Is this ich and how can I help him?

[Buk_A_neer]

Lee & Terry ... thanks very much for your input so far ...

Lee ... unfortunately I lost my CBB this morning ... might have been the stress of moving tanks but I have to focus on the living so I have a couple more questions if you dont mind ...

as to the sponge ... I have a sponge on the end of my Mag18 that is driving the Beckett skimmer ... it should have nitrifying bacteria in it right ? ... I put it in the aquaclear this morning and did a 5 gallon waterchange

Terry ... as to cupramine ( which I have dosed as per the directions ) ... how can I test for the amount that is in solution in the tank ( picking up a copper test kit today ... any suggestions as to brand ? ) as you say higher concentrations are required for it to be effective

Thanks to you both for your input

Cheers

Steve

[Newflee]

Rasta, That sponge will help. Keep feeding to a minimum and make sure all uneaten food is removed. This is an easy task as long as you use a bare glass bottom. If you need to resort to daily water changes you might want to experiment with the amount that you plan to replace daily. Try bringing that amount up to the same copper level as you are treating with and record the amount of copper needed. That way you can pre mix the copper/ water change before you do it. IMO you want to get a salifert or Seachem test kit. The nice thing about the seachem if I am correct is that you can do multiple tests at one time that will be usefull if you are experimenting as described earlier. In any event you'll need to test at least every other day (perhapse more if you do daily water changes)and therefore will need to do 20-30 tests. Look for a kit that will accomodate that. Don't bother getting a Hach test or anything fancy. The price is the only fancy thing about them. I use Hach but I also use a colorimeter which has a pricetag that would blow your mind.

Good luck and I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Hopefully you can save the others.
Lee

[TerryB]

Hi Lee,
Thanks for responding to me! I hope that you don’t mind my reply here rather than by email because I thought some others might benefit or enjoy reading our exchange. I love to get the opportunity to talk with someone with your experience about diseases and general fish health management. I am going to quote some of what you said so I can follow with a reply point by point.

“I agree that hyposalinity will work on C. Irritans a lot of the time but it is my belief that it cannot 'cure" a tank or fish of the disease. There has been much evidence that the critter in its other less visible stages of life can live in near fresh water.�

Lee I would be interested to know where I can find this evidence. Could you possibly be confusing Cryptocaryon with Amlyoodinium here? Cryptocaryon irritans cannot excyst or hatch from the tomont stage at 16ppt salinity or below. This effectively interrupts the life cycle of this parasite. I use a level of 14ppt salinity for therapy (approximately a specific gravity of 1.009). Treatment lasts a minimum of three weeks. Check the pH and alk daily and buffer as needed. It is true that Amyloodinium can survive in as little as 3ppt salinity but I do not believe the same can be said of Cryptocaryon (ich). What salinity (not specific gravity) do you have experience using with Cryptocaryon?

“Well, one of the mechanisms by which hyposalinity appears to work is the rapid lowering of salinity. Since we use only RO water (1200 gal / day) we cannot lower nearly quickly enough.�

Actually, I do not encourage dropping the salinity quickly at all. I advise people to drop the salinity to the therapy level over two or three days. Hyposalinity works by interrupting the life cycle of ich at the tomont stage. It does not kill attached parasites. They have to continue to mature and fall off of the fish. At this point the tomonts cannot hatch and the parasite dies out.

“We have recently introduced C. Irritans to the display for the first time in 4 years despite or quarantine proceedures and treatment. How this happened I cannot explain other than it may have been passed from our larval rearing and rotifer cultures that are contained within the same building and not treated.�

I cannot say how you may have introduced ich into your display but there are several ways that it can be imported. The most obvious and frequent cause is bringing in infected fish. Ich can be brought in in seawater but you would have to use the water within 24 hours of taking it from the sea. It can be brought in with some live foods but the time frame would also be very short. Tomonts can attach to any hard surface including rocks, sand, glass, shells and equipment so it is possible to bring an infection in this way. It can be as simple as moving a powerhead from an infected quarantine into the display. BTW, sharks do not tolerate hypo salinity well.

