Stand Center Brace Prohibiting Sump/Fuge Installation

[chriscobb]

I don't see why there would be any issues with taking the brace out temp to remove and install new sump....as stated earlier, bracing the center while it's out would be perfectly fine.....If you look at alot of the premade stands they aren't much thicker than 3/4" with no bracing.....And yes the weight of a glass tank are distributed on the outer edges, and no foam shouldn't and won't affect the bottom of a glass tank.....the foam is put in place to take up and minor deficiencies in the leveliness of the stand

[rgulrich]

Hmm. Actually, according to the engineer at All Glass that I spoke with, the plastic aquarium frame is designed to take up the minor (very minor) deficiencies in the stand. You're right, most of the stands support only the edges, and in my AGA 180's case, not even all the way around, only both ends and the back center (front off center).

The sytrofoam approach is another one of those Hatfield and McCoy type issues in aquaria, and has been around since hobbyists have been trying to find an easy way to level their tanks or compensate for that bad saw cut, measurement, or weld; heck, my 225 has styro under it (I didn't have the guts to try and peel it off after moving up to MD), and it's been around since '88 or '89 and broken down and moved over five times.

So, I guess its a matter of whether one likes to play by warranty rules or not, or whether one really wants to make their head hurt and delve into the physics of the redistribution of mass with regards to this use. I'd rather spend my few remaining brain cells on keeping the critters alive and well.

And honestly, in jest, a simple test of the physics is to drive a nail through a board so 1/2" is exposed. Flip the board over, and place a 1/2" thick piece of styrofoam on the board, covering the nail. Now sit on it, ensuring one cheek or the other is directly over the nail. Report results. Did the styrofoam adequately compensate for the irregularities of force applied by the cheek? Will it continue to with time? I certainly can't be the judge; I leave that to the guys that build the tanks and stands for a living.

OP, perhaps you could avoid the argument and ensuing headache and just build a split sump, and insert the two pieces separately. It does give rise to a whole series of possibilities, and (of course) a whole new series of challenges to contend with - but that's part of the fun of the hobby.

And I apologize for temporarily hijacking your thread, OP; its a pretty quiet night around the house tonight, and I'm fretting about my chiller failing night before last (eagerly awaiting arrival of replacement).

Cheers,
Ray

[DarG]

I agree with Doe. Personally, that is the only way that I would even think about attempting to remove the vertical center brace if I was going to attempt it with a full aquarium. Buy hey, maybe I'm just a touch too anal

[DarG]

Originally posted by rgulrich
Hmm. Actually, according to the engineer at All Glass that I spoke with, the plastic aquarium frame is designed to take up the minor (very minor) deficiencies in the stand. You're right, most of the stands support only the edges, and in my AGA 180's case, not even all the way around, only both ends and the back center (front off center).

The sytrofoam approach is another one of those Hatfield and McCoy type issues in aquaria, and has been around since hobbyists have been trying to find an easy way to level their tanks or compensate for that bad saw cut, measurement, or weld; heck, my 225 has styro under it (I didn't have the guts to try and peel it off after moving up to MD), and it's been around since '88 or '89 and broken down and moved over five times.

So, I guess its a matter of whether one likes to play by warranty rules or not, or whether one really wants to make their head hurt and delve into the physics of the redistribution of mass with regards to this use. I'd rather spend my few remaining brain cells on keeping the critters alive and well.

And honestly, in jest, a simple test of the physics is to drive a nail through a board so 1/2" is exposed. Flip the board over, and place a 1/2" thick piece of styrofoam on the board, covering the nail. Now sit on it, ensuring one cheek or the other is directly over the nail. Report results. Did the styrofoam adequately compensate for the irregularities of force applied by the cheek? Will it continue to with time? I certainly can't be the judge; I leave that to the guys that build the tanks and stands for a living.

OP, perhaps you could avoid the argument and ensuing headache and just build a split sump, and insert the two pieces separately. It does give rise to a whole series of possibilities, and (of course) a whole new series of challenges to contend with - but that's part of the fun of the hobby.

