NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!! - Page 28

mthird · #**676** 12/28/2006, 11:11 PM

The tech tank comes with a neat lid for the overflows, but I didn't trim the return pipes enough for it to fit. I've been a little lazy and haven't gotten around to it

I should have learned after a new cleaner shrimp disappeared after the first night. Two weeks later while removing the filter sock I found it had been living in the sock for the whole time!

Miax · #**677** 01/01/2007, 11:37 AM

Wonderful thread, I plan to use the Herbie System for my Sump/Overflow as well. I condisered all the options and read through the debate - and in the end too many people are using this very successfully without any air getting into the system and thus generating no noise. Low noise levels are one of the themes for my Miax-92 tank, and this system fits the bill perfectly.

Thanks Herbie!

What I found fascinating overall was how the thread evolved.. First an unknown new guy comes up with a new innovative idea and posts about it at depth to share that idea with the world. The older, senior members immediately attack this new idea from this young wipper-snapper and even flame him in some responses. Then over time more and more people report into the thread that the system really works well, and every argument debunking the method is either soundly defeated by real-world experience or proven to be of little consequence. Of course some said this idea is not technically New, but it certainly has never been branded, endorsed and documented like Durso's has - and I think that is where Herbie came along and made the idea much more public, more standard.

I think the Herbie Standpipe System (which includes the Emergency Drain) has turned-out to be superior to even the tried and true Durso, though I'll probably get flamed for even suggesting that.

In general I find it fascinating how a new idea evolved into first a proven idea, and then twoards becoming a standard. While the Durso is awesome, proven and will remain a staple in reef tanks around the globe, I also think the Herbie system will continue to gain wide-spread popularity as an excellent alternative to Dursos. You have to respect Herbie's persistence through the thread, even when attacked - he held is ground and the idea moved forward.

I post pictures in my thread once the system is live tonight.

Cheers!

Kris

jaeden · #**678** 01/01/2007, 06:47 PM

I bypassed this thread numerous times when building my 125aga eventually I gave it a shot based on other peoples resullts , best thing I ever did , cheers Herbie.

jacmyoung · #**679** 01/01/2007, 11:06 PM

One advantage Durso has is it does not require an emergency drain. A standard RR tank has usually two outlets, one for drain one for return. One can certainly use both for drain and have the return go through the back but it is not an off the shelf solution.

It'd be nice if one of those manufactures starts to add a third hole in the overflow box and add some instructions and parts to support this method.

At the meantime, my silent drain without emergency backup is running smooth as silk after nearly one year. I have only cleaned my screen about three times in that time, not because there was any problem just I felt obligated to keep things clean in order to earn a good tank owner's name.

One unexpected benefit of this system was now there is more room in the overflow box, I was able to put both my heater and my self-driven UV sterilizer in there instead of having them in the tank looking ugly.

jdircksen · #**680** 01/07/2007, 11:19 AM

Question:
How does using the Herbie method affect the skimming ability of the overflows?

What I mean is, since the drain is submerged, it no longer is sucking water from the surface of the overflow. It would seem that the crud would just flow over the overflow and then collect inside the overflow instead of going down the drain. Right?

rdmpe · #**681** 01/07/2007, 07:41 PM

The water flowing into the overflow keeps the chamber clean enough IME - also, mine is typically tuned right to the rim of the emergency drain, so my tank water only drops about 1/2 inch into the overflow (very quiet). Some water runs down the emergency drain sometimes so that probably helps too. But I think the main thing is that stuff gets down the main drain anyway due to the mixing action of the water coming down the overflow walls.

I have been using this method for 13 months so far, it has worked perfectly.

Zoom · #**682** 01/07/2007, 08:29 PM

This is old news for me my system is been running this way for 12 years now i don't have the emergency overflow protection on mine .
I run a Eheim 1260 for a return on a 200 G RR oceanic tank with a 55G sump with a refuge .
I have some pictures i can dig up for you s.

Here is the overflow height adjustment valves sorry about the webs.

Here is the overflow you can see how much water is in there no noise at all ,i clean the perforated pipe every week .

jdircksen · #**683** 01/07/2007, 08:29 PM

Awesome. Well I set it up anyway. I figure if I need to mix up the water in the overflow I can get a small powerhead.

Fuzzy · #**684** 01/08/2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rdmpe
The water flowing into the overflow keeps the chamber clean enough IME - also, mine is typically tuned right to the rim of the emergency drain, so my tank water only drops about 1/2 inch into the overflow (very quiet). Some water runs down the emergency drain sometimes so that probably helps too. But I think the main thing is that stuff gets down the main drain anyway due to the mixing action of the water coming down the overflow walls.

I have been using this method for 13 months so far, it has worked perfectly.

