Try again: Is anybody running an algae scrubber as primary filter.

[Flatlander]

Hmmm, not stunting my growth yet. Who is that guy? I thought I knew most authors. Does Inland Aquatics not have good coral growth?

I dont know if they are better or worse than a skimmer based system. To early for me to tell. I am not one that has went skimmerless because of a distaste for my skimmer. I am still a skimmer believer & my Euroreef sits ready.

[LiquidShaneo]

FWIW, I've also read Anthony's Book of Coral Propagation and I am going to disagree w/ his assessment that algal scrubbers inhibit the growth of corals. I wish more authors would footnote their source for statements as I'd like to read the sources that they are citing. I'm not saying he's right and I'm not saying he's wrong. The literature could bear this out but until I see a couple of papers on growth inhibition, I'm going to remain skeptical.

Let's think here a minute: Inland Aquatics has been using algal turf scrubbers *exclusively* on *all* of their systems. I've seen their setup first hand and I saw some awesome corals there. Go ahead and use your ATS.

Shane

[DKKA]

Inland Aquatice: Sarco's as big as my daughter, and lots of huge and awesome SPS.

Growth inhibited? I think not. Even if this guy did provide references I wouldn't buy it.

[DKKA]

For that matter, I was in Michigan a couple weeks ago and made a trip to Tropicorium. Many of their tanks were supporting a lush growth of grape caulerpa and other macro algaes.
Obviously they aren't too concerned about stunted growth.
Dan

[AHAB]

Stunts growth?
Not in my tank!
I have over growth that I bring to the reef club meetings each month.

AHAB

[Mark]

This is too funny...

At the Ft. Lauderdal MACNA, Adey lectured how the presence of turf algae seems to increase calcification/growth in stony corals. I have the paper.

[Steve Tyree]

Gregt,

Let me clarify what the fertilizer addition was about. I am only adding fertilizer to the Zonal Test Systems right now to simulate what happens when external food sources are adding into the system. As was correctly pointed out in the previous thread phase
1 research systems had very little if no external food added. So I am adding food now to see how the cryptic filtration model functions with excess organic input. Its also to respond to the - Hey he adds no food criticism :> I dont know anyone else adding a garden fertilizer that smells like garden compost to their reefs :> I also use the fertilizer as supplemental food to cryptic zones that are standalone and not connected to an exposed zone. They need food to grow the extra sponges and squirts.

Steve Tyree

[Cnidae]

Tagging along on this one becuase I'm currently designing a unit to replace my skimmer.

[gregt]

Steve,

Thanks for the clarification, but in just about everything I've read about ATS, there has been some mention of fuel for the algae, whether it be fertilizer, iron, etc... It seems that the algae will go through cycles of growth and crash if not supplimented. Doesn't sound like much fun to manage, nor does it sound like an optimum environment for a reef tank. I just think it's much to much trouble than it's worth even if it weren't for the problems with SPS growth. I'll clean a skimmer over that headache any day.

[Flatlander]

Greg, That would be algae filters and not scrubbers, I assume.

[Frick-n-Frags]

gregt, this whole thing defies logic Seriously, I am going to only feed enough to keep the macros from crashing. What if all the phosphorus was gone but there was plenty of nitrates to be consumed, the algae may crash anyway. I want to avoid this. My idea of feeding however, is several grams per month, several orders of magnitude below what seems to be the norm for feeding. But hey, we are the fattest country in the world, so why not our reefs too right??????????????????????

We have to balance the in and out, and part of that may be inorganic fertilizer addition (never did I think I would ever say this, holy sh!t! but in the realm of nutrient poor water, who knows.....)

understand my goal in one sentence:
Make aquarium generate its own zooplankton/bacterio-plankton/*** ever the coral eats/ from algae etc grown in nutrient poor water to feed the corals without trashing the water. Doesn't that sound like a cool goal????

[gregt]

f-n-f,

That is a cool goal. Add a couple hundred thousand gallons of water and it might be attainable. I don't think it's remotely possible in a reef tank the proportions we are talking about.

For healthy growth, coral needs lots of light and lots of food. The best food is fresh food that is easy to catch (they are sessile after all). For me, the best way to accomplish these goals is to provide fresh food often and abundant to provide plenty of easy to catch nutrition. If you do this, you have a nutrient problem. In order to keep water quality under control, you also need heavy filtration. Heavier than an algae based system can provide (unless it is 10 times larger than the tank it supports).