“Using fresh garlic very heavily we have C. Irritans visibly taken care of. Unfortunately we will have to live with the fact that it still lives in the tank and must be controlled.�

I also see a recurrence of symptoms frequently when garlic is used to treat ich. I think it makes a better preventative than a cure. I just don’t think it works well enough for a full-blown infection. Of course, if I had a mild infection in my reef I would try it. I don’t see it working for Amyloodinium either.
Chloroquine diphosphate (or phosphate) is used at 40mg/gal as a ten day treatment. Dose ONLY on the first day of treatment. It does not kill tomonts, but it kills dinospores immediately upon hatching. Relatively non-toxic to fish (malaria drug), but it cannot be used in the presence of inverts, micro or macro algae. It gives some relief almost immediately (within hours) whereas copper actually makes things worse (hyper production of mucus) before it makes them better. This is one reason that the survival rate of fish infected with Amyloodinium and treated with copper is low.

“I cannot imagine that any one copper treatment is safer to use than any other. The difference between formulas is really just in the agents that are used to keep it in solution.�

I can’t speak for Seachem but they do claim that their product is unique. In my experience I would have to agree with them. I would never use anything else in a copper based medication. Then again, I don't have much use for copper anymore.

You asked for more information on beta glucan. Do you have access to scientific journals? You can find some info about using beta glucan for both human and veterinary medicine on the internet, but you may not find enough specifically about aquaculture. I can suggest some scientific literature. I will just give you a broad generalization here. It is a non-specific immune system stimulant. It has been shown to help fight viral, fungal, bacterial, parasitic and even against cancer and other abnormal growths. People are using it to lower their cholesterol. It works especially well in conjunction with other therapies such as antibiotic and enhances the effectiveness of vaccines (formalin killed antigens). I know this makes it sound like a cure all, but what it really does is make the immune system function better. It increases the size, activity and efficiency of white blood cells among other things. There is a huge amount of information available and it is really not something new at all. I have known about beta glucan for years and wondered in amazement as to why the general public is unaware of it. I guess there must not be a lot of money in selling it.

You stated as to HLLE:
“My feelings are that many factors are involved including stress, diet and other suspected routes such as stray voltage. This topic really begs for a large scale University study, however unless we can somehow convince the powers that be that it is important, it will not likely happen.�

I would agree that many factors seem to be involved. Its not likely that such a study is forthcoming since HLLE is not important in fish farming. I just finished a 4,700 word report (three articles) on my hypothesis of HLLE. I expect to hear back something this week about publishing it.


“I have seen no evidence of copper inducing HLLE in tangs in hundreds of specimens of species ranging from Sohal to Vlamingi. Yes it is true that copper is a"poison" to the specimen, but at proper levels it is used like chemotherapy is on human cancer. I don't recomend that fish only tanks be maintained at theraputic copper levels (>.15) for any more time than it takes to treat the disease (40 days). This is done by some but is surely hard on the specimens.�

It is difficult to document and prove the cause of HLLE since there are so many factors involved but I have seen a correlation between the use of copper and the incidences of HLLE, particularly in tangs.

I am familiar with what Horge wrote and have discussed it with him in detail. He doesn’t even suggest that garlic is a cure for ich. He actually just suggests the mechanisms for how and why it may work. I spoke several times over the phone with Kelli Jedlicki a couple of years ago. She sort of helped to popularize the use of garlic for treating ich a few years ago at one of the conferences. She told me that she believes it is a better preventative than a cure and uses copper and/or hyposalinity to treat a full-blown infection.

I would like to know where you are in Canada. Do you ever go to the Seattle area?
Best wishes,
Terry B

[TerryB]

It would be a shame if this thread went unnoticed just when it is starting to talk about information that most people have not read before. Maybe this will catch Newflee's attention. I for one would like to see more from them.
Terry B

[djfrankie]

I'm paying attention...