I see you're in Central FL - I'd love to pick your brain on this set up.
We have a new 150 in our family room using Durso's in the overflows. The sump is obscenely loud. To that I'm adding a ER RS180 skimmer..........
Needless to say, I need to reduce the noise.
Any ideas/help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks,

Nick

rdmpe · #**685** 01/09/2007, 08:17 AM

Hey Nick, sent you a PM

spider86 · #**686** 01/09/2007, 02:26 PM

Questions on this method. I'm seting up a sump and have a calfo style overflow with downturned 90's on each bulkhead within the overflow.
1. How do you keep the water level constant over a long period of time? No matter how I set the valve it either raises or lowers within a few hours.
2. After the pump is shut off the drain looses siphon. When I restart the pump the water level raises untill the siphon starts which is nearly overflowing the tank and stays there. How do you keep the water level where it was before the pump was turned off? I can get it there after adjusting the valve, but dont want to have to do this everytime.

jdircksen · #**687** 01/09/2007, 02:34 PM

spider I am in the same boat as you. I have a calfo with 1x1" drain (with no 90). I also have 1x1" with an upturned 90 as the emergency drain. I think the precise tuning of a gate valve will help keep the water level constant. But I think it will be very hard to get it to the point it never needs adjusted.
When I turn my pump off and restart it I have the same problem with the water rising above the emergency drain, but it doesn't flood the tank. I think it just takes the drains a minute to stabilize. If you have caps on the end of your drains that prevent the air from escaping then I would drill a tiny hole in them. Before the Herbie method kicks in the air needs to escape from the pipes.

spider86 · #**688** 01/09/2007, 02:52 PM

So lets assume I get this set at a stable water level. I turn off the pump, then restart it. The water level stays at the top of the emergency drain and never returns to the previous state. Has this been your experience?

jdircksen · #**689** 01/09/2007, 02:57 PM

I've only had my tank running for a few hours total. But yesterday when I turned the pump on the water did stay above the emergency drain until I removed the caps on the drain lines in the sump. I am going to play with it some mroe when I get home from work today.

jdircksen · #**690** 01/09/2007, 02:57 PM

I figure that I won't be turning the pump on/off very often so if I can get it set once I'll just leave it.

spider86 · #**691** 01/09/2007, 04:52 PM

Jdirksen, Let me know what happens with it. When I allow air into the caps, it actually slows the flow down and a ton of bubbles fall into sump. I may try to throttle back my pump and see what happens.

jdircksen · #**692** 01/09/2007, 05:28 PM

Well I took the caps off my drains to allow the air to escape and turned the pump on. The water went past the emergency but eventually lowered back down after the drains caught up. Its doing fine now with no caps (its a very calm flow down the drains) but I am just working to get the gate valve dialed in (it takes a couple minutes to equalize).

this is my setup

rdmpe · #**693** 01/09/2007, 07:49 PM

I think it is tricky when you have some air inside the downturned elbows. The air is probably reducing the available cross section of water flow until the air gets worked out of the pipes. I don't really see an easy way to avoid the issue but I guess it depends on exactly what your plumbing looks like.

Hopefully I'm picturing your system correctly in my head, I could be way off base - photos would be interesting for me and probably the other lurkers on this thread if you guys have more to post...

Herbie · #**694** 01/09/2007, 08:45 PM

Sorry guys, I dont have much experience to lend in regards to the Calfo style of overflow. This method is well suited to tanks with the "factory" style of overflow reef ready boxes (top of tank to bottom of tank/bulkheads).
The reason the stability may be tough to achieve with the Calfo overflow, is there is not much difference between the main and emergency overflow. I think it works best to have about 6-8" vertically between drains to keep the main quiet, and give a median point in which to dial in the gate/water level. Also, the level adjustment is very easy to see and adjust in the "small" volume of water in a traditional overflow vs a Calfo style. There seems to be a lot more volume of water in a calfo, which may make the adjustment a time consuming procedure (the water wont react to adjustments very fast).
One minor problem when using this system is during a power out/on cycle. The water level will need to be readjusted to get any trapped air out of the plumbing again. Some of us, have had good luck by hooking the main pump up to a ups back-up system to ensure the pump always stays "on", even during small power outages or "flickers" in the power supply.
It seems that this sytem seems to be easiest to set-up/adjust, when you allow a *small* amount of water to trickle down the emergency drain.

