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#26
11/18/2007, 01:19 AM
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BTW Doc.
Congrats on winning the Big Ten title. You've got quite a team this year. My Fighting Illini just had their number. 
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#27
11/18/2007, 01:25 AM
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Billy, I would not question it / say, as Boron is can be used up pretty fast in a reef tank if it is not sup'd. And there are a few other guys also with very low B. It also may be the salt used.
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#28
11/18/2007, 01:43 AM
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Yes but aren't those other guys going by AWT results ?
Are we are sure they are testing for boron properly ? Randy talks like there should be an average of 4.4 ppm boron Something is amiss me thinks.
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#29
11/18/2007, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
I was using 100% Kent, and switched to a 60% Tropic Marin Pro / 40% Kent mix. The pH on Kent's salt on a fresh mix is a little too low to get an accurate Boron reading. Salifert claims that it needs from 8.0-8.5 I believe it was to get a reading, but with 8.1 (fresh Kent mix) it won't test because it's too low.
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-Eric- CORA Member |
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#30
11/18/2007, 11:37 AM
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I would be curious to know what the boron level tests at in a freshly mixed batch of saltwater.
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#31
11/18/2007, 12:55 PM
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Yes but aren't those other guys going by AWT results ?
Some have of normal levels and some have low levels from AWT. Some salt mixes are low in B. *If you go by past salt assay they are all over the place from high to low depending on brand. [b]Randy talks like there should be an average of 4.4 ppm boron[b] Yes should be but does not me is. Randy only tested IO. I would be curious to know what the boron level tests at in a freshly mixed batch of saltwater. Some have sent in fresh seawater. Most are getting normal levels. Some have had B to ~ 1 ppm and some salt brand freshly mixed can be and are at ~1 ppm or less. I question allot of their tests to include B. But some tanks are going to have low B just like some salt mixes may be low B. Even if a fresh salt mix tests normal it does not mean the tank is normal. So, I'm not surprised that B is all over the place on these tests. Few sup with B. Dr is using Oceanic IIRC, which in past test has shown to be ~ 1 ppm B and NSW is ~4.5 ppm. In short I think AWT has raced off so to speak to quickly to start this business. I have even given them RC links to the questions and wonder why they are not here with answers. They should know we can make them or break them What also bother me is they do not have or give a phone number. And they have never called me and I asked them to. I guess they seem to think we are not good enough to talk to  I told them flat we are not a bunch of dummies and we know allot more than they think we know  I also gave the a link to Randy's Reef Chemistry Articles to prove a point.
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#32
11/18/2007, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
I suspect, as Randy says, Boron isn't really important to test for in the first place. From his article "In general, boron is not an important element to control in aquaria."
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#33
11/18/2007, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Don |
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#34
11/18/2007, 03:55 PM
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WOW, thanks Don for that
 Now that is a conflict of inrterest, as they sell a aquamedic salt. http://www.aqua-medic.com/reef_salt.shtml Aqaumedica http://www.aqua-medic.com/ Aqua Medic of North America 546 S.E 8th St Unit C-16 Loveland, CO 80537 Phone: 970.461.0023 Fax: 970.461.5879 Toll Free: 877.208.2633 AWT A division of Global Aquatic Products, Inc. 546 8th Street SE Suite C-16 Loveland CO, 80537
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#35
11/18/2007, 05:59 PM
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Wow...
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My Pit Bulls aren't mean, you're just a sissy! Don't breed or buy while shelter animals die, and don't forget real men have their own balls. (Tonya?) Spay and neuter your pets. |
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#36
11/18/2007, 07:03 PM
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Its really not supprising that something is off. "Real" labs charge at least three times that amount for testing alone. With additional fees because its SW. Our local spectra lab gets $100+ for just a handful of test. The sample containers are additional.
Don |
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#38
11/18/2007, 08:53 PM
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Yah, I know Don. ECN, a seawater testing lab, is ~ $45 /single parameter. AWT does not want to seem to tell me how they are measuring things or what procedures they are using on any test.
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#39
11/18/2007, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Don |
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#40
11/18/2007, 11:26 PM
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Nah Don, you can't test things like Mo with a probe. They say they are using spectrophotometry, auto-titration, and specialized ion specific probes, aka ISE as you mentioned
Now that you have blown the whistle, in my mind anyway, I'm thinkin more like they went out and bought a HACH Spectrophotometer, like a DR 5000 or DR 2800, sup's it with a auto titrator (maybe for Mg++, Ca++ and ALK) and some ISE's and then gave a couple of lab rat a jod And YES, thinkin that reealllly bothers me. There are lots of issues with Spectro's if you do not know what you are doing, same with ISE probes. And all of this would explain so many funny results. Not a very BRIGHT idea to have the same address  They came across, like they where already a lab and this AWT was just a side business. I no longer have any/much hope for their test procedures.......BUSTED>>>>>>>>>>> |
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#42
11/19/2007, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Hopefully they will step up to the plate and show that I'm wrong. I think your giving them to much credit. This does not seem like a operation that has made that sort of capital investment. I think we both know supply and demand isnt high enough to justify that high of an investment for aquarium water alone. I could justify a sideline to a existing lab. But then I would expect an existing lab even if all they did was well water samples would know how to get accurate SW results. Ive got some oil samples going to spectra tomorrow. I'll talk to them about an aquarium testing package if there is actually that many people wanting lab testing. Don |
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#43
11/19/2007, 11:06 AM
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water samples would know how to get accurate SW results.
