Lighting Website Updates

[reeflover2]

Is Iwasaki going to make that bulb in a 250W version? Are you also talking about 310 Par at 20"? On Sanjays website at what distance are the par measurements taken? Thanks

[Robert Patterso]

Can someone tell me the pros and cons of a pulse start ballast. M138, good, bad in a 400w.

[djc1026]

Anyone have any idea of the PAR on the reeflux bulbs, or a bulb they are comparable to?

Dave

[Randall_James]

Just love reading this thread and lurking but I have a question for Sanjay....

Below are links to a couple retrofit LED bulbs that are to replace medium mogul lamps rated at up to 250W.

Have you ever tested any of these bulbs?
Do these bulbs appear to be worth testing in your opinion?
Would you be willing to if someone else paid for the bulbs?


http://www.oksolar.com/n_cart/produc...20LED%20120VAC
http://www.oksolar.com/0_n_cart/htm/01503.htm

[Sanjay]

Originally posted by Robert Patterso
Can someone tell me the pros and cons of a pulse start ballast. M138, good, bad in a 400w.

Unfortuantely, there are no lamps in 400W that I have seen that are designed for pulse start. To take advantage of the technology of pulse start, the lamps need to be designed for it.
Almost all lamps in 400W are probe start lamps.

While pulse start ballasts may work with probe start lamps, there is really no advantage to be gained by using the pulse start ballasts with these lamps.

sanjay.

[Sanjay]

Originally posted by djc1026
Anyone have any idea of the PAR on the reeflux bulbs, or a bulb they are comparable to?

Dave

I will be testing these soon. david just sent me some lamps.

sanjay.

[Sanjay]

Originally posted by Randall_James
Just love reading this thread and lurking but I have a question for Sanjay....

Below are links to a couple retrofit LED bulbs that are to replace medium mogul lamps rated at up to 250W.

Have you ever tested any of these bulbs?
Do these bulbs appear to be worth testing in your opinion?
Would you be willing to if someone else paid for the bulbs?


http://www.oksolar.com/n_cart/produc...20LED%20120VAC
http://www.oksolar.com/0_n_cart/htm/01503.htm

I have not tested any of these new led bulbs. If the spectrum is reasonably then they would be worth testing.

Yes, I would be willing to test some of these if they show potential for aquarium use.

sanjay.

[TropTrea]

Lrd Lighting

Well I have looked into those lights and have made some conclusions loooking at both Sanjay's pages as well as the manufacturers pages.

The first conclusion is that the manufacturers data is correct for these bulbs. Mainly that they are aimular to 20K 250 Watt metal hides. They even produced some impressive spectrum plots that were very encouraging. as well as claims that these new lighting systems produce PAR values of at least what a 20K 250 Watt bulb produces.

My second conclusion comes after reviewing Sanjay's data on 250 Watt 20,000K bulbs. These bulbs appear to be the lowest in PAR value of any of the 250 Watt bulbs with the lower the Kelvin rating bulbs producing much higher PAR values.

As light penetrates the oceans in nature the shorter wave lenght light penetrates deeper than the longer wave lenght light. Therefore deep water lighting will have a higher Kelvin temperature and lower PAR value than shallow water light.

So my final thoughts are that for most Coral growth the these lighting fixtures will not produce the neccessary light as would a 6,500 K 250 Watt Metal Hide.

However if someone is creating a deep water tank, using corals with a high florescence, and interested more in appearance than coral growth these lights may work very well for them.

In the mean time I'll wait till they produce a LED system that has more light in the yellow and red wave lenghts for my prefence in coral growth. My other issue on these lights are there present pricing which I'm will fall as the research and developmental costs get paid off.

Hopefully Sanjay will comment in either disagreement or agreement with me on this as I look at him being much more knowledgable in this area than I am.