[Rhianna McDougal]

Thanks Lee and Terry for all the information that you both have provided regarding curing Ick from a display (main) tank. Our Heniochus showed signs of ick just this past week (rather quickly I might add as he was feeding well up til this point and the only change that we had was adding a Volitan Lion) and was not looking good. We treated with Greenex--based upon suggestion by our LFS, because we have a FOWLR and I explained the inventory of the tank to them and the Greenex is what they suggested. Our lion had eaten well the previous feeding, after we treated with the first dose of Greenex, it would not eat at the next feeding (we feed every other day rosey reds and krill), and again the following feeding. It was listless, and not looking good. It died 3 days after treatment and had shown negative signs the following day after first treatment. We stopped the treatment immediately (after seeing the lion's deteriating condition), put in charcoal filter, and did a 10% water change for the 125 gal. tank--we will do 2 more changes within the following week). The Heni's eyes are cloudy but my husband seems to think they are looking a little better. His banner (dorsal fin), is completely disintegrated and part of his pectoral fins are gone. Is this because of the Greenex or due to the disease?
Our yellow polyps are not looking good either and was wondering if this is due to the Greenex? Our condy anemones (2) have been less active as well. We are in the process of putting up a hospital tank (was waiting to get one established when all this happened) and will do it this week. I've learned a tremenduous amount from your posts and I wanted to thank you both because you've given us a few ideas on how we should handle this situation. First and foremost we're putting up our hospital tank, we'll complete our water changes this week, but will the hyposallinity therapy and the garlic feedings help our current fish, below is our current inventory:

1 Clarkii clown, 1 heniochus, 1 saddle-back puffer, 1 snowflake eel, and 1 lawnmower blenny. The rest of the inhabitants are the clean-up crew such as hermit crabs, snails, brittle-starfish, coral-banded shrimp and our corals, such as leather, button polyps, yellow zoanthus, green and frilly mushrooms, gorgonian, and we also have 2 large feather dusters and some baby ones.

How can we save our tank?

Thanks for your help or anybodies input on this situation.



Rhianna

[TerryB]

You cannot use hypo with inverts or live rock. Leave the display fshless for a minimum of thirty days. Move the fish to another tank for treatment. Did the fish have white spots on them that look like salt sprinkled on them? Are you sure that they have ich or could it be something else? Ich often causes a secondary bacterial infection which can lead to finrot. You may have to use an antibiotic such as Maracyn-Two or Nitrofurazone (Furacyn) along with hypo. The greenex is toxic to many fish and inverts. Click on the search button here and look up hyposalinity.
Terry B

[stresco]

I've been following this ( exellent) thread for a while now and i feel i need to jump in. That is, i need help. There is so much info here, it can be overwhelming. I noticed ick on my Purple Tang and Harliquin Tuskfish two weeks ago and started feeding garlic soked food. They havent shown any implovemnet yet, so have just added them to a 10 gal hospital tank and i will be using Cupramine to treat the little buggers. The question is this, i have a morey eel in my display tank as well as LR, Stars, Polyps, and various inverts. He is not showing any signs of ick, and i just fed him, so i know he is eating. Do i need to remove him from my display tank as well during the quarentine period of the other 2 fish? Can i treat my display tank with anything? I have no other fish in the tank with him. Should i be soaking his food with garlic as well? What do you think?

[nick18tjetta]

Ok, i also need help. I just added a clown tang to my tank, that came from my lfs's display reef tank. The fish has been eating well and is healthy, but shortly after adding it to my tank it has developed ich. I am assuming it is just from the stress of the move. I mixed fresh garlic with an emerald entree cube today and it ate a good bit of it, i also crushed a clove of garlic and put it in a coffe filter, and placed it in a high flow area. Should i take the fish out a treat it with copper anyway, or should i wait it out. I really don't want to take my tang out because i believe the move would only stress him more and i really don't want to add any more stress to his life. I want to say that this fish is fat and eats well. Oh yeah, the tank is a 125 gallon full blown reef.

