my house reef (211 g.) - Page 20

Lights Are Bright · #**476** 02/03/2006, 01:12 PM

What is fluidised aragonite? I dont mind sandbeds, I just dont have anywhere to put one.

TryTheChi · #**477** 02/03/2006, 01:36 PM

Hi LIB

Fluididised aragonite is just aragonite put in a fluidining filter such as the Deltec FR509 (but the brand doesnt matter).

The advantage of fluidising a media is that more of the surface area is exposed to water flow and is therefor more efficient.

In the past - fluidised reactors have been critisised for being good at reducing NH3 NO2 but poor at dealing with NO3 - as this is not a low oxygen environment - the flow is too fast

However, it may be worth a try with these super bacs.

The reason I suggest arragonite is that it will buffer your tank with all that acidification taking place - and make a contribution to maintaining CA and Alk.

A further interesting area for investigation is that it may also release bacteri (with a daily shake) to feed the corals as in Zeo reactor method. THe Zeolites seem to have two functions - 1 as an NH3 adsorber and 2 as a bac bed.

I tired to investigate that possibility over on that forum but it was regarded as 'esoteric' by one moderator.

I'm going to give it a try once I feel the effect of the current changes have leveled out. I'll convert my rowaphos reactor for this.

A question will be grain size. In normal opperation, smaller grains are recommended as they are easier to fluidise - but to emulate the Zeo mulm released from the larger zeo rocks - larger aragonite may be better.

CHeers

SImon

Travis · #**478** 02/03/2006, 02:26 PM

TryTheChi, why is there so much concern about the acids from the bacteria working with Prodibio and not with ZEOvit? A lot of people run ZEOvit tanks without any sandbeds so I'm not sure why there would be an elevated concern of the acidity effect with Prodibio. I may just be missing the point about needing extra aragonite for buffering. Although, I agree that in this type of system it would probably be beneficial to maximize the surface area that the bacteria can grow on and do its thing.

TryTheChi · #**479** 02/03/2006, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Travis
TryTheChi, why is there so much concern about the acids from the bacteria working with Prodibio and not with ZEOvit? A lot of people run ZEOvit tanks without any sandbeds so I'm not sure why there would be an elevated concern of the acidity effect with Prodibio. I may just be missing the point about needing extra aragonite for buffering. Although, I agree that in this type of system it would probably be beneficial to maximize the surface area that the bacteria can grow on and do its thing.

Hi Travis

Zeo are very careful to build up the systems' capacity gradually to take N&P to 0 with 3 phases and frequent monitoring of impact on params, and a major factor for the zeo approach is that the zeolites adsorb NH3 directly - not making it available for bacteria to decompose and therefore less acidification pressure would exist.

I dont know if downward pressure on PH can be an issue with Prodi or not - wasnt for me. However - if I were running an aragonite free tank - I'd be looking for a little insurance -

Prodi dosage is the same in week 1 as it is week 56 (except for cycling new tanks) , and assumming equal stocking levels - there is probably more for the bac to do in week 1 for some tanks...?

Like I say - I dont know for sure - just thinking arround the issues.

Cheers

SImon

ps8411 · #**480** 02/04/2006, 09:11 AM

TryTheChi,

Thank you for your detailed overview of the "Iwan Method"!

I happened to just come across this thread...as right now I'm setting up a 175g sps tank and have decided to emmulate Iwan's tank as I stated before! This week I've added my 200 lbs of LR from Fiji; have (2) EuroReef Skimmers in the sump; and set up a arog MSB of about 2.5 inches. Also just ordered my Tek lighting of T5's (2) 36" units from Sunlight Supply and wil hang them this week. And now as the tank is going through it's cycle I'm pricing around for a Calcium reactor and chiller....

My question to you and Iwan is....

1) Do you recommend I go ahead now and start the implementation of the Prodbio supplements?

2) Can you give me a little list of what other products I need to order from that French Company link you posted above to start with?

Just trying to simplify this process and do it right the first time around!

Thanks for taking the time to get me over the learning curve of supplementation!

PS8411

TryTheChi · #**481** 02/04/2006, 12:46 PM

Hi PS

Iwan is the master - however this is taken from the Prodi website:

"BIO DIGEST is particularly efficient the 2 weeks that follow its application. Bacterial multiplication speeds, different according to strains, allow to preserve these optimal purification proportions 15 days. If one wants to accelerate the process of purification it is not necessary to overdose but to near utilizations. Each week for example.

Aquarium starting up :

1 ampoule per 60 litres + 1 ampoule for the filter.

Aquarium purifier :

1 ampoule up to 1.000 litres every 15 days.

Strongly shake each ampoule for 15 seconds to ensure that the bacteria in the points are included in the solution. Dilute with 1 litre of aquarium water before pouring the mixture into the aquarium and the filter.