Dennis

[hahnmeister]

I agree with the need for a 'fuller' spectrum. You know that 'faded pastel' look that some T5 lit tanks have? Its because there isnt enough red/yellow light. Bluer halide bulbs still give out a good amount of all spectrums... just with alot more blue. But many phosphor based bulbs that are bluer lack warmer spectrums all together. Since coral pigments are a response to excess light spectrums that the corals doesnt need, then running a narrow spectrum of blue is going to eliminate the need for corals to reflect other wavelengths. This is the case with pheonix 14,000K bulbs as well. They have such a high output, but its mostly blue... more than many 20,000Ks, and little else. Many people report 'washed out' coloration of their corals after some time because of this. Sure, the blue and purple corals, sometimes green ones, look very blue, but thats all. The reds turn purple, pinks turn blue, etc. Since LEDs also have a very narrow output, I can see similar problems. Many T5 users have discovered that adding in a 6500K bulb or 3000K bulb to 'round out' the spectrum has a huge impact on coral coloration. I have a friend who ran his tank with nothing but radium halides (250watt20,000Ks at each end, and a 400wattRadium in the center), and on top of that used dual 160watt VHO Actinics. It looked really 'deep blue sea' and all, like 40,000K or something, and his corals grew well, but they were all the same color, or very similar. Recently he switched to a new maristar unit, 3x250wattDE Ushio 14,000Ks (Great bulb BTW, possibly more output than the 10,000K, and a nice pure white look), and blue+ T5 bulbs to suppliment. His tank has gone through a 'rebirth'. All of a sudden, you can see all the choice looking corals he keeps that were covered in a cloak of blue for so long.

I agree, something of a red/yellow LED will most likely be needed to round out the spectrum on these LED units. As is, the white LED's peak in the blue range and have some green, and little red specrtum, and the blue LEDs are just that... blue, and very narrow. Where are the warmer spectrums?

[Randall_James]

Originally posted by TropTrea
Lrd Lighting

Well I have looked into those lights and have made some conclusions loooking at both Sanjay's pages as well as the manufacturers pages.

The first conclusion is that the manufacturers data is correct for these bulbs. Mainly that they are aimular to 20K 250 Watt metal hides. They even produced some impressive spectrum plots that were very encouraging. as well as claims that these new lighting systems produce PAR values of at least what a 20K 250 Watt bulb produces.

My second conclusion comes after reviewing Sanjay's data on 250 Watt 20,000K bulbs. These bulbs appear to be the lowest in PAR value of any of the 250 Watt bulbs with the lower the Kelvin rating bulbs producing much higher PAR values.

As light penetrates the oceans in nature the shorter wave lenght light penetrates deeper than the longer wave lenght light. Therefore deep water lighting will have a higher Kelvin temperature and lower PAR value than shallow water light.

So my final thoughts are that for most Coral growth the these lighting fixtures will not produce the neccessary light as would a 6,500 K 250 Watt Metal Hide.

However if someone is creating a deep water tank, using corals with a high florescence, and interested more in appearance than coral growth these lights may work very well for them.

In the mean time I'll wait till they produce a LED system that has more light in the yellow and red wave lenghts for my prefence in coral growth. My other issue on these lights are there present pricing which I'm will fall as the research and developmental costs get paid off.

Hopefully Sanjay will comment in either disagreement or agreement with me on this as I look at him being much more knowledgable in this area than I am.

Dennis

I was unable to find any charts or figures on spectrum, where did you find this data?

[salmon alley]

Hi Sanjay,

I just finished looking through your lighting website and have a quick question:

You've got the Giesemann 250W DE bulb tested listed as the '13000K Coral' but most of the online vendors have two different DE bulbs from Giesemann listed:
13000K Marine
or
14500K Coral

Which is the DE bulb that you tested that produced 126 ppfd on a 250W HQI ballast?

Thanks!
Jeff

[hahnmeister]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/review2

[TropTrea]

Thanks for posting that spectrum for the LED light. Notice they peak at around 445 nm which is very blue. Then remember Chloraphyll and lot of the other photosynthesis chemcals require light in the 670 or longer wave lenght.