Thanks

Nick

[billsreef]

Foods soaked in garlic oil might work in this case as it's a light infection. Not sure placing a crushed clove in the tank will do anything more than making the tank smell like an Italian kitchen though

[nick18tjetta]

One of my friends does it all of the time and he has never had ich, He read somewhere that the oil in the garlic masks the smell of the fish and the toment, torment whatever cysts can't find the fish. I don't know if it does anything but it can't hurt. I'm use to an italian kitchen, of course i am Italian. The ick cleared up, so i hope its going to be ok, i feed garlic foods for awhile and hope it doesn't come back next week.......

Nick

[maroun.c]

very informative thread indeed. i would just like to describe my experience with copper. first of all i had lots of new fish infected due to the fact that there is only one lfs that gets marine fish here and they only get fish once every 1-2 months and all the fish they get are sold out in 2-3 days. i used to treat all fish with copper in a Q tank. my first problem was with Q tank stability it seemed as if copper in repetitive doses affected my bacteria. (My q tank runs continuously with 1 wet dry milleneum filter and another aquaclear and a DIY skimmer which i turn off while trating) my true problem and this is one that i cannot truly blame the copper for however i feel it is the cause and its fish blindness. the most evident occurence was with a pigmy angel it was in the q tank with a clown and both were in there for treatment of ich and after the 2nd dose of copper i noticed my angel went blind ans started bumping into things a water change and stopping the copper and the angel regained its vision. also 2 firefish in the Q tank when i was keeping the tank fishless and the Q tank had residual traces of copper from a recent treatment and both firefish went blind. last one my hyppo tang which i've had since around 1 yr and who had been quarantined and treated mostly with copper went blind for no apparent reason he lived for around 6 months in the Q tank and i used to take him out to a bowl and put food for him to find and a while before he died he started to learn the areas of the Q tnak with no flow and he used to go to the right spot whenever he smelled food. i never put him back to the main tank and he remained in the q tank which had residual copper.
i can't say fo sure that copper was the cause however after stopping using copper and going with hyposalinity i had great results and i never had any of those unexplained blindness.
also one thing i should mention is that it is relatively difficult especially for newcommers to this hobby to monitor copper effectively and monitoring salinity is more easy eventhough you have to pay attention to ph levels, i did many hyposalinity treatments and never did i end with a ph variation. and even without a refaractometer i had good results (not saying that a refractometer is not necessary but i can't find one here and no company would ship till here)
i'll end by saying that the best treatment is prevention and i really believe that a healthy tank with good water conditions, high quality feedings... is the best cure and many fish who show one spot or a few spots of ich sometimes get cured by themselves. also LFS should be resposible enough to stop selling unquarantined fish. i got 9 bicolour angels and all of them died form ich and i was advised to stop trying this beautiful fish because of its low survival rate. so i did till one day where one bicolour reamined at the lfs for a month so i took it and now it is thriving in my tank and never showed any sign of disease.

[ivon1955]

Mr Bojangles,

Did you just buy garlic from the local grociery store, minced garlic work fine? I just noticed white spots on my Desjardin Tang and I want to kick it early, did this really work or should I buy something like "Kick Ich" from my LFS. What is the best route, I don't have enough money to start up a refugium tank for him, so I need to act fast. The tang is eating fine and not rubbing himself on rock or anything and none of my other fish are showing signs of this so whew, hopefully I will catch it early enough. Thanks!!!

[DgenR8]

I went with garlic gel tabs. Nothing in them but garlic extract, easy to stick a pin into and squeeze the contents out onto the food.
I also use Selcon to help keep the fish strong, and above all, identify, and remove the source of the stress.