The purifying action of BIO DIGEST is strengthened by the association with BIO TRACE."

Hopefully you'll be able to calculate what you need from the list in the summarry? You have a 700ltr aquarium is this net or gross?

If this is net - Prodi's recomendation is that you would need 12 ampules of the Digest as the first innoculation to a new and cycling tank, then 1 every 2 weeks after that.

You'll then need 3 ampules PTIM (or Trace if that all thats available) every 2 weeks from the second innoculation, and 2 ampules Reef booster each week. I would hang back on the Booster untill you have started stocking, and then start with 1 amp until stocking density gets a little more than sparce

The Zeo products are aimed at SPS - so suggest these can wait until SPS are introduced. Please see Iwans summarry over on Zeo land for some additional tips re the Zeo products.

Exciting stuff. Please keep us informed of progress

HTH

Simon

ps8411 · #**482** 02/04/2006, 01:17 PM

Simon,

Thanks for the quick response! I will be ordering my Prodibio products today!

I guess this new tank I'm setting up will be another Beta test case for your's and Iwan's successful methodology for running a very natural Reef system in Europe. I will be one of the newbies here in the States! Perhaps you and Iwan can start up a specialized forum here or at Reef Central for us to share more info as we all break the mold and think outside of the box!

I will share the results of my new "Iwan System" as things unfold.... (Perhaps we need to a new acronym to describe what you guys are doing). LOL

Scott
(PS8411)

TryTheChi · #**483** 02/04/2006, 06:00 PM

Thought I'd share a couple of pics of my tank - 3 weeks into Prodi and 4 months old - early days yet

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...93Misc_174.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...93Misc_162.jpg

Does mayone know how to post these in the message please.

Cheers

SImon

melev · #**484** 02/04/2006, 06:54 PM

Simon, take that entire URL, and put the IMG tags around it.

[ img]URL[ /img] (spaces inserted so you can see this example, so they would need to be removed)

TryTheChi · #**485** 02/05/2006, 03:04 AM

Thanks Melev

asnatlas · #**486** 02/05/2006, 05:21 AM

TryTheChi · #**487** 02/05/2006, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps8411
Simon,

Thanks for the quick response! I will be ordering my Prodibio products today!

I guess this new tank I'm setting up will be another Beta test case for your's and Iwan's successful methodology for running a very natural Reef system in Europe. I will be one of the newbies here in the States! Perhaps you and Iwan can start up a specialized forum here or at Reef Central for us to share more info as we all break the mold and think outside of the box!

I will share the results of my new "Iwan System" as things unfold.... (Perhaps we need to a new acronym to describe what you guys are doing). LOL

Scott
(PS8411)

Hi Scott -

I'm an 'Iwan Method' newbee too just eight weeks into the Prodibio dosing myself - Iwan is the master - all I did was sumarise his approach and started a little earlier than some reefers here, and reported the benefits to date in my reef.

Iwan said earlier that he was happy for our expierce to be reported here

Shawn - many thanks for doing that.

Cheers

Simon

chainsaw5vent · #**488** 02/05/2006, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TryTheChi
Thought I'd share a couple of pics of my tank - 3 weeks into Prodi and 4 months old - early days yet

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...93Misc_174.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/...93Misc_162.jpg

Does mayone know how to post these in the message please.

Cheers

SImon

your tank looks like that after 3-4 months??

awesome!!!

Floridiot · #**489** 02/05/2006, 12:18 PM

TryTheChi,

Nice looking mixed reef!

I'm eagerly awaiting my Prodibio products via airmail. I'm also taking some baseline readings of my saltwater for PO4 and NO3. I've already taken one sample from my aquarium and ran a test on it for Nitrates which came back undetectable via SeaChem nitrate test kit. I was going to try a Salifert kit , but have since read that the SeaChem is as good for testing Nitrates. I also checked the Seachem reference sample and my test kit read it properly.

For testing PO4, I'm lucky enough to have a friend who manages a lab and is willing to test my total phospherous levels for me using an ascorbic acid procedure which is performed on an Auto Analyzer which is EPA 365.4 approved (whatever that means?). I've taken one 250mL sample already (on 2/2) which has been collected in a phospherous free sample bottle and preserved by the addition of sulfuric acid. I will take another baseline sample on 2/9 before I start any Prodibio additions. That is when he'll test these first two samples and give me the results. He mentioned that there will be additional calculations to figure out the PO4 vs. the total phospherous readings.

I will record every single time I perform any maintenance to my tank over the next 10 weeks, and highlight anything out of the ordinary (such as on Wednesday when I'm getting another frag shipment from kmagyar

). It is almost impossible to perform a truly scientific test, but I will try to keep my routine as regular as possible and will avoid adding any fish or inverts during this period of time.

