my house reef (211 g.)

[Reefflections]

That's great to hear that.That's the way Zeo started here.It took somebody,to make the connection with the product.And everything else is history.Being I used Zeo.I think the most important with Prodibio as it being safe.Where there is no fallout from their additives.It would give Zeo,a run for their money.A safer,cheaper product would go a long way.
What's a little strange here,where Iwan is really using both products.Maybe Zeo additives are a little stronger,or Prodibio doesn't have all of them?Yes the CV by Zeo is fairly new additive.So that could be the reason here for that one.

[Lights Are Bright]

If you use Prodibio, can you still run UV or ozone or will it kill the bacteria?

[jnarowe]

can we get back to the Vodka for a minute? Who is dosing their tank with vodka??? I never heard of that. Is that a joke?

[iwan]

Originally posted by Lights Are Bright
If you use Prodibio, can you still run UV or ozone or will it kill the bacteria?

I would use no ozone and no UV.
Both methods kill bacteria.
We also destroy parts of the useful populations through this.

[iwan]

Originally posted by jnarowe
can we get back to the Vodka for a minute? Who is dosing their tank with vodka??? I never heard of that. Is that a joke?

Vodka is a carbon source.
The bacteria's increases if you dose Vodka in the aquarium.
However, it is the problem that the increase isn't selective.
Populations increase at random.
With Prodibio you give selected bacteria population's and increase these!
This is the great difference.

[TryTheChi]

I have been asked via PM if I could do a summary of Iwan's methods by pulling together what we have learned from this thread so far. Clearly his tank is such an inspiration to us. So what follows is my understanding of his approach, a step by step guide for english speakers on how much of what is needed, reference to manufacturers recommendations and a little from my own experience.

The additives Iwan is using are in two categories:

Probiotic (biotechnology based on bacterial interactions with disovled componds) method - (and an alternative approach to the Zeo Basic 4):

1. Prodibio Bio Digest - Bacteria strains to take No3 and PO4 to undetectable levels; - Dosed every 2 weeks - 1 ampule per 1000lts;

2. Prodibio Bio TIPM (or Trace) - bacteria food. Dosed every 2 weeks - 1 ampule per 200ltrs;

3. Zeo Start 2: Carbon bacteria food: Dosed daily 1ml per 100ltrs. (One of the Zeo basic 4);

Coral food and trace elements:

4. Prodibio Reef Booster - Omega 3, Amino Acids, and trace elements. Dosed weekly at 1 ampule per 400ltrs;

5. Zeo Coral Vitaliser (CV)- SPS food dosed daily after lights out 1-3 drops per 100l (depending on stocking levels);

6. Zeo Amino Acid High Concentrat (AAHC): Dosed daily after lights out 1-3 drops per 1 100 ltrs - Coral growth and coloration enhancer;

7. Zeo Potassium Iodine Flouride (PIF) : Dosed twise a week anytime at 1 drop per 100ltrs;

Prodibio is not available in the UK or US (although Floridot is looking into being the US importer) and the cheapest I have found it is from a French supplier who ships to the UK and US:

http://www.theaquaticparadise.com/pr...45a7e294c5bb25

Zeo products are available in the UK and US from sponcers on the Zeo site.

When calculating how much you need of each - the following tips maybe helpfull.

1. 100lts = 25 USg
2. 3 drops from a Zeo pipette = 0.1 ml
3. Estimate net system water volume.

For example if your net water volume is 600ltrs (150 usg) the following amounts will be needed for 1 year 2 months supply based arround the 30 vials in the core product - Prodibio BioDigest:
(- Quater the amounts below if you want to trail the approach for 3 months.
- Double the amounts below if you are lucky enough to have a 1200ltr reef.
- Half the amounts below if you have a 1200ltr reefand want to trail it for 3 months.
- Etc etc)