[Bomber]

Well dang, I was doing just fine until Doug posted. Now I'm lost in the terminology again. Doug, what's the difference between a algae filter and a scrubber? Until now, I was thinking they were the same. Isn't a scrubber like a algae filter that moves around more?

Oh BTW, Steve try Dyna-Gro. It's local for you too.

Jerel

[LiquidShaneo]

Mark,

I couldn't convince you to email me that paper Adey presented on the calcification rate in his ATS based systems could I? My email is in my profile.

Bomber: an algae scrubber is the unit that Walter Adey patented where surging water is flowed over a mesh screen. On this screen very fine algal turfs grow and these turfs are scraped off every week or so. An algal filter would be like a refugium populated with macroalgae.

hth

Shane

[Frick-n-Frags]

gregt Have you read this whole thread? I told you I have lots of light and flow. Not sure what you mean "the best food is fresh food that they can catch?" As in fresh like it was zooplankton that just swam out of a clump of algae and got eaten, or fresh like you ground up a substitute diet soup that you put in before it spoiled. I'll stick with the zoos and bacteria food. Live just seems fresher than fresh ground.

Don't forget that I have been running this system similarly (ran skimmer, had less macros) for 8 years now, with minimal feeding and decent coral growth, so, in my little world, this is pretty normal. So, in your infinite wisdom, why is my stuff growing if I don't feed like you do and haven't for a really long time? Since xmas, I have only removed the skimmer and built up the algae populations otherwise everything is still the same.

Maybe once a month, I powder a pinch of flake food and make soup with some DT's and put some coral-accel into it. That isn't much.

I also have one other secret inorganic supply weapon: non RO-DI water which leaves all those very desireable hard water compounds (manganese, magnesium, calcium, and other light metals) which I'm sure help the algae.(don't worry, I got the assay from the water company before I did this)

I don't know what else to say except I have a very stable system and this last change is very minor. No nutrient sinks, no feeding pollution, no micro problems, plush macros of several types and no Caulerpa except a few meager scraps that barely hang on (C serrulata(sp))My NO3, PO4 have been zero for years now.

Maybe you are just shooting down my philosophy because you are trapped with an overfed, overfiltered system that you have to defend for some reason, or you can't conceive the possibility that there may be more than one way to do a reef, I don't know. I'm just looking for other people with algae scrubbers to see how they are doing, guys like Doug who are adding something of value to this thread by actually answering my questions.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Hey Doug, that was a question that I am curious about also: What is the difference between an algae scrubber and an algae filter. I was tending to use the terms interchangeably. I don't have a plate to scrape, but I can pull clumps out of the tank.

Can the whole system be an algae filter/scrubber or does it have to be in a certain place to be called an algae scrubber?

[scot]

How do you guys think a skimmerless, algae filtered (scrubbed or filtered) system will handle a spawning event or some other catastrophic type event? Does an algae filter remove the chemical warfare compounds produced to destroy or inhibit growth of neighboring corals? Does a skimmer?

[scot]

Are there any compounds left behind by an ATS that should be removed?

[gregt]

F-n-F,

You misunderstand my intent. I'm not attacking or defending. I'm just telling you what I don't like about this method. Being devils advocate so to speak.

As in fresh like it was zooplankton that just swam out of a clump of algae and got eaten

Couple problems with this. First, zooplankton are actually difficult for coral to catch. Second, they really aren't all that nutritious, it takes a lot more of them than it would a prepared diet. Third, the populations are extremely difficult to keep stable. They tend to reproduce like mad until they use all the available food and then crash, repeat....so you end up with lots of viable food at some times, and lots of dead, decaying matter at others.

So, in your infinite wisdom, why is my stuff growing if I don't feed like you do and haven't for a really long time?

Never claimed to have infinite wisdom, I'm just telling you what makes sense to me. I also never said that nothing else will work. Actually, I never even said that I do things that way myself, although that is what I aim for.

I also have one other secret inorganic supply weapon: non RO-DI water which leaves all those very desireable hard water compounds (manganese, magnesium, calcium, and other light metals) which I'm sure help the algae.(don't worry, I got the assay from the water company before I did this)

What happens when they change the water quality and don't tell you? It happens all the time. Sometimes for short periods, sometimes permanently. Probably won't be a problem, but it would worry me. Again, it seems like you are adding nutrients to fuel a filter thats purpose is to remove nutrients. Just sounds counter-intuitive to me.

I'm just looking for other people with algae scrubbers to see how they are doing, guys like Doug who are adding something of value to this thread by actually answering my questions.