Nope Don, not unless they are famillar with the procedures and/or have the info to do those procedures for seawater. Many make this mistake, thinking you can test seawater just like you test FW. The salt affect many tests. There is a book out on testing seawater. Analysis of Seawater : A Guide for the Analytical and Environmental Chemist by T.R. Crompton, May 1, 2006 Methods of Seawater Analysis by Klaus Grasshoff, Nov 1983. But by all means ask them. So far it is only ENC Labs ENC Labs http://www.enclabs.com/index.htm
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#45
11/19/2007, 01:11 PM
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Don copper in NSW is ~ .0001- .0002 ppm or .1 - .2 ppb, or tell her 2.4 nmol/kg avg = 0.1524 ppb. So, 1 ppb or lower is what we would be looking for.
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#46
11/19/2007, 03:00 PM
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Here is their quote andcontact info. According to U of W marine EPA 6010 is the test standard or method they use, although I dont claim do understand it.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwacker/Quote.PDF |
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#47
11/19/2007, 04:00 PM
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As long as it is a marine or seawater std they/we are fine. I do not think we need to know how much copper there is in the water as far as tests go. All seasalts are below NSW. That "Digestion" why is that there we don't need it.
It looks like I missed another AWT error Copper (Cu++) Natural Seawater Value: 0.030 mg/L Ah nope, as I said more like .0002 NSW. Looks like they are off a decimal again like they were with Mo We could take that quote Don and add Bromide and OTO/TRO but I don t' think we will find many bitting on ~$8.00 / parameter. But I must say that is lots cheaper than ENC.
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#49
11/22/2007, 11:48 AM
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Thought you might be interested in this....
I sent in a sample of Petco "real ocean water".... Heated and circulated for 24h, I tested pH at 8.3 and sg of 1.026 by refractometer... ______________________________ Ammonia (NH3-4) 0.016 Good Nitrite (NO2) 0.007 Good Nitrate (NO3) 0.8 Good Phosphate (PO4) 0.04 Good Silica (SiO2-3) 0.0 Good Potassium (K) 315 Low Calcium (Ca) 372 Good Boron (B) 3.0 Good Molybdenum (Mo) 0.2 High Strontium (Sr) 9.2 Good Magnesium (Mg) 1137 Good Iodine (IŻ) 0.09 Good Copper (Cu++) 0.02 Good Alkalinity (meq/L) 6.42 High _________________________________ Ammonia (NH3-4) Natural Seawater Value: 0.010 mg/L Acceptable Range: 0.000 to 0.050 mg/L Tested: 0.016 mg/L (GOOD) Nitrite (NO2) Natural Seawater Value: 0.010 mg/L Acceptable Range: 0.000 to 0.100 mg/L Tested: 0.007 mg/L (GOOD) Nitrate (NO3) Natural Seawater Value: 0.050 mg/L Acceptable Range: 0.000 to 25 mg/L Tested: 0.8 mg/L (GOOD) Phosphate (PO4) Natural Seawater Value: 0.030 mg/L Acceptable Range: 0.000 to 0.250 mg/L Tested: 0.04 mg/L (GOOD) Silica (Sio2-3) Natural Seawater Value: 0.040 mg/L Acceptable Range: 0.000 to 0.500 mg/L Tested: 0.0 mg/L (GOOD) Potassium (K) Natural Seawater Value: 390 mg/L Acceptable Range: 350 to 450 mg/L Tested: 315 mg/L (LOW) Calcium (Ca) Natural Seawater Value: 400 mg/L Acceptable Range: 350 to 450 mg/L Tested: 372 mg/L (GOOD) Boron (B) Natural Seawater Value: 4.6 mg/L Acceptable Range: 3.0 – 6.0 mg/L Tested: 3.0 mg/L (GOOD) Molybdenum (Mo) Natural Seawater Value: 0.01 mg/L Acceptable Range: 0.0 to 0.12 mg/L Tested: 0.2 mg/L (HIGH) Strontium (Sr) Natural Seawater Value: 8.1 mg/L Acceptable Range: 5.0 to 12.0 mg/L Tested: 9.2 mg/L (GOOD) Magnesium (Mg) Natural Seawater Value: 1280 mg/L Acceptable Range: 1100 to 1400 mg/L Tested: 1137 mg/L (GOOD) Iodine (IŻ) Natural Seawater Value: 0.060 mg/L Acceptable Range: 0.030 to 0.090 mg/L Tested: 0.09 mg/L (GOOD) Copper (Cu++) Natural Seawater Value: 0.030 mg/L Acceptable Range: 0.000 to 0.030 mg/L Tested: 0.02 mg/L (GOOD) Alkalinity (meq/L) Natural Seawater Value: 2.5 meq/L Acceptable Range: 2.5 to 5.0 meq/L Tested: 6.42 meq/L (HIGH)
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~Jason |
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#50
11/22/2007, 11:54 AM
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Hey guys, what do you think about this.
First awt results Silica .3 (good) Second awt results Silica 2.7 (high) Is that much of a jump really possible? A water change was done from the same 150 gallon mixing tank the day before each sample was sent, and the only other things added were a teaspoon and a half of borax, some K, Mag and Dow after the first test. RR
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