And I apologize for temporarily hijacking your thread, OP; its a pretty quiet night around the house tonight, and I'm fretting about my chiller failing night before last (eagerly awaiting arrival of replacement).

Cheers,
Ray

I'm not sure the nail in the *** is a good analogy. The styrofoam isnt completely compressed when I remove a tank. And I dont use it for any compensation in leveling per se. More so to maybe cushion any areas where two studs meet in case they may not be completely 100% even or may become slightly uneven over time. That's been my thinking anyway. Never had a warranty issue because of it and if I did have a warranty issue, I'd consider it being an excuse for and by the aquarium manufacturer to not cover it. I heard they wont cover it anyway. And judging from the crappy silicone jobs, unevenly cut glass, beveled glass where it should be straight and incorrect bevel angles where bevels are needed, horridly assembled seams and just all around shoddy craftsmanship of most (literally most) of the AGA (still says AGA on the tanks anyway) aquariums I have seen over the past little while at the LFS's, it's definitely NOT going to be styrofoam that causes the disasters.

[crossi92]

I have a 90g aga with the exact same stand and can slide a 20L in and out with ease, and yours is deeper. Are the door openings a different size for the 120? You would think it would be bigger opening.

[Salamander]

No worries. All good discussions just the same.

I may try to a temp (or perm) brace but maybe one that goes above and around both doors in an inverted horseshoe.

I've thought of drilling and connecting tanks but they'd have to be custom made acrylic. I have two tanks in now connected by an overflow but they're just not the right size/shape.

Crossi92. I could not get a 20 L in there. It was close and I really tried, but it just wasn't gonna work. The openings on the front are 15.2" wide X 21" tall.

I'd really like to be able to fit something at least like a 40g breeder underneath.

Don't worry about being anal DarG. That's why I''m still here fretting over this whole dilema.

Thanks again everyone for your responses and advice!

[sjm817]

Take a look at this ER skimmer thread. Look at the post by babogart. Notice anything?

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...2#post11199162

[chriscobb]

Again I don't think the engineer at AGA is correct.....The trim isn't there for that purpose....I'd actually try talking to several tank builders before believing that line, but anyway.....if that's the true case why don't all the DIYer glass tanks have the plastic trim?? The foam will hardly compress at all......I've done it with a 240 full very little and not noticeable compression at all.

[rgulrich]

As I stated at the outset, Hatfields and McCoys. And I think I also stated I have them both ways in the house, even though addition of a strip of foam under both ends and the middle of the newer 180 really doesn't appeal to me all that much.

My glass 370 liter I had built in Athens (Greece, not Georgia) in the early '80s didn't have a plastic frame, it did have a steel stand, and the builder included a one sheet of styrofoam under the aquarium, taped all the way around with a decorative black vinyl tape. It was also a Euro-braced aquarium, but again, all glass (the acrylics were way too soft back then and seemed to scratch if walked by). I'm sorry to say, the foam density (drum roll for physics entry onto the stage) was light (it was a "soft" styrofoam), and it did indeed compress, albeit only about 1/4". I gave that aquarium away to friend in 2000, with a denser foam underneath I picked up at Home Depot.

My Oceanic 225 show (nominal; actual about 210) circa 88 I picked up in Tucson (when Roger Bull and Saltwater Solutions was the game in town) has an 18" glass strap across the middle top and Euro-bracing on the ends in addition to the plastic frame. As I stated above, I put foam underneath it. 1/2" inch foam, medium-to-high density. My luck with styrofoam not compressing seems to be pretty bad, because the glass frame has pretty much cut through it down to about 1/8" of an inch all the way around.

My 20 gallon long I have on a steel frame stand I placed medium to high density foam under like you state, to compensate for the irregularities in the stand. Unfortunately, the tank doesn't weigh enough full to compress the foam, so I can still slide a credit card under the entire one end. -sigh-

To address your query into why all DIY's don't use a plastic frame (not trim, a bit of a difference), you'd have to ask them; I simply don't know why they don't, or would, for that matter. I didn't use a plastic frame when I built them, either, I Euro-braced my acrylic and glass tanks, and didn't think about it back then. While they all worked the way I planned, I was never really good at it, and quit building acrylic and glass aquariums and sumps as a part of this hobby in the late 80's/early 90's when I started spending too much of my time in SWA. Bummer.

