who out there goes with a bare bottom tank. Just live rock and no substrate?

[Doug]

Here is a thread that I found where Dr. Ron mentions one year.

Dr. Ron post about dsb maturity.

I remember seeing six months somewhere else but I can't seem to find it.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Doug

Also, off-topic, do you remember that red cotton like algae that you helped me with? I took your advice and added some snails and they wiped all of it out in a short time. I do not think that it was "high nutrient" algae since it was able to live and reproduce in my prop tank with 100% new water.

Thanks again.

The big Mexican Turbos? That algae was nasty. Attacking it from a nutrient standpoint didn't work for me either.

[rallendorph]

Hi Folks,

Sorry for Delay in response, just love MS Ops Sys. Very model of Robustness.

My Fuge will hang off my sump, be fed by a pump and overflow back to the sump. So, I could isolate it from sump during maintenance activities. I could also move the Skimmer input into the fuge to help filter during maintenance as well.

So my thoughts are, I will have a fairly big Fuge in 100G Stock tank. dividing into 1/3 sections still leaves me a large area of untouched DSB if I do maintenance on a single partition. So, I hope that I would not have a great disruption to it's operation.

Since each partition is somewhat isolated, I should be able to vacume that area thouroughly. Or, if it solidifies, I guess I could vacume, or scoop it to a bucket / tub, and rinse it with fresh salt water. Would I ever have a reason to throw the sand out V.S. cleaning it. ? I would guess that if I simply cleaned it, I would have little nutrient spike, and or problems as that DSB partition re-establishes.

Also If the Sand bed takes ~18 months to fully establish, then maybe I perform this operation once a year. That way I would always have a two year old sand bed in 2/3 of the Fuge.

I include a pic of my planned sump room. The fuge is shown as an acrylic tank but is really a Rubbermaid stock tank.

In any case, my 225G tank should arrive in 2 weeks, and the sump room should be ready by then. So my only delay getting verything started up, is my electricain getting his work done.

Rob A.

[uryy4me]

Originally posted by rallendorph
So my only delay getting verything started up, is my electricain getting his work done.

Rob A.

Geeze. thanks for the reminder, I need to get an electrician out to wire my backup generator into the house (running extension cords is wearing thin) and get a new box installed to run mu lights and pump...any clues on a cost for something like this, ballpark? $500, 1k, 2k?...I know it is not a fair question, just looking or a reasonability guage.

thanks

- scott -

[rallendorph]

Doh.. here is a modified pic with proposed sump partitions. Just love MS products......

Rob A.

[rallendorph]

uryy4me -

When my electrician comes back I'll let you know. I am also putting an external generator outside. I expect unit will be 750 to 1k + installation. I'll let you know.

Rob A.

[bowfront]

I've got 150ft of 1" drain hose from the boat. I'm using that to siphon the sand right into the canal behind the house while I pump in clean water.

Hey Jerrel don't do it. Reef keeping rule #1 don't release anything exotic period back into the ocean ...sand, snails, fish, SW, algea you name it back into the natural environment. Not a safe practice and not one that should be promoted here. As I recall your reef is basically Florida/Carribean but still it's a no, no. If you don't believe me contact FWC.

[tendar]

Bowfront good point I was just getting ready to point that out also with just pumping all your sand into the canal could have some bad affects on your local ecology that could end up being very bad to local fauna and who knows what else. Just ask california about feather calurpa.

As for having a seperate refugium with a DSB. I see this as a way to get the good effects of the DSP but with out the rocks and corals and every thing on top of it then it would be easy to maintain and sihpon out and detris that builds up over time and easy to replace part of it with new sand to keep the old stiffled affect that can build up. I personally will be doing a remote reguium with a 6-7" DSB since I plan on a turttle grass refugium which requires deep sand to plant and grow but will be able work with it as time goes on or even replace the whole thing with out much effort.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by bowfront
Hey Jerrel don't do it. Reef keeping rule #1 don't release anything exotic period back into the ocean ...sand, snails, fish, SW, algea you name it back into the natural environment. Not a safe practice and not one that should be promoted here. As I recall your reef is basically Florida/Carribean but still it's a no, no. If you don't believe me contact FWC.

