tank of the months in the previous years there are scores of examples of tangs in the same tank coexisting fine for years. please don't tell me all your criticism is based on seeing your friends tank where a yellow and purple tang didn't get along?

[Goodwin9]

Originally posted by Atomikk
Goodwin has found short term 'success', and has documented it every step of the way. Those who aspire to do the same setup can only wow themselves into thinking that if someone has 'proven' that they can do it, so can they too. Then when someone questions the ethics behind this setup, this person's point of view is immediately dismissed. This is due to selfish reasoning and denial. That prompts (defensive) rude comments and rebuttals of opinion (with very little personal experience) from those who aspire to build a tank like Goodwin's.

Somewhere, either you haven't read all of the posts, or I haven't been able to communicate to you and others following this thread that I don't consider this tank to be a success at this stage. Far from it.

Temperature: 78 degrees F +/- 1.0
Salinity: 1.025
pH: low 8.2 high 8.4
NO2: undetectable
NO3: undetectable
NH3: undetectable
NH4: undetectable
PO4: undetectable
Ca: 440ppm
Alk: 9 – 10 DKH

Have I obtained these targets..NO

Are all my corals growing like weeds..NO

I don't consider those answers to be an indication that every thing is fine and dandy in my tank. Can you show me where I have posted that it was?

You've pointed out that you feel I have too many fish. Maybe that could be one of the reasons I haven't been able to reach targeted water parameters. Maybe I feed too much? Maybe there is a flaw in design and equipment I use for the filtraton for the tank. Lots of things to look at and take into consideration. I haven't stopped working on this tank and six months is a little period of time to predict success or failure of a tank IMO.

[Goodwin9]

Originally posted by NanoReefaholic
Thanks but unfortunately it's not your permission I need. The others are the ones that need to consent.

Do you not have current tests and death/stock lists?

Your not only a reef expert, but also a comedian...

I posted several of the parameters from tests taken earlier this week. You can find them on the previous couple of pages.

[tanya72806]

My lord this is completely ridicoulous. The guys has been doing it for some years now you dont like it then say it and leave it be enough is enough hes gonna do what he wants to do anyway. Hes a grown man and has the will to make up his own mind. If he believes his taks will do fine then he's gonna do it his way. Saya your peace and leave. You are ruining a great thread. I wouldn't do it myself either. But he has and he has been successful doing it.

[Atomikk]

Look at it this way.. I am done trying to talk to anyone by Chuck.

Chuck, if you want advice, let me know. I will be more than happy in helping you out. BUT, remember that what you want and what you can have are completely different things.

The rest of you, please don't involve me in any of your discussion as I am tired of typing out the same thing over and over. Thank you.