[Zoom]

Kent marine makes RX.P parasite Treatment that is triple action treatment for salt water ick.
I try it and it works but you have to read all the directions very carefully.
It is good to use it before the ick gets out of control.
Here is the link.
http://www.kentmarine.com/html/rxp.html

[Newflee]

I never tried the Kent product, but I can guarantee you that no one product is effective.
My personal preferences are copper sulphate and praziquantel. Takes care of almost everything. A quarantine is a must. Any company that claims to rid a reef tank with fish of parasites is just plain wrong, unless they also tell you that your inverts will be killed too.

lee

[Zoom]

Originally posted by Newflee
I never tried the Kent product, but I can guarantee you that no one product is effective.
My personal preferences are copper sulphate and praziquantel. Takes care of almost everything. A quarantine is a must. Any company that claims to rid a reef tank with fish of parasites is just plain wrong, unless they also tell you that your inverts will be killed too.

lee

YOU NEVER TRIED but you quaranteed is not working.

[Newflee]

I've done this a long time. If I'm wrong then too bad for me I guess. Good luck to you.


Lee

[Zoom]

Originally posted by Newflee
I've done this a long time. If I'm wrong then too bad for me I guess. Good luck to you.


Lee

Lee,
Kent marine company have a good repetition if it was a snake oil they will not sell it
If you will read the link above you will agreed they tell you this is very dangerous treatment it is not to pour and forget treatment you have to work on it and have some experience in the reef keeping to be successful with this treatment.
Try it you be surprise like i was.

[Newflee]

Well all I can say is good luck. The biggest task of all marine fish keepers is protection from and prevention of paristes. If Kent Marine has solved the problem, then we'll have nothing to talk about. LOL




Lee

[Zoom]

Originally posted by Newflee
Well all I can say is good luck. The biggest task of all marine fish keepers is protection from and prevention of paristes. If Kent Marine has solved the problem, then we'll have nothing to talk about. LOL




Lee

I don't think i have anything to talk about with you.
You are correct and i'm wrong LOL.

[TerryB]

I don't think there is anyone on the internet that talks to more people about fish disease than me. I can tell you that none of the so-called reef safe medications for ich, including RX-P, work with any consistency. Just check the Reef Central disease forum and you will find that they do not recommend RX-P.
Terry B

[J.Unit]

About garlic, I want to use it as a preventative.

I minced a little garlic and put it in a small souffle (bowl) and added a little saltwater. I guess I sorta made a solution. Now I am taking a folded piece of nori and placing it into the "solution" with another souffle bowl on top of it to hold it down.

1) How long should I soak nori?

2) Will my method work?

Thanks peepo.

[Newflee]

your method might work but there is a better way to do it.
First you must understand that the active compound in garlic is only released upon injuring or cutting the clove. The compound is presumably used as a chemical defence much as sap is used by some trees. What this means is that the smaller you can chop the garlic and the more surface area you can open up the better for the transfer of the compound.
I find a lot of fish quite enjoy eating the chopped garlic directly, but I do not overfeed my fish. Some fish refuse anything but premium frozen foods if they are spoiled.
IMO if your fish will not eat the garlic itself, then you are better off just rubbing the freshly chopped garlic on the Nori just before feeding. You could also try rubbing and compressing the garlic onto the nori. I feel that adding saltwater into the mixing equation is of no benefit and problably dilutes the active compound. In the same sense I don't feel that the garlic treated nori will be of any value after a few minutes of being placed in the tank if uneaten.

[J.Unit]

Hmm, thanks New. I got it, so I should just look for garlic oil? Or what...

Another question. I just did all of this in the past 15 minutes. I put the Nori on the vegi-clip and the Tang was kind of scared of it at first. He's pretty brave so he is now swimming about, but how long will it take before he starts eating the nori?

While hanging the nori, a small little tiny piece blew off in the current. It floated by the Tang and he chomped it down. Will it only be a matter of time before he decides to eat at the foriegn brown mass known as nori?