Bow don't worry, the tank is not "basically" Caribbean, it's 100% local - rocks, sand, water, animals, everything. Nothing has ever gone in it that didn't come out of the front yard. And nothing has "morphed" into some sort of boogie either.
We don't have pet shops here. LOL

[horge]

Deep Sand Beds?
My take, from a necessarily narrow field of view:

DSB Logic
On the face of it, DSB's are founded on sound logic, albeit with a pretty serious Achilles' heel. The benefits of FULL bacterial reduction of DON is pretty much beyond debate. The benefits of a large scavenger population protected from predation should also be plain to all. That old 'Parsifal's grail' of biodiversity should also recommend any thinking that allows it, and a DSB ostensibly provides a larger refuge for more creatures.

Those features are always popular.
The problem for me has always been the do-not-disturb sign hung on DSB's, and I'm a big fan of disruption as a tool in captive ecosystem management.

Another problem is the DSB's widespread mis-application.


SandBed Biodiversity
I don't know where it's gone (it may have been deleted because of Richard Harker's ...errr persistence in it, but there was this early thread where I pointed out the need to 'reset' a DSB periodically even if from just a biodiversity standpoint, what with certain species becoming dominant to the exclusion of beneficial others. A physical reset, involving physical disturbance of portions of the bed (said disruption intended to reduce excessive bed populations of the dominant species, and let all players rebuild from scratch) was considered taboo: DSB's are defined as do-not-disturb affairs.

The solution given was to keep purchasing sandbed critter kits periodically.

Toxic Metals
I remember when Ron first mentioned an interest in toxic metals with respect to long-term operation of a DSB. I immediately trotted out a longstanding concern regarding stockpiling, this time confining it to the thread topic: metals.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...threadid=55639

Unfortunately this then gave way to a tight-focusing on JUST toxic metals, when the less-spectacular problem of overfilling the DSB with all manner of solid vehicles was perhaps deserving of more attention. Whether one focuses on just metals or undifferentiated flocs, precips and other solids, the DSB is a catchment.

*Because DSB's are largely do-not-disturb affairs... perhaps focus was directed at materials that might perhaps be removed or absorbed WITHOUT disrespecting the do-not-disturb principle. Algal export was toyed with as an adjunct to DSB's


Algal Export
Ron and many others looked to algal export as a crutch to the perceived 'metal stockpiling' problem.

The problem to algal export is one of proximity.
These things are most conveniently (from the POV of aesthetics and control vs unwanted colonization of the display) located remotely. That means that if the algae are presumed to be pulling DON and other yummies from the water, then you'd better have really good volume turnover to keep concentrations low in the display. Otherwise, you'll always have a background quantity of DON and metals in-transit, in the water, in the display, ready to get weighed down and dragged into your DSB where there's drastically less chance for algal assimilation, much less export (do not disturb, remember?).

So... with a remote algal filter ---colonization of the display be damned, and focusing solely on nutrient export-- you want massive turnover.

In our aquaria, where purely-circulation raceways (pipes) are a heck of a lot tighter than the display (unlike nature, where the pipe is the same width or diameter as the reef) massive turnover seems to always mean more turbulence than is recommended for a do-not-disturb DSB. Even if unicellulars take up nutrient and metal in the course of photosynthesis, you are:

left with the crud they can't use
left with the nutrient-and-metal loaded photosythesizers (they've nowhere to go without an export scheme, ya?)
so... zero export just the same.

-----------------


Strata spec aside, the DSB's key features: local placement, having wide footprint and gravity on its side, when coupled with flow schemes that tend not to disturb the DSB, inevitably result in a detritus sink.

One can talk about bacterially liberating N all day, but a DSB possesses finite void space, and it's going to fill up with material that neither bacteria, scavengers nor photo-synthesizers are going to reduce.

If you can locate the DSB remotely, you lose a heck of a lot of the original appeal: footprint and coverage, but at least you can combo it with export algae in remote, and you can try to compensate for the distance with increased and diversified display current (something I hope we can agree could use improvement in nearly all aquaria).


HERE'S THE KICKER

A lot of the people who turned to DSB's didn't really need to.
It was like purchasing an M1A1 Abrams for home defense:
more maintenance, more expense, and more knowledge required for its upkeep, than for an LR-based barebottom handgun.