Btw.........
Very impressed with some tank sytems using this method.
MIAX,RDMPE,DANDY............my hats off. Great Planning and execution of some pretty high-tech systems !!! Thanks for concluding that this system will work "silently" and with very little danger of flood.
Sometimes it may not be the easiest of systems to adjust at initial set-up, but once you get it set.........its pretty solid, requiring very little maintanance and just slight tweaking to the gate valve once in a while. Best of all, it IS SILENT once you have the patience to dail it in properly.
Still trying to help when I can.............
Good luck...........Herbie

jdircksen · #**695** 01/09/2007, 09:50 PM

I think rdmpe and Herbie are right. The vertical overflows with bulkheads in the bottom of the tank allow you to put the drain and emergency further apart. This means there is less need for adjustment because a small inconsistency will take longer to cause a problem when there is more water volume that needs to change. Solution for Clafo - make emergency drain as high as possible and regular drain as low as possible (maybe use a down turned 90).

And I think the air in the pipes causes problems too. This happens when power goes out and the pump shuts off. The air causes water to drain at a different rate so you tend to adjust your valves. But once the air finally escapes you have to adjust your valves again. Solution - make sure drain is not completely submerged in sump.

Herbie · #**696** 01/09/2007, 10:16 PM

Just one note on the Calfo overflow in regards to utilizing this system.
Just remember that in the event of a power stoppage, all the water in the overflow chamber (down to the main drain) will be draining back down into the sump. With a "normal" reef ready overflow chamber, and lets say keeping the water level 4" above the main drain standpipe........the drain off is minimal.........I would say approx 1-2 gallons . I would think a calfo style overflow would drain MUCH more water down to the sump in the event of a power stoppage.
Trying to impliment this system on a tank with directly plumbed in bulkheads (no overflow) would lead to a great deal of water going back down to the sump in the event of a power outage!

I would have to advise NOT to use this sytem if you can not keep the static drain off(the amount of water that will drain back to the sump when the pump is shut down).........down to under a few gallons. Or at least make sure your sump can handle the drain off amount.

Later.............Herbie

robertifly · #**697** 01/10/2007, 11:12 PM

I've siliently read this entire LONG post (thankfully I subscribed) and tonight I read jdircksen comments on his Calfo? overflow. I didn't know that's what it's called but that's what I built also. Thank Goodness for RC and Herbie's Silient Siphon, my tank is silient! And not too soon as I had definite plans to tear apart and start over this weekend. Thanks guys, Reefracer.

jacmyoung · #**698** 01/11/2007, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdircksen
I think rdmpe and Herbie are right. The vertical overflows with bulkheads in the bottom of the tank allow you to put the drain and emergency further apart. This means there is less need for adjustment because a small inconsistency will take longer to cause a problem when there is more water volume that needs to change. Solution for Clafo - make emergency drain as high as possible and regular drain as low as possible (maybe use a down turned 90).

And I think the air in the pipes causes problems too. This happens when power goes out and the pump shuts off. The air causes water to drain at a different rate so you tend to adjust your valves. But once the air finally escapes you have to adjust your valves again. Solution - make sure drain is not completely submerged in sump.

I don't think the differential between the main drain and the emergency is the issue rather the limited height in the Calfo style overflow box.

I don't use an emergency drain, once the valve is dialed in, I can turn my return pump on and off without any more adjustment, my water level in the overflow box quickly stablizes at about 18" above the drain intake and 2" from the top of the box, after air is flushed down the sump.

From what I can see of the Calfo box, there is just no such depth to allow the drain intake submerged very deep. When the drain can not be submerged deep, air always can get in and make adjustment/stabilization difficult, even if you don't use an emergency drain. Of course having a second drain can only further reduce your room for play.

I would try to take out the 90 degree elbow, that will give another inch of vertical to play.

robertifly · #**699** 01/11/2007, 07:05 AM

My box is 5x5" inside dim. drains are 1.5", one at either side of tank, one turned down, one turned up (ermerg. drain). No air enters at all, I turn pumps off and back on the level stablilizes and runs just under 1/2 full, very quietly. It does empty the overflow down to bottom of the 90 so better make sure you have the room in your sump for it. Mine drains and still has about 3" to spare. I cannot find a problem with it so far.

spider86 · #**700** 01/11/2007, 11:33 AM

Well after days of tinkering, redoing and testing my plumbing trying to get Herbie to work on my Calfo, I finally got it working and its silent. One of my initial problems was that I had the 2 returns joining thru a tee into 1 into the sump. I redid it into individual lines, which gave me more control of each. I turned 1 elbow down and sealed off the air to it and is the main drain to sump. The other elbow is turned up and acts as my emergency drain. When the pump is turned off and on, the water level raises just above the emerg drain then quickly falls to a stable water level with the box. The problem before was that when I did this the main drain would not start soon enough causing the water level in the tank to raise quickly. Now the KEY in my situation was to have the main drain outlet in the sump about 3/4 of an inch deep. This way the air that is trapped inside the pipe can escape w/o having the water pressure of a deep outlet. This way works perfectly quiet with no bubbles dumping into the sump.