Nope, you don't have to listen to the folks that do it for a living. As a mechanic, I'm sure you have lots of folks that treat your informed and experienced advice the same way; I know it happens quite a bit and I get frustrated when people in my profession treat my perspective the same way. But how many engineers are you going to ask before you decide it might be a good idea to chuck your keys to that Pinto you love to drive in rush hour traffic? Or just pack another bag of marshmallows for the commute?

Heh! Again, OP, my profuse apologies for hijacking this thread. I really didn't mean to; just taking a break after weekly maintenance on the two big chunks of glass in the basement.

Have you been able to come up with a plan for your sump adventures? Have we managed to dissuade you from ever posting a question again? Heh! I think the only limits you'll run into are your tolerances for risk, low bank balances, and imagination. I would suggest using the last to develop as many solutions as possible, and then weigh those solutions against the other two as you deem necessary.

Cheers,
Ray

[crossi92]

Originally posted by crossi92
I have a 90g aga with the exact same stand and can slide a 20L in and out with ease, and yours is deeper. Are the door openings a different size for the 120? You would think it would be bigger opening.

Nevermind, I'm a dumba**. Mine just looks like it has the center brace but it's attached to and opens with the door. It's been sitting in storage since I bought it, don't room to set it up right now.

[Salamander]

Ray, At least I'm learning a little bit about the various opinions about foam. I heard it would void warranties and that was good enough for me. I figured that if it was best they'd require it. But that's not really a concern of mine now.

Originally posted by rgulrich
I think the only limits you'll run into are your tolerances for risk, low bank balances, and imagination. I would suggest using the last to develop as many solutions as possible, and then weigh those solutions against the other two as you deem necessary.

Good advice. I'm using my imagination but would rather learn from some one else's risk before I have to test my bank balance.

I think there must be others with this stand who have been in my shoes before.

[rgulrich]

Good approach. Sumps here run the gamut from Rubbermaid containers to custom build acrylic or glass. With a careful set of measurements a split-sump design isn't a bad option to pursue. The bulkhead connections have to handle the flow to keep things level; they have to be large, much like the surface skimmers', preferably larger. The compartments then function much like the separate compartments in a one piece sump, with the bulkheads between the two functioning as a spillway. This would give you the space for a skimmer compartment, return pump compartment, and space to tuck in a few Phosban reactors for carbon, polyfilters, and phosphate removers.
Just a thought.

Cheers, and tell AZ I still miss the night skies,
Ray

[Salamander]

Yeah I'm staying away from the rubbermaids. That's what split and got me in this mess in the first place. My old glass sump was so much better.

I kinda have the modular set up know with tanks connected by at HOT overflow. There's really not much that I can fit through the doors that is a good shape or size without going custom. I looked at some custom sumps and way too expensive for something I can do myself.

I guess next weekend I'll try and pull the center brace to put in a larger sump/fuge.

Wish me luck.

[sjm817]

Good Luck!

If you are nervous, maybe drain the tank down as much as possible to lighten it up some while you are doing the work.

[rgulrich]

Best of luck in your adventures! With both ends and the back supported you should be in pretty good shape.

Disaster prep 101: it might pay to have a few of those darn Rubbermaid containers and some fresh saltwater laying around...large enough to hold the rock and critters. Just a thought.

Cheers,
Ray

[DAN513]

I'm in exactly the same situation as you right now, I've got a custom built 70 on an AGA stand (black pine, 48x18) just like yours and found that my sump doesn't fit.

I'm now debating on weather to drain the tank and drop it in through the top or knock out the centre brace and slide it in then screw the brace back into place.

[Salamander]

DAN513...We'll see who figures it out first. I'm thinking of knocking out the center brace but putting in some extra bracing first. My stand is a little bigger at 24"deep, 26" tall and 48" long and I still can't get anything into it. It's gotta be harder with your 18" stand.