I guess the only answers to your questions should be "Yes, it will work perfectly, and you will have no problems."

I think scot has raised some excellent questions. Please don't take what I have said, or his questions as combative. The purpose for my posts (and I presume scots as well) are to keep you thinking about the pros and cons, not to rain on your parade. I'm not trying to talk anybody out of anything, as you said, there are different ways of doing things.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Understood greg, and it does add to the width of the discussion. I wanted to do more reading than typing so I was getting a little frustrated. I was really just hoping for more "how it went or didn't go" stories about algae scrubbers rather than theories about why this won't work. Dendro wasn't happy with his for a reason,and plant toxins will haunt the back of my mind, nutrient starved crash may be imminent to think about. There are a lot of red flags up here and I wanted to hear all of those too, not just the happy stories, but things regarding algae. I can make this not work a slew of ways all by my ignorant self, that isn't the problem .
You guys just have to get off the heavy feeding thing, it ain't gonna happen in this setup.

But I really do appreciate the time y'all have put in. Anymore algae scrubber stories out there?

Greg, you'll like my new system at the new house I am starting. It is going to be heavily automated, DSB, auto water makeup (RO-DI because the water sucks at the new house unlike Lake Erie water where I am now)
The new setup will be tweaked specifically for maxxing coral growout. And I can still keep this present system going to explore my ecclectic theories.

So save your last laugh for when I am in the DSB newbie corner, lost, asking really low level questions (seriously, at that point I will be leaning heavily on all of you heavy feed/heavy filter and DSB folks for your experiences)

[Frick-n-Frags]

Gee, did I read this whole thread too? I see Shane has explained the diff between a scrubber and filter. I have an algae filter then.

[gregt]

Frick,

FWIW, I think heavy feed / heavy filter and DSB is a bad combination.

I have an algae filter then.

Hmmm, that really is different. That is the source of a lot of my confusion on the thread.

[Frick-n-Frags]

(yup here we go already,)

[Bomber]

ROTFL you guys are too much

OK, I think I've got it now.
A algae filter uses algae that you harvest to remove things from the water.
A algae scrubber uses algae that you harvest to remove things from the water.
One is just more mechanical than the other. j/k LOL

Seriously, I got the jest of it!

First, zooplankton are actually difficult for coral to catch.

True

Second, they really aren't all that nutritious

True

Third, the populations are extremely difficult to keep stable.

True

How do you guys think a skimmerless, algae filtered (scrubbed or filtered) system will handle a spawning event or some other catastrophic type event?

Bomb! It's even hard to handle with everything online.

[Flatlander]

Thanks Shane. Thats about it in a nutshell.

Jerel, Yes, both use algae. Yes, both are algae filters. Yes, both methods use the harvest of algae.
But, there is a difference between a sump full of sand & calerpa and a scrubber screen. The flow is different, the types of algae is different, the method of harvest is different, but I suppose they are both algae filters.

Here is one difference. I was running a sump with sandbed & calerpa. The crap went sexual on me & turned my tank into a green pea soup. That cant happen to my scrubber.

Scot, I can try answer from my experience only. First I always have & still do, run carbon. So I see nothing being added from my scrubber yet.

As for its ability to handle a major event, I am with Jerel on this one. What can? Several methods are needed, including large water changes. From my limited scrubber experience & long time skimmer experience, the scrubber is removing as much or more than my skimmer.

How many tanks have you guys seen with algae problems, that are skimmer based? Lots, correct? So what makes a skimmer such a fool proof method? I had a very seasoned tank and years of experience. I still had some algae growth with my system. So I figure what the hey.

I am coming from a different view here though. I, unlike some skimmerless aquarists, still believe in skimmers & their use. Like I said mine sits ready. Perhaps as mentioned earlier, why limit yourself to a single way. Thats likely the method I will follow. Heck, my skimmer only uses 55 watts and the Euroreef is fool proof to look after. When on vacation I can just shut it down & let the scrubber do the work.

I also agree with Greg on the ease of using a skimmer versus my scrubber. Although regular dumping of the skimmer cup is not required with the scrubber, the care of both is about the same. Look at the pics of behind my tank. How much room does my scrubber take up. Granted, if my tank was a normal shape & my scrubber was not a smashed up mess, it could sit on the tank in its designed fashion.

I have used everything since my undergravels & canisters in the early 80,s so I am open to any form of filtration.

FWIW, I cant justifiy a direct comparision between my tank now & before, as I have removed the sandbed. This could be having an effect on the tank one way or the other, also.