Bermuda Rogue skimmer

[luke33]

I think 320bux should be max on spending on this guy. It will pull 708lph compared to 500lph from the mce 600 and much cheaper. I can't say if its better until i give it a month or so, but all indacations are pointing to yes. Even when i fed last night it didn't lose its head? Which was strange to me. You have to think right now i have over 900lph in it.......a das ex2 pulls 1000lph air. I think the reason this skimmer does so well is because of the design. Like most skimmers the air goes straight up or swirls around width wise. This skimmer takes all the air, trapps it in a chamber and makes it go around in circles from vertically. I think this enhances skimmer performance by dwell time. Its really quite impressive. If bermuda intended on the skimmer doing this is questionable, but it does so who cares.

[bbehring]

I just wish I had room on the back of my tank to put one of these guys in. My dang CL supply/return lines are in the way. So I'm stuck with the AM turboflotor HOT. Kinda dissapointing IMO.

[luke33]

Ok, here's 24hrs of skimmate. Here's what a real hot skimmer should produce. Over a cup of dry skimmate. I'm going to let it go one more day before i clean it out. Very impressive imo. And I will say imo THE BEST hot skimmer out there.

[bbehring]

dang! Looks sick luke!

[DarG]

I wouldnt exactly call that dry. The drier foam accumulation is common when the neck and cup gets dirty but the skimmate itself isnt exactly dry. But that Bermuda is doing a very good job anyway. I tried to add my 2 cents that the 3C was a great little skimmer and that I knew the Rogue would work well but these things just seemed to get so much resistance. Probably because of the Venturi.

Luke, do you remember in the old Bermuda thread with the one member who was so sure that the Venturi was only capable of drawing 3-5 SCFH ?

[luke33]

LOL, well there's really no such thing as dry skimmate cuz its all damp or wet. I've never pulled out dry dirt before but the neck is super clogged with "Dry" skimmate. For some reason people just don't like venturi skimmers. I will say that this skimmer only took a few days to break in. It pry would have started skimming in less than a day or two if i would have put it in my display tank. 3-5scfh is just silly as crap. This venturi on the rogue is probably capable of 50scfh. These skimmers are truly a set and forget type of skimmer. I love it.

[DarG]

Yep, my 3C never went through any type of break in. It started skimming well from day one. I'm using a DAS EX-2 now. It's not pulling any more air than the 3C did. With the way it's tuned each pump is pulling just under 5 LPM. My 3C was pulling over 10 LPM and kicking butt. The DAS body is probably 2 X the size of the 3C and it looks like it is 2X - 3X as milked out as the 3C with the same amount of air. So, the bubbles are definitely smaller with the DAS. But the 3C has nothing to be ashamed of even compared to the DAS. It was not that far behind. That will change when my Bio-load increases, the 3C is just a much smaller skimmer. But Bermuda has some great skimmers and they are a great alternative for somebody who doesnt want to go to a needlewheel skimmer and the reliance on a needlewheel pump/pumps continuing to work and doesnt want to have to deal with the larger pumps needed for Becketts to run right.
I kept my 3C for the time when one of my Aquabees takes a dump and Im waiting on a replacement. It will happen eventually.
In fact, I kept the Bermuda feed pump as my DAS feed pump. Just throttled way down. I'm not worried about the extra energy or heat, its only 90 watts wide open anyway. I left it so if I ever need to I can make a quick swicth back to the Bermuda. Couldnt as for a better back-up skimmer than the 3C if and when I need it.

[DarG]

Luke, I meant to ask. Couldnt you put the feed pump in the sump or run an external feed pump drawing from the sump to feed the Rogue? Do you have to use an in tank pump? I would think you could just route a hose from an external pump or insump pump to the rogue input.

[luke33]

Sure you could run it in the sump if you wanted to. As for using a pump from your sump for feeding the rogue, not sure. You'd have to turn the pump attachment from the rogue about 45degrees and i don't know if that would be a good idea or not. If your going to try that, why not just put it in your sump. But then again, it kind of defeats the purpose of a hot skimmer ; ) But sure you could. And I agree with you, when just running a smaller pump like the rio1100 or mag3, anything around the 300-400gph mark, the rogue's body is pretty bare with bubbles but it will skim pretty well. The body on mine is just as milky as a nw skimmer though. The bermuda's are just a different kind of skimmer. My NW skimmer in my sump is clogging up quite regular these days though, which is quite annoying. I don't look for the rogue to do that.

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by DarG
Luke, I meant to ask. Couldnt you put the feed pump in the sump or run an external feed pump drawing from the sump to feed the Rogue? Do you have to use an in tank pump? I would think you could just route a hose from an external pump or insump pump to the rogue input.

If you have a sump you can just get the 3c

[DarG]

I was just asking out of curiosity ...

No offense Luke, but in the pictures you have up it's obvious that the foam in the body isnt as dense as a good NW. I'm not knocking the Rogue skimmer or Bermuda, I am a huge fan. It just is what it is ... they skim great regardless of bubble size/density.