1. BioDigests: 30 vials;
2. BioTIPM (or Bio Trace): 90 vials;
3. ZeoStart 2: 10 x 500ml bottles;

4. Prodibio Reef Booster: 60 vials (this is underdoing on a 600l - but seems OK so far on my reef);
5. Zeo CV: 100mls (Based on minimuml dosage of 1 drop per 100ltrs)(this product has a shelf life and should be kept in the fridge.);
6. Zeo AAHC: 100mls, as for CV;
7. Zeo PIF: 50 mls;

The above is what is required to follow Iwans dosage system and respectve manufactureres recommendations. In addition Iwan also uses live Phytoplancton (DT):

Other points that may help:

1. Bacteria Substrate: The probiotic approachs ( Prodibio and Zeo Basic 4) results in bio films that require substrates to attach themselves to. For Zeo Basic 4 it is the Zeolith rocks and LR, - in Iwans approach it is LR and 4 inch MSB in the tank (he has no sump). In my tank it is LR and MSB in the sump (tank is BB).;

2. Ozone and UV will kill the bacteria - and are incompatible with a probiotic method;

3. Regular water changes are used to replenish trace elements;

4.1 Calcium, Alkalinity and PH: In common with all other systems - CA/DKH/MG/PH need to be maintained at NSW levels - . I have found that Prodibio is effective at 10.2 dkh for those who are concerned about PH dips. Iwan and Zeo run thier DKH at 8.

4.2 Kalkwasser is not required, with the use of aragonite MSB and a CA reactor. As the tank matures and CA demand increases, a CA reactor will have to run at full pelt, be exchanged for a larger one or as Iwan does - use the balling method to supplement the CA reactor.

4.3 Given the strong acidification that will result from hyper active bacteria, I would recommend that a DSB or MSB of aragonite is used in the tank or sump to buffer the water and maintain PH at 8.1 just before lights go on (point of highest acidification in the daily cycle. My sump MSB base area is 20% of the tank base area and seems to work fine;


5. Protein skimming is always helpfull. I have found that taking the skimmer off for 3 weeks to test the effect on phyto and zoo plancton populations did not result in a rise of NO3 or PO4. I took off a super agressive detlec skimmer, but have since put on a more plancton friendly Tunze skimmer. NO3 and PO4 remain undetectable. Skimmate is lightening gradually the longer Prodio is used;

6. Algae refugium: IME the effect on algae refugium with Prodibio is similar to the reported effect with Zeo BAsic 4. During the first 4 weeks the chateo continued to grow well, then stagnated and at week 6 begab to die due to NO3 PO4 starvation - so keep an eye out for that.

7. Activated carbon: I have found that 24/7 use of activated carbon (rowacarbon) through a Tunze quick change filter (ie powered) has not resulted in STN or RTN. This is switched of for 30 mins after any dosage). However - I may not be experiencing the full effect of the coral food and tace element suppliments and will change carbon use to 24/7 passive use;

8. Fluidised Rowaphos: This media is at the very last stage in the sump - and the small amount that I fluidise has not been depleted. This may indicate that it is no longer needed. Iwan no longer uses it;

9 Lighting: There is no doubt in Germany that T5 lighting with individual parabolic reflectors alternating between actinic and white bulbs in a 50/50 ration is highly effective for SPS. Full side to side and front to back coverage is required. This will have a radiant heat effect and raise tank water temperatures. Running fans to cool T5 bulbs will control tank water temperature and increase T5 light output.

It allows coral placement across the full length and width of the tank to a depth of 80cm (depending on SPS species) from the tubes. Iwan changes his approx every 9 months - dannano (RC TOTM March 05 hasnt changes his in over 2 years). B Mohr described a slowing of SPS growth after 9 months.

10. SPS Coloration: None of the above can turn a genetically brown sps into any other colour. This approach will make the best of the color in the coral DNA.

11. Risks:

An attractive feature of the prodibio approach has been no observed risk of RTN due to rapid changes in clinical nitrogen cycle parameters.

I suggest you can be confident to use the Prodibio elements from day 1, along with Zeo CV and AAHC (these 2 start at 1 drop per 100lts per day and titrate the dope upwards in 2 weekly intervals)

There are contra indications with ZeoStart2 and PIF that are described in the Zeo Guide V1.01.