I thought the point to DSB's was to entertain more robust food-loads, and frankly, you're going to take on more work for so long as you're ladling in more dead food --no matter WHAT system you use to address the resultant waste/nutrient.

I thought that high-energy foodwebs were part and parcel of a higher-temperature, faster metabolism, and denser stocking milieu, which IIRC wasn't really for everyone, just the gearheads who wanted to push the envelope.

I thought that if you WEREN'T into that sort of severe leverage and pushing the envelope, then bare-bottom, LR-based systems were the cheap, time-tested way to go.


If you're willing to go for high-energy foodwebs, then OF COURSE you should expect to take on a handful: DSB quirks and flaws included. To my recall, DSB's were originally perceived to be for the masochistic among the advanced so-called elite in the hobby, pursuing the then-interesting high-energy foodweb angle.

Then all of a sudden DSB's were marketed as 'standard equipment' for all marine aquaria.



Bottom line, even for advanced users, the DSB's always had a serious flaw which users could maybe swallow as the price for pushing the energy and temp envelope.

For typical aquarium setups, I don't see why LR-barebottom won't serve, and serve impressively.



Just my .02

[Bomber]

Originally posted by horge
Deep Sand Beds?

Then all of a sudden DSB's were marketed as 'standard equipment' for all marine aquaria.

So, you're saying they become nutrient sinks?

Here's the take on it. Surface area, bacterial colonization. Everyone wants to be a pro and if you do what the pro's do, and use what the pro's use.

Originally posted by Bomber
I think they are the biggest asset to the retail tropical fish industry since the invention of the under gravel filter and dry/wet. They allow more people to make more mistakes and get away with it longer, separating them from more of their money faster than anything the retail industry has come up with yet.

Good Morning Horge!

[horge]

You mean good evening, Jerel.

It's 7:15 in the evening here inthe Philippines,
I'm still at the office, and I'm wondering what/how to cook for my wife.



A sink?

Yeah, I've been pointing it out for years, politely in Ron's Forum and sometimes not too politely... also in Ron's Forum, and the latter threads have vanished (since other posters got abusive, so I'm not too surprised) .

Never mind nutrients, just being a sink for inerts is the death knell for any long-term DSB use ---all that voidspace gets filled up real fast (2-7 years, it seems) when you consider how much money and effort and initial downtime are involved in operating it. DSB's have their uses, if all you want is a fairly-tight window (up to 4 years maybe) to try high-energy and see what it's all about.

Me? Most of the time I want a reasonably faithful, visually-appealing depiction of the wild reef in the house: low maintenance and low cost.

If it costs more than (**horge does quick calculations**) $1.50 per US gallon of tank (tank, lights, salt, fish, corals, equipment etc...) to acquire and over $30 a year to operate... I'd rather go out and snorkel the real thing. Cheaper and good eating too.



Phht.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by horge
I'm still at the office, and I'm wondering what/how to cook for my wife.



A sink?

Yeah, I've been pointing it out for years, politely in Ron's Forum and sometimes not too politely... also in Ron's Forum, and the latter threads have vanished (since other posters got abusive, so I'm not too surprised) .

Never mind nutrients, just being a sink for inerts is the death knell for any long-term DSB use ---all that voidspace gets filled up real fast (2-7 years, it seems) when you consider how much money and effort and initial downtime are involved in operating it.

DSB's have their uses, if asll you want is a tight window (up to 4 years maybe) to try high-energy. Me, most of the time I want a reasonably faithful, visually-appealing depiction of the wild reef in the house: low maintenance and low cost.

If it costs more than (**horge does quick calculations**) $1.50 per US gallon (tank, lights, salt, fish, corals, etc...) to acquire and over $30 a year to operate... I'd rather go out and snorkel the real thing.



Phht.

I hear that.
Surprised you didn't get banned rotfl

[Bomber]

"Another problem is the DSB's widespread mis-application."

Originally posted by horge
DSB's are defined as do-not-disturb affairs.
The solution given was to keep purchasing sandbed critter kits periodically.