Another thought ... even running a NW pump as a feed pump, you may be altering the bubble size produced by the needlewheel feed pump when air is re-injected into the mix from the Venturi of the Rogue.

Also, would be interesting now that its dialed in to compare the performance by switching to a standard feed pump and comparing that with the needlewheel feed pump.

[luke33]

Thats the plan man. And if it gets the job done this good then i don't really care what the foam looks like. I'll try and take a pic of the foam head tonight after i clean it. imo it is just as frothy and nasty looking, like shaving cream. It just uses larger bubbles to build.

[DarG]

I agree with that. The foam concentrate at the top where it accumulates is the same. It was in my 3C too. I'm talking about the overall bubble density in the body. Not up top where it accumulates or in the neck. IMO, the Bermudas do that just as well as NW's. If they didnt they wouldnt skim as well as they do.

I agree, if they skim as well as they do, who cares about the bubble size in the main body.

[luke33]

Yea, i think there's to much emphasis on milking out the body, although I myself like to milk out the body of my NW skimmers. I think the rogue is as milked as its going to get body wise. I think i know what your talking about. Your talking about the bubble brek line, yes, its much larger spaced out bubbles and nothing like a nw skimmer's bubble break line. They both pull out good amounts of skimmate. It would be neat to see someone see if one pulls out different doc's than the other. I'd really like to take a mce600 and set it right next to my rogue and let them go at it.

[rufio173]

Originally posted by DarG
I agree with that. The foam concentrate at the top where it accumulates is the same. It was in my 3C too. I'm talking about the overall bubble density in the body. Not up top where it accumulates or in the neck. IMO, the Bermudas do that just as well as NW's. If they didnt they wouldnt skim as well as they do.

I agree, if they skim as well as they do, who cares about the bubble size in the main body.

That's because bubble size should be proportional to the amount of proteins/waste extracted. The smaller the size, the better the protein extraction... well theoretically since surface area is not proportional to the volume of said bubble.

For example, if you've got two skimmers, both can inject 500 lph of air into the body, but skimmer A produces bubbles twice as large (diameter wise) as those of skimmer B, then that means that skimmer A is far less efficient than skimmer B especially with higher and higher amounts of air input.

Say skimmer A produces bubbles of radius 1mm and skimmer B produces bubbles of radius 0.5mm. You use the surface area and volume for a sphere formulas and you find that you get a 3:1 Surface area to volume ratio for the skimmer A bubbles, but you get a 6:1 SA to vol. ratio for skimmer B bubbles. So that means for whatever you are injecting into the skimmer body, whether it be 500 lph or 1000 lph, you will always have 2 times more surface area to work with the skimmer B bubbles than you are the skimmer A bubbles. So that means as you increase the air input, skimmer B starts looking better and better than skimmer A!

At only 250 Units of air (Units of air=mm cubed), you are only going to see 750 mm(squared) increase in SA in skimmer B over skimmer A, but at 1000 Units of air, you will see a 3000 mm(squared) increase in SA in skimmer B over skimmer A.

Given these numbers, which skimmer would you want? I'd go for skimmer B with the smaller bubble size, but then again, I'm so confused by my own post, that I don't think I know which skimmer I'd pick! Haha



Peace,
John

[luke33]

John, we've already been over this a million times. Its just the fact that a bermuda skimmer will skim just as much as a nw skimmer pulling the same air and at times more so. I'm thinking the venturi type skimmers pull out more or different proteins out of the water than a nw skimmer. I have a NW skimmer that's a recirc in my sump on this tank, it pulls out a cup a day of dark brown to black skimmate. There both pulling around 35scfh. They are both pulling a cup a day. One is venturi, the other NW, so your telling me the venturi should be pulling out half but this IS NOT the case. Darg will even tell you how his small bermuda 3c pulls as much or more out than his NW skimmer he s using. So there are other variables besides just the bubble size. SOmething else is going on there that we can't see.

[DarG]

Yeah, the math is great and all but bubble size doesnt account for everything. I wouldnt say the 3C worked quite as well as the Das EX-2 but it doesnt get slapped into the back seat. They are both pulling very close to the same amount of air. The DAS does produce a little more skimmate that the 3C did with equal consistency but it's not by a landslide. The 3C on the other hand outskimmed an Octopus DDNW 150 (unmodded) and they also were very close in air injected. The Octopus again was signifigantly more milked out that the 3C indicating the typical smaller bubble size of the NW skimmer. So again, 3 different skimmers, very close to the same amount of air and the 3C did better than the one and close enough to the second in my tank. Clearly more going on than just bubble size given the same air draw. You have to consider dwell time and turbulence and lots of other factors that I definitely dont claim to be an expert about.

Now, going up to a larger aquarium or higher bio-loads could very well change the results. Both the DAS and Octopus are larger and rated for larger tanks than the 3C. But again, it still shows that bubble size is only one factor. The Bermuda skimmers work well, very well, despite what may be mathematical disadvantages. They are also built well, dont need to be fussed with and arent outrageously priced. Plus they are easy to maintain and dont need specialized pumps. Alot of plusses to them.