Now is someone is creating a deep deep water enviroment whare in nature the shorter wavelenght penetrate then this may be a better set up. However again I started reading that the Florescing deep water corals like light in the 385 to 420 nm range where this spectrum is also lacking.

Dennis

[hahnmeister]

But they dont. Dana Riddle's earlier test where a red and blue light were used and both corals did fine was not accurate enough to derive that. A more recent test showed that red LED's (LEDs having a much narrower bandwidth, where as before the red light had lots of blue still, and the blue had lots of red) caused the coral to 'brown out'. It was suggested that red light more readily causes the trigger for corals to react as if they had too much light (as more red light would mean being very close to the surface). I would also suggest that the browning out might be due to underexposure too, since the red light might have been so useless that the coral browned due to too little light, not even using the red LED's light, and thinking it was otherwise light-starved. Eventually, the Posci that was exposed to the RED LED started bleaching.

The Blue LED was exact opposite. Even at very high exposures, the coral wouldnt bleach out, and continued to grow.

I have had similar experiences. My Aqualine 10,000K 250wattDE bulbs were causing many of my corals to brown out. Yet, an even higher wattate bulb in its place (a 400 watt 20,000K) did not. The AB contains a large percentage of red, and not as much blue, so its more likely to trigger the 'browning out' that a much bluer bulb, even of higher PAR, would not. Instead the 20,000K 400watter just kept making the corals color up more and more.

OTOH, not enough red light is why many T5 users report their red/orange/yellow corals fading... and the response (with great results) has been to throw a 6500K, ATI sun pro, or 3000K bulb in with all the blue, actinic, and dayblue bulbs to help add some red/orange/yellow to the mix. And the pink poscillipora corals, pink birdsest, red brains, etc color back in very well.

One thing that you will notice in that review is a breakdown of the percentages of light spectra... even the XM 20,000K has some decent percentages of the full range of spectrums. The LED (much like many T5s) does not. Riddle suggests that this may be to corals advantage, as according to the PUR of many corals, the blue is more important than many other wavelengths. This may be true, and I think its a reason why some can switch from 10,000Ks to 14,000Ks and actually report better coral growth despite the lower PAR, but too go as far as eliminating those other spectrums, IMO, will be LED's shortcoming. They will have to add some yellow/red/orange LED's to the mix (just a few), to help make sure that the corals dont end up like those 'pastel' faded corals in some T5 lit tanks.

Here's a theory of mine I hope to test: I would suggest that corals base their degree of pigmentation, as what they 'sense' as their exposure to the sun, on the amount of red light, and then the blue is all used for growth. This would be very efficient, since whatever photosensors that the cells have would absorb would be captured and therefore no longer available for photosynthesis, and absorbing blue spectrums would mean they would be taking away from the light that the cell would use for photosynthesis. By only 'seeing' in the red spectrums, the coral would be able to determine its depth in the ocean much better (and with much more accuracy) than with blue, at least to the extent that the red would indicate when the coral is too shallow and make the coral's pigments stronger. So perhaps corals use blue for growth, and red to determine pigmentation. Just a theory... but it seems to ring true so far.

Dennis>>> Just thought you might want to take into consideration how Dana claims that the lower PAR of the LED unit is made up for by a better PUR since its spectrums are heavy in the blue spectrum.

[RedEyeReef]

Is the 400w Coralvue Reeflux 12K (not 10K) on the list to be tested anytime soon?

Anyone using this bulb like to comment?

[ggmichael]

70 gal SW tank, 25" deep, 36" wide, looking at a Outer Orbit Metal HQI Halide Light Fixture with 2x150MH, 2x39W Actinic (460nm), 2x39W Actinic (420nm), 9 blue lunar and 9 white lunar. The 4 Actinic bulbs are T-5s. That will give us about 6.5W per gallon which should help us to grow some good corals. It is made by Current-USA. Any opinions?