You know something, I think that really comes from trying to cut corners on Jaubert's plenum design and marketing it to the retail customer. It's hard enough to get people to grasp just the basics, much less the intricacies. This way all you really have to tell someone is dump in this much sand, add this and wait - then you can come back a spend a lot of money.

Originally posted by horge
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...threadid=55639
Unfortunately this then gave way to a tight-focusing on JUST toxic metals, when the less-spectacular problem of overfilling the DSB with all manner of solid vehicles was perhaps deserving of more attention. Whether one focuses on just metals or undifferentiated flocs, precips and other solids, the DSB is a catchment.

But it would have to be something other than organics. DSB's were promoted as reducing organics and making it possible to never siphon detritus again. (pulling your leg here)

Originally posted by horge
The problem to algal export is one of proximity.
These things are most conveniently (from the POV of aesthetics and control vs unwanted colonization of the display) located remotely. That means that if the algae are presumed to be pulling DON and other yummies from the water, then you'd better have really good volume turnover to keep concentrations low in the display. Otherwise, you'll always have a background quantity of DON and metals in-transit, in the water, in the display, ready to get weighed down and dragged into your DSB where there's drastically less chance for algal assimilation, much less export (do not disturb, remember?).

So... with a remote algal filter ---colonization of the display be damned, and focusing solely on nutrient export-- you want massive turnover.

The only problem I can see with this setup would be the problem of going back to the filter fluff/ wet/dry type of situation. Where you have a concentration of detritus building up faster than it can properly be processed, resulting in nitrate buildup.

Originally posted by horge
A lot of the people who turned to DSB's didn't really need to.
It was like purchasing an M1A1 Abrams for home defense:

Then all of a sudden DSB's were marketed as 'standard equipment' for all marine aquaria.

Bottom line, even for advanced users, the DSB's always had a serious flaw which users could maybe swallow as the price for pushing the energy and temp envelope.

For typical aquarium setups, I don't see why LR-barebottom won't serve, and serve impressively.

I agree 100%.

Now I know I'm lazy, and I'll admit it. When I considered setting up a DSB on this tank I liked the idea of processing detritus indefinitely, at least that's the way DSB's were sold at that time. They were supposed to be this one thing in the bottom of the tank that makes your life easier. Now it's progressed to the next phase, you need some sort of refugia/algae scrubber thing to support the DSB and make the DSB work right. Then recently people are talking about setting up several remote DSB's and cycling them out to make it work right.
I have a image in my mind of one of those hamster habitats with all the tubes and tunnels connected to different pods running all over the living room.

Does anyone realize that all this is just to support detritus? If you simply take the detritus out you don't need this whole life support system to support it.

[Flatlander]

Just a note for newer aquarists reading this thread.

As I am one of the OFR,s I have run and seen everything from the dsb to bare bottom tanks to the under gravel filter tanks.

I have seen hair algae growth in them all. Running bare does work well, as many are posting about here, but note the mentioning of good cleaning habits. I have seen tanks that were bare bottom, with terrible hair algae growth on the rocks.

Like Jerel mentions he would rather siphon crap out during water changes, as a filtration method. I would also advocate a kick butt skimmer, that processes mucho water & waste. Also, something like an turf scrubber, that uses no sandbed like a refugium, will process much of the non detritus waste products, like phosphates, nitrates, nitrites, ammonia and so on.

Also, {mentioned by Jerel}, a tank with corals that can handle lots of current, will keep much of the detritus suspended, so the filters can remove it. There will still be some build up in places, but the current can be customized to put it in areas that are easily siphoned.

[DownUnder-Reefer]

Quick question- Where do the heavy/toxic metals that everyone keeps quoting come from?

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Doug Lowey
I have seen tanks that were bare bottom, with terrible hair algae growth on the rocks.

I've owned that tank too. Any time you use bad make-up water, over feed, under skim (crank up that kick butt skimmer), just anything that lets organics build up.

This is just the first time I'm used the right water, fed right, exported right, and still had hair algae that won't go away.

Originally posted by Doug Lowey
Also, {mentioned by Jerel}, a tank with corals that can handle lots of current, will keep much of the detritus suspended, so the filters can remove it. There will still be some build up in places, but the current can be customized to put it in areas that are easily siphoned.