Unfortunatley, it is assumed that Venturi skimmers are all old tech. skimmers that can't do the job any longer. Bermuda did enough things differently with them that they can compete with the needle wheel and needle wheel recircs. that are in their price ranges and I'm sure, some that cost a good bit more. The newer european designs that cost starting in the upper hundreds and up may be a different story but they are worth a look for those wanting a good skimmer in the affordable range.

[bergzy]

okie,

it has been a while since my 5c has been up and running...

here is a pic of it with my barrel refugium (live rock in it with the white bucket to grow chaeto).

you'll see that the 5c chamber is 'whited out' with bubbles...very small bubble size...as small as nw's? from the nw's i have seen, i would say yes or very very close to it.

for those not familiar with the bermuda design...why there are no bubbles at the very bottom of the clear skimmer body is that there is a 'diffusion' chamber at the bottom of the skimmer body and in the black acrylic box. the diffusion chamber, i am guessing, is like the diffusion plate found on bubble kings etc. it definitely decreases turbulence in the skimmer body...something that my becketts lacked and perhaps was one of the reasons that this skimmer seemingly outperforms my large becketts.



if you can discern the big reef concept beckett skimmer in the picture, i have since taken that offline and could not be happier.

the beckett did great. the only problem was that it required constant attention to get consistent skimmate. a little too much here and the skimmate would be near water and i would change the auto waste collector 3 - 4 times a day. or, if you dont open the gate valve enough, then you get no skimmate. it was a tough balancing act.

with the 5c, once i got the desired quality (wetness), the quantitiy has settled to about one gallon to 1 1/2 gallon of wet skimmate per day. i prefer wet and dial in my skimmer to be wet.

now...the 5c retail is about $500...plus, the cost of a good pump which will run $100 to $250. not a 'cheap' venturi skimmer by any means. i was most fortunate to have won it at our local reef event at a raffle (not free but the price was great...given that i could have not won a thing!!!).

i am seriously wanting the bermuda k10. but i have to resist the temptation as i am finding that a properly sized skimmer (not too small or too big) is actually important for consistent skimmate production. i would and should not change my 5c out despite the extreme desire to do so.

[rufio173]

Maybe the bermudas are really doing something different, but I've just gotten away from straightforward venturi skimmers of any kind. I've owned becketts, lifereefs, mazzei venturi injected skimmers and I just love the way needlewheels skim. Needlewheel skimmers have always skimmed slightly better on my tanks. Of course, you hear it from both sides of the fence all of the time.

I doubt I'll ever get a bermuda skimmer unless I can see how they are producing their bubbles.

For those having great luck with their bermudas. Skim on!

In terms of swirling the water or "vortexing" it, this does not increase dwell time, the bubbles will rise at the same rate independent of whether you swirl them or straight inject them. I remember talking about this stuff years and years ago. Although I think that it may increase travel distance of the bubbles and maybe that makes a difference, but it certainly doesn't increase dwell time.

Peace,
John

[GSMguy]

there are a few venturi designs that seem to work the Elos skimmers come to mind.

[luke33]

Originally posted by rufio173


In terms of swirling the water or "vortexing" it, this does not increase dwell time, the bubbles will rise at the same rate independent of whether you swirl them or straight inject them. I remember talking about this stuff years and years ago. Although I think that it may increase travel distance of the bubbles and maybe that makes a difference, but it certainly doesn't increase dwell time.

Peace,
John

Here we go! One reason I think the rogue does so well is because the vortex you are talking about is actually vertical. The air in the reaction chamber spins all around 1-2x's before reaching the surface. Like i have said before i'm not sure if bermuda designed this skimmer to do this on purpose or if its pure luck, anyhow it does give the air more reaction time in the chamber. Now the insump bermuda's i've seen do not do that but this is the rogue wave thread so thats what i'm talking about. ; )

[rufio173]

Hey Luke,

Sorry about that, sounds like it'll definitely increase dwell time.

Glad you are getting some nice performance out of the rogue. Sounds like a really solid buy and a really solid HOT.

Peace,
John

[luke33]

No worries John, just thought i'd point that one out again. I've never seen a skimmer do that before but it is rectangular and the shape forces the water that way. I'm pretty sure its dumb luck but thats great for the design. If not then kudos to bermuda. There one step ahead then.

[luke33]

OK, last night i decided i'd let the rogue rock and roll full blast. The air meter is at 10scfh with the sicce pump and its moving up an down on the bermuda venturi from 25-50scfh so i'm not even sure what its pulling but i woke up the smornin and it had 2cups of dark rown skimmate. I was afraid i would get home after work and it would be overflowed.....well i was correct. Over 3.5cups of this was in the collection cup and here's what 23oz looks like. There is already a half cup in the cup now. I may have to hook up the drain to it.

[happyface888]

So whats in that Breakfast Drink?



Thats some sick skimmate. I wonder how are the others doing with their rogue?