[TropTrea]

A few days ago I was viewing a chart on photosynthesis chemicals and what wavelenghts of light there most readily utilized by each. What I noted was many of these were only using a very narrow spectrum of wave lenghts.

With this in mind and the known adaptibility of many corals I believe that wat is happening is that the chemicals balance changes in corals to match what is available to them for photosynthesis. When we see a coral browning what were actually seeing is the decrease of one chemical and the increase in another chemical which can be productive with the available light.

Keeping this in mind as one is aclimating the corals it could actually be possible to find the right wavelenght light to increase some of the color intensity of specific corals. I think hahnmeister might have something on his comment about cololoring up corals under T-5 lighting with the addition of some 3,000K to 6,500K light. It makes loads of sense.

Dennis

[Brent Thomann]

Originally posted by RedEyeReef
Is the 400w Coralvue Reeflux 12K (not 10K) on the list to be tested anytime soon?

Anyone using this bulb like to comment?

I recently replaced my old coralvue 250w HQI's 14k w/ the newer coralvue reeflux 12k HQI. I know you're asking about the 400w, would imagine the 250w are similar.

All I have to say is wow! very impressed, corals colored up much much more. The reeflux 12k are MUCH more bluer than the coralvue 14k's. Almost look like a 20k bulb. Haven't really noticed a big change in coral growth, only been 2 weeks though.

Really anxious to see how they test out sanjay

[TropTrea]

I think this is fin example of how we should not go by manufacturers data. Theoreticly a 14K bulb should be bluer and less bright appearing than a 12K bulb. However we have two bulbs by the same manufacturer that display the reverse of what we would expect.

This makes me wonjhder where manufacturers get the Kelvin ratings from? Do they just pull them out of a majic hat. Where are the truth in advertising laws on these light bulbs?

Sanjay is doing the hobby a great service by testing these bulbs and reporting there performance in an unbiased way. However Sanjay has limited time and resources so he cannot test every new lighting system or bulb as fast as they come out on the market.

What would be great would be some unbiased group that could test lighing systems, create a universal standard and approval system. It could actually be funded by the bulb manufacturers who either pay X fee for each bulb they want listed or there products are not listed. This would be simular to how UL, CSA, and other agencies work.

Dennis

Originally posted by humpn247
I recently replaced my old coralvue 250w HQI's 14k w/ the newer coralvue reeflux 12k HQI. I know you're asking about the 400w, would imagine the 250w are similar.

All I have to say is wow! very impressed, corals colored up much much more. The reeflux 12k are MUCH more bluer than the coralvue 14k's. Almost look like a 20k bulb. Haven't really noticed a big change in coral growth, only been 2 weeks though.

Really anxious to see how they test out sanjay

[Sanjay]

Originally posted by TropTrea
I think this is fin example of how we should not go by manufacturers data. Theoreticly a 14K bulb should be bluer and less bright appearing than a 12K bulb. However we have two bulbs by the same manufacturer that display the reverse of what we would expect.

This makes me wonjhder where manufacturers get the Kelvin ratings from? Do they just pull them out of a majic hat. Where are the truth in advertising laws on these light bulbs?

Sanjay is doing the hobby a great service by testing these bulbs and reporting there performance in an unbiased way. However Sanjay has limited time and resources so he cannot test every new lighting system or bulb as fast as they come out on the market.

What would be great would be some unbiased group that could test lighing systems, create a universal standard and approval system. It could actually be funded by the bulb manufacturers who either pay X fee for each bulb they want listed or there products are not listed. This would be simular to how UL, CSA, and other agencies work.

Dennis

You are right. Most manufacturer's tend to pull numbers to increase thier sales. There is often no basis for the numbers. There are however manufacturer's whose numbers are more trustworthy... eg. Iwasaki, Ushio and other German/Japanese manufacturers. Color temperature is very finiky and sensitive to a lot of parameters especially in metal halides.. so if it comes within the ball park of advertised numbers its reasonabale.