Another thing is designing the system around the animals and visa/versa. Using a combination of animals that are very proficient at taking nutrients out of the water column to keep the levels low for the animals that don't like it. Or just keeping animals that like high nutrient levels.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Jimmy_D
Quick question- Where do the heavy/toxic metals that everyone keeps quoting come from?

Jimmy

Some people are saying salt mixes, some food, and some as impurities in supplements/additives or make up water.

[uryy4me]

Originally posted by rallendorph
uryy4me -

When my electrician comes back I'll let you know. I am also putting an external generator outside. I expect unit will be 750 to 1k + installation. I'll let you know.

Rob A.

Thanks!

[piercho]

So...what is recommended for people, like myself, who have built their tanks around animals associated with sandbed communities like M. doorensis, Fungia, Thallasia, etc? My doorensis won't care for a bare-bottom tank, I think. Thallasia might have a tough time, too. OK, not to be flippant, but what do I do? Replace 1/2 or more of the sandbed every 3 years plus add fresh "slices" of wild sandbed about as often? What is the husbandry needed to keep small, semi-closed sandbed communities functioning and prevent them from "filling up", if that is your desire? TIA.

[Mark]

Hey piercho,

Well, considering that fungias are my favorite all time corals. I plan to have a shallow bed of sand(1/4-1/2" deep), and not the fine muddy southdown stuff either. as for Turtle grass, I dunno. I plan to grow some in the fuge. I speculate, that some of the negatives to a DSB can be offset by nutrient uptake via rooted plants(mangroves and sea grass). But that's just my personal speculation.

[rallendorph]

Bomber et al....

Hamster trails.... Yep, I can appreciate that.

Being a charter member of the ignorant :fun1:, I do admit my thoughts are rudimetary at best. I base my proposed methodolgy to periodically clean a portion of the DSB as a path to maintaing it's positive beinfit from many of the observations that you, and other more experienced folks have relayed.

Since I will have a dedicated sump room, and can fashion the remote sump and fuge to be whatever I wish, I have maybe too many options. I can easily implement dedicated, or combination DSB/refugia/algae scrubber/Mangoes, whatever...

If you had the opportunity to implement any filtration (biological / mechanical) schema you desired what would you do to maximize the water and nutrient quality of your environment ?

My thoughts are to provide the maximum bio-diversity and environmental stability that I can, while maintaining simple and pleasing Show tank[s] display areas.

Thanks,
Rob A.

[SPC]

I plan to have about 1" of sand Howard, I also love some of the sand bed animals. I have stated before that I love the looks of sand, and will do my best to be able to keep some in the main tank.
My whole thought process will be geared around being able to remove detritus (which it is right now too). I feel that with 1" of sand I can vacuum and/or replace the sand when needed.
I think that I will have to go with a larger sand grain this time as I plan to add more flow.
Steve

[Bomber]

Originally posted by rallendorph
If you had the opportunity to implement any filtration (biological / mechanical) schema you desired what would you do to maximize the water and nutrient quality of your environment ?

Run a pipe from the tank to the canal behind the house and run a open system.
...................................well you said "any"

Realistically though, live rock, skimming, water changes and vacuuming detritus. That will actually do it all and everything after that is trying to figure out how to hold on to it.

[bluereefs]

If you had the opportunity to implement any filtration (biological / mechanical) schema you desired what would you do to maximize the water and nutrient quality of your environment ?
Not to much live rock,smalest amount which is posible,strong chemical filtrations with new chemical filtration media(phosphate remover,zeovit,high quality activated carbon...),small harmles fishes(we try to create coral garden after all not fishes aquarium),various macro and micro algae in main tank and refugium(that also mean not herbivorus animal),diferent kind of easy to keep sponges(colospongia sp,haliclona blue sponge,chicken liver sponges...mostly photosyntetic sponges with few easy non photosyntetic sponges)they are something like natural uv lamps ,also sea squirts and tunicates,right combination of corals like mentioned before positioned with good plan,water changes,detritus vacuming and finally technical side of the aquarium must be simplest as posible .And is also very good to have few tanks conected in one system .
And bare bottom or small amount of CC for decorated purpose