Finally - I hope this is a helpful sumarry of what I have learned to date - and many many thanks to Iwan for introducing the english speaking world to this approach, and I would be very grateful if Iwan would wish to add anything to help us along further.

HTH

Simon (trythechi)

[asnatlas]

Originally posted by jnarowe
can we get back to the Vodka for a minute? Who is dosing their tank with vodka??? I never heard of that. Is that a joke?

No it is not a joke...

Search Results

[asnatlas]

Originally posted by TryTheChi
I have been asked via PM if I could do a summarry of Iwan's methods by pulling together what we have learned from this thread so far. Clearly his tank is such an inspiration to us. So what follows is my understanding of his approach, a step by step guide for english speakers on how much of what is needed, and a little from my own experience.

Simon, Thank you very much for the summary...

[iwan]

Thank's for the summary Simon...Good work.

Iwan

[Tagareef]

Iwan & Simon,

Do you think it would be acceptable (safer) to start out with the Prodibio products initially, then after a number of weeks, slowly start to introduce the Zeovit products (If needed)? I guess a question along that same line: Do you think using the Prodibio products alone would give similar results?

I enjoy some complexities in this hobby, but when it comes to dosing supplements (water conditioners) I like to keep it simple. This is the major reason I am not doing Zeovit now. Also, I travel on occasion and not having to depend on someone else to do daily dosing of the Zeo products would be a plus. The fact that the dosing regime of the Prodibio products is based on weeks and not days was one of the major factors that interested me in this method.

Great Summary Simon!

Thanks,

Luis

[TryTheChi]

Originally posted by Tagareef
Iwan & Simon,

Do you think it would be acceptable (safer) to start out with the Prodibio products initially, then after a number of weeks, slowly start to introduce the Zeovit products (If needed)? I guess a question along that same line: Do you think using the Prodibio products alone would give similar results?


Luis

Thanks Luis

In my case I went with Prodi only for a month - then started phasing in the Zeo and finally just last week Start2.

Cheers

Simon

[ahchung]

Iwan, I am running 6 x 39W T5HO on my 45G tank with 3 x Giesenman Aquablue+ and 3 x ATI Blue+ using 5 parabolic reflectors (due to space issues). A few days ago I bought an acropora which showed a very nice fluorescent green color under 400W of a 20K MH. Unfortunately when I brought the acropora back to home and put it in the tank it only showed yellow color and no fluorescent green color at all.

Actually this problem applies to most of the acroporas in my tank. The LFS's here are running either pure 400W of 20K MH bulbs or 400W of 14K/20K MH bulbs plus VHO actinic bulbs.

Do you encounter this problem? How do you find the fluorescence effect of the T5HO bulbs?

[jnarowe]

TryTheChi Thank you. I needed that! (summary)

Geez, and I have been drinking all my Vodka and very careful not to spill it in the tank.

[Travis]

The problem with vodka is 2fold. First, it fuels all bacteria regardless of if it is good or bad. If you have a bacteria infection in your fish or corals, the vodka will only make it worse. Second, the bacterial strains in the tank eventually become monocultured as certain strains outcompete others. The end result being a bacterial population that is not as diversified.

Floridiot, thanks for checking into someone importing the Prodibio products into the US. One thing that is for sure, if this Prodibio turns out to be all it is cracked up to be, the first person to establish full importation rights for Prodibio will greatly benefit financially.

Iwan, can you explain why you also use Start2 to fuel bacteria growth when you are already using BIOTrace? Does the Start2 do something that the BIOTrace dosen't?

[jnarowe]

asnatlas yeah I checked those threads and it just doesn't look like a good idea to me. Seems a bit bizarre to introduce something that is a food as well as sanitizer. I mean, vodka kills bacteria right? sugar feeds it right? many people have chimed in about bad results as well.

[iwan]

Originally posted by ahchung
Iwan, I am running 6 x 39W T5HO on my 45G tank with 3 x Giesenman Aquablue+ and 3 x ATI Blue+ using 5 parabolic reflectors (due to space issues). A few days ago I bought an acropora which showed a very nice fluorescent green color under 400W of a 20K MH. Unfortunately when I brought the acropora back to home and put it in the tank it only showed yellow color and no fluorescent green color at all.