I feed exactly 2 cubes of Marine Angelfish food and 1 cube of Prime Reef every two days, and will continue this feeding schedule. I will test NO3 every week, and PO4 on the 6th week and 10th week. If the prodibio helps lower my phosphate readings, and no one has struck a distributorship deal with Prodibio, I'll be flying to France to meet with Mr. Rodriguez and discuss a business venture with him.

I'm certain that if this stuff works, Prodibio will definitely be available inside the US very soon. I definitely will publish my results here on RC, but for business purposes alone, I will not be publishing any of my test results until April/May of this year.

TryTheChi · #**490** 02/05/2006, 01:01 PM

Thanks for the compliments folks - still 20 moons before it has any chance of looking like Iwans reef though.

The sps frag planting scheme with be completed within the month - then its time to let it grow

Floridot - if you are going into partnership as US distributor - why not take up Scott's idea and moderate a specialty forum with this approach?

I'd be happy to help out. Maybe even Iwan would help?

On the PO4 results - I'd honour any confidentiality if you wanted to PM me. I'm in the UK and have no commercial interests in anything.

We'll know when you are rich when you start putting up posts for 3000 gal system upgrades

Cheers

Simon

Floridiot · #**491** 02/05/2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TryTheChi
Floridot - if you are going into partnership as US distributor - why not take up Scott's idea and moderate a specialty forum with this approach?

If I were to strike a business deal, I would definitely become an RC sponsor and host a Prodibio forum in the sponsor section. That is a no-brainer. I'd also setup a booth at every aquarium show across the US.

Reefflections · #**492** 02/05/2006, 07:15 PM

Simon
I was the one that mentioned a forum for this product.Because folks will have a lot questions as more come aboard.I'm still here and still going along for a ride on this post.As more post are made here.
Curt

TryTheChi · #**493** 02/05/2006, 08:06 PM

Opps sorry Curt

Reefflections · #**494** 02/05/2006, 09:08 PM

No that's ok Simon.You just need some way to keep in touch.With everyone,that's wants to read more about itOnes having problems,and the positives results also.But you will get the negative side of a new product also.I think that's why Zeo made their own site.So the bashing would stop.It seems this happens when anything new that's comes into play.
Curt

ahchung · #**495** 02/06/2006, 08:49 AM

Ivan, can you tell me whether the reflectors in your new ATI power module are W-shaped or not?

iwan · #**496** 02/06/2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ahchung
Ivan, can you tell me whether the reflectors in your new ATI power module are W-shaped or not?

The ATI use one reflector per every bulb. The reflectors have a U-design.

iwan · #**497** 02/06/2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TryTheChi
Thanks for the compliments folks - still 20 moons before it has any chance of looking like Iwans reef though. The sps frag planting scheme with be completed within the month - then its time to let it grow

Floridot - if you are going into partnership as US distributor - why not take up Scott's idea and moderate a specialty forum with this approach?

I'd be happy to help out. Maybe even Iwan would help?

On the PO4 results - I'd honour any confidentiality if you wanted to PM me. I'm in the UK and have no commercial interests in anything.

We'll know when you are rich when you start putting up posts for 3000 gal system upgrades

Cheers

Simon

Sounds interesting. I am with you and would be happy to support you.

robwsup · #**498** 02/06/2006, 05:04 PM

Iwan,
I've lost it in the 20 pages, but which particular Prodibio products are you using?

TryTheChi · #**499** 02/06/2006, 05:08 PM

I'v just had an astonishing experience over on Zeo land.

Bob (Aged Salt) has banned me ostensibly because of reply #s 27 and 57 on the Prodibio thread.

Would people mind going over and having a look and provide some honnest feedback for me here - does my contribution to that thread constitute reasonable grounds for banning?

My view ( and I could be mistaken) is that persistant enquiries arround the functioning of ZB3 compared with Prodi 3 and Bobs' inability to provide a plausable explanation for his critisism of it become too uncomfortable.

Shame in a way - as I have never challenged Zeo as a feasable method - the inference he must have taken is that Prodi Digest TPIM and Booster provides a viable alternative that delivers the same outcomes in reducing N03 and PO4 using cheaper and easier to administer products. Behind that may have been sponsor pressures.

Infact Thomas Phol himself - the creator of Zeo method is looking at the thread now - which must indicate some level of concern/interest.

Oh well, no great loss I guess - learned much of what matters from the Zeo tool box.

Look forward to any feedback from those kind enought to have a look.

Many thanks

Simon

robwsup · #**500** 02/06/2006, 05:34 PM

Just looked through the thread. You didn't seem to be doing anything that warranted banning. Zeovit always seems to cause commotion when discussed. Remember the Zeo threads here on RC? They got out of hand a few times, almost like the DSB/BB crowd.