If you look at the data, you will find some 10K rated lamps have spectrum's that look like 20K rated lamps.

You are also right about me having limited time to do this.. especially on lamps that I particularly have no interest in ever using. Those get pushed lower into the queue Additionally, time devoted to testing comes after work, family, my tanks, and other fun stuff.. and then what ever is left gets used for testing. Although at times I have reversed the order of things. Used to be that my tanks were self supporting and it gave me more time to play with lighting.. but right now I am in the throws of getting a new 500G tank going, and finishing off the basement. So, I end up spending more time with the development of my tank. Things are about to reach a steady state with the tank and I will be getting back to testing around Thanksgiving timeframe.

sanjay.

[Mr Howdy]

Sanjay
I am new to the board but because I am setting up a new tank and I was wondering what your lighting set up will be. I will have a 60 x 48 x 31" deep tank and I am starting with 3 luminarc III reflectors. I am sure you have answered this question already but I could not find it.
Regards

[FVernese]

Sanjay or anyone I would very much appreciate help with lighting question?

I am trying to decide on lighting a new reef tank I ordered (74x31x29h). Tank will be mostly SPS with few soft corals. I was going to go with 3 (400w 10,000K SE) however, based on your research the XM 250 W 10,000K SE with PFO HQI ballast have PPFD of 182 and .49 eficiency. Since that is higher than most 400 W SE bulbs why go with 400W bulbs that are more amps and hotter? Am I missing something?

Thanks
Frank

[hahnmeister]

FVernese,
Sanjay tests all combinations that work, but that doesnt mean you should run them like that. The reason the XM 400wattSEs run with such a great output on the HQI ballast is because the HQI ballast is overdriving the bulb... like running your car on jet fuel. Sure, the first few months will be great, with blinding output, but after that, the HQI will burn that bulb out like a firecracker... 60% gone by 9-12 months.

Most 400wattSE bulbs are not HQI rated, but really probe start, and so they should be run with electronic ballasts only. Running them on HQI might give a huge boost to begin with, but that low pressure bulb is being run with a high-pressure rated ballast that will kill it that much faster.

If you want a true HQI rated bulb, I believe Ushio and Aqualine Buschke's 400wattSEs are high-pressure bulbs. Otherwise, I also know Aquaconnect 14,000K, and some Ushio/BLV ones are as well. These bulbs will last longer, and give you more output in the long run.

Otherwise, for a 29" tall tank, I would just use 250wattDE bulbs in some nice reflectors. XDE 10,000Ks would be my choice, with Lumenarc DE fixtures or similar for a nice spread.

Mr Howdy, Sanjay has his new reef detailed in this thread...
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=730564
He is using lumenarcs with 10,000Ks... and the rest is there^^^

[FVernese]

Hahnmeister

Thank you so much for the information. I think the 250 XDEs may be the way to go. What about a 400SE in center and 250 DEs on each side or just go with three 250 XDEs?

The tank I ordered is 74 x 31 x 29 h, but it has Euro brace plus steel brace so I have two 2 inch straps font to back (Aquariums For You would not guarantee Euro brace alone so they reduced size of Eruo Brace to 2 inches and added Steel brace). That gives me three 27x 22.4 inch openings. I like the Lumenarcs but they are big and if I wanted to add VHOs or more lighting in future there would not be sufficient room. Is there another reflector you could recommend that is a little smaller?

Thank you and regards
Frank

[Sanjay]

Frank,

For a tank that is 31" wide, you will definately need to go with a reflector that will give you a wider spread, that mean a larger reflector. Have yoou seen the smaller verions of the lumenarc or the lumenmax. ? I think if you can accomodate those it will be a good choice. The smaller lumenmax has a version with the DE lamps. I am not sure of the exact dimensions, but you can find that on the Sunlight Suppy and Pacific garden supply website.

250W lamps will be fine, with these reflectors.

sanjay.