Actually this problem applies to most of the acroporas in my tank. The LFS's here are running either pure 400W of 20K MH bulbs or 400W of 14K/20K MH bulbs plus VHO actinic bulbs.

Do you encounter this problem? How do you find the fluorescence effect of the T5HO bulbs?

I don't have the problem with the flourescent colors.
On the contrary:
I just find the corals with fluorescent colors very impressiv under T5. How old are the bulbs?

[iwan]

Originally posted by TryTheChi
Thanks Luis

In my case I went with Prodi only for a month - then started phasing in the Zeo and finally just last week Start2.

Cheers

Simon

Yup!
Step by step is safer! The system needs time to adapt.
Small changes are gentler than great changes.

Iwan, can you explain why you also use Start2 to fuel bacteria growth when you are already using BIOTrace? Does the Start2 do something that the BIOTrace dosen't?

ZS2 makes "metallic" colors. You'll see this effect after a while. Some of the colors seems to become more clear.

[ps8411]

Iwan,

Thank you for introducing your tank and probiotic regement of growth and care..... I plan on following your prescritpion as close as possible to duplicate what you have achieved.

I have just set up two weeks ago a brand new 175g reef tank and the live rock is curing now...and I'm excitied to have come across this thread! The next step will be to purchase lighting (T5 vs. MH). We have alot of options here in the States with MH and T5 combination fixtures. However, we do not have a high-end T5 fixture like you have recently purchased from ATI (I believe that was the name in this thread).

- Do you or somebody that may perhpas be reading this thread know of how I can purchase a high-end T5 fixture (72") similiar as you have featured in this thread? (I really need to act quickly and get this lighting right the first time and I believe you have shown us the key!)

- I will be ready to place in my live Carib sand next week. What type do you use and how many inches deep do you run the substrate in your tank?

Thanks again for sharing your success with us!

PS8411

[Reefflections]

Simon
WOW,you did a lot of work,posting all of that GREAT JOB ! Because as we know a new product,there always a lot of question people will have.And when Iwan chimes in here,that a plus also.
Curt
Another bump for this great thread!

[ahchung]

Approximately 2 months.

Originally posted by iwan
I don't have the problem with the flourescent colors.
On the contrary:
I just find the corals with fluorescent colors very impressiv under T5. How old are the bulbs?

[jnarowe]

You guys will get a kick out of this...I just fired up one of my 1000W MH 20K lamps for a test and it was unbelievable! great coverage and doubles as a tanning booth!

I don't think you can get a tan from those silly T-5s...

[Bebo77]

1000 watts .. boy i bet your meter flies when you turn your lights on....

dwp loves you....

[iwan]

Originally posted by ps8411
Iwan,

Thank you for introducing your tank and probiotic regement of growth and care..... I plan on following your prescritpion as close as possible to duplicate what you have achieved.

I have just set up two weeks ago a brand new 175g reef tank and the live rock is curing now...and I'm excitied to have come across this thread! The next step will be to purchase lighting (T5 vs. MH). We have alot of options here in the States with MH and T5 combination fixtures. However, we do not have a high-end T5 fixture like you have recently purchased from ATI (I believe that was the name in this thread).

- Do you or somebody that may perhpas be reading this thread know of how I can purchase a high-end T5 fixture (72") similiar as you have featured in this thread? (I really need to act quickly and get this lighting right the first time and I believe you have shown us the key!)

- I will be ready to place in my live Carib sand next week. What type do you use and how many inches deep do you run the substrate in your tank?

Thanks again for sharing your success with us!

PS8411

Thanks!

I use the live sand from Nature's Ocean. I have a DSB in my tank. This runs with a hight of 5-6".

[Lights Are Bright]

Try the Chi,
How come if you have a BB tank, you have a DSB sump? Do you just have a BB tank for lots of flow?

[carib]

SIMON.How long it takes to get your shippment from French distributor?I place an order[snake oil] jan-27 and it still processing.Thanks.