Sicce pumps

[ostrow]

Originally posted by ostrow
Model PSK-2500

Max Flow 2500 lph

Max Head(meters) 3 Meters



Quiet One 3000
3000 lph
310 cm max ht

These and other specs I could have copied are different.

Search any store, the cover is not the same. And the impellers are not the same. And the windings are not the same.

If you can get the same flow without mesh-modding the impeller, reducing the water intake properly, and devising some venturi, then more power to you! There's obviously more than one way to skin a cat.

$12 vs hours of figuring out exactly how to mod a pump with which you are unfamiliar, and likely to go through many materials as well? It's worth knowing that it is available so easily and affordably.

This thread was about Sicce pumps, not Quiet One pumps. They are more expensive, yes. There's plenty of reason to believe they are more reliable, better skimmer pumps.

Nobody has said they are the second coming of the Messiah.

[luke33]

Don't know why you quoted yourself but ok ; ) Anyhow, the sicce 2500 and QO3000 are both 780gph. The QO4000 and sicce suprema are both 1018gph. They both perform the same as the other. The only difference is the price tag.....and one is made in italy. Which one is actually better is hard to tell......but the one is much cheaper. And both will work the same. One just seems to have this hype around it.....and i own one. lol. It pulls 35scfh's stock. This is kinda like the red dragon vs laguna argument except there price difference isn't 20x to 1.

[ostrow]

I don't know how that quoted post got there. Didn't intend to do that!

So 2500 = 3000? There is no difference there? My math skills must have seriously deteriorated.

I don't know the scfh scale and can't find a good calculator. How does that compare to 24lpm?

Not that this is relevant. One is made in Italy, the other, just guessing here, in China?

[ostrow]

I finally found a scale that suggests 35 scfh is 16lpm.

Again, my math may be wrong, but 16 = 24?

[luke33]

Here's a good scale for ya for future ref's

http://www.randystacye.com/images/di...Conversion.xls

And yes you are correct 16 to 24 but the 16 is unmodded. After mesh and a venturi mod it'll be pulling 24scfh no prob. And I wouldn't recomend putting the QO in your mouth(lead paint may be there)

Like i said, i don't want to argue. For a reference the QO 4000 has always been qoted at 1018gph but the sicce suprema which is supose to be 4100lph or 1017gph has been quoted at 900, 990, and 1018gph on various sites. The sicce's have had issues with ratings because of 220v, 120v models. But like i said, both will pull alot of air.

[ostrow]

Orca Systems, 10" chamber, 30" tall, 6" neck. Insump recirc (Sicce pumps get hot out of the water - no venting mechanism or something). PUmps pulling 24lpm and 22lpm, one at 32 watts the other at 41 watts (no idea why the lower air draw one is running less efficiently but there you have it).

Pics after about 24hrs of use:

Whole skimmer:


Chamber:


Neck:


Pumps:


Bubbles halfway up neck in cup:

[LA-Lawman]

how much was your skimmer? and can they do that to an 8" body?

[ostrow]

look in their gallery. 1-pump sicce skimmer on 8.5" body. www.protein-skimmer.com, click on products then on gallery.

[Bax]

ostrow

That looks nice! I am going to do something similar with my ASM G4 body and my two sicci pumps.

[ostrow]

You don't want 2 Sicces on an ASM G4, I can tell you that!

[Bax]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
60-70 lph per square inch of neck diameter is the ideal. So 8" neck is good to about 3500lph. 6" is good just up to 2000lph. If you go higher (like 100lph/sq. in.) then you can have more frequent overflow problems because bubbles will get shot up the neck too fast.

ostrow

I've been planning this based upon information like this quote above. Given the 8+" diameter body, 30" overall hieght and that my two siccis will not be over 3000 lph, I have been thinking it should work well. I have tested one meshed sicci on it and it can definitly handle more than the one sicci. I figure if it's too much, I'll run on as a recirc and one as a feed.

Any thoughts?

[ostrow]

The BODY on the G4 is 8". The neck is 4".

[ostrow]

The BODY on the G4 is 8". The neck is 4".

That quote ... I wouldn't go much by that. Sorry Hahn but it just doesn't hold true.

That said, a G4 can't handle 2 Sicces.

[hahnmeister]

And why would you say it doesnt hold true?

[manderx]

and why would you say it does hold true?

and what is a 'square inch of neck diameter' anway?

[JCTewks]

simple math. radius squared X PI.

so a 4" neck has 12.5668 sq/in of area X 70lph=879.676lph/60=14.6612 lpm.

[JCTewks]

The height of the neck to some extent will affect how much air it will handle....well, it really just determines where your water level will be at for good skimate production.
I was able to put 10 LPM into my Octopus DNW110 with a 5"X20" body and 2.5" neck...but the water level was 3" below the top of the body I added an 18" neck extension for a total neck length of about 23" and could still only put about 7lpm into it without having the water level down into the body a lot. I'm currently feeding about 5lpm without the neck extension and the water level is right where the neck comes out of the cone. By hahns figures that 2.5" neck can handle 4.908-5.727 lpm of air...so i think his figures are pretty close.

[hahnmeister]

Yes, 1/2 diameter squared x 3.14 = square inches.

Dont get me wrong, you can go above these numbers... there are many skimmers that do... when you go above 100 though, you are more overflow prone... and yes, the height of the neck plays a role as well, but in most cases, the ideal neck size is 60-70lpm/in2. Sure, standard pipe sizes can cause this to vary (usually for a higher number than lower), but they still hold true.

I got these numbers by getting the stats on all major skimmers out there... H&S, Deltec, ER (note: 80, 750, 1000 are over 100, yes, but these models are also overflow prone), BK, ATI, Tunze, Grotech, ASM, Octo, etc. The stat isnt out of thin air. And it only covers the diameter, not the height. The height is a very subjective thing... in general, when in doubt, go taller... since you can always raise the water level above the reducer (it should be anyways), but you cant lower it past that point w/o problems. I will also note that this does not include becketts... they are a different beast all together.

What matters most is the throughput of air per square inch, since the water level can be varied anyways, and as long as you have a proportional height, you should be fine. The transition to the neck also varies the final neck height. Skimmers with 'flatter' transitions (like the ER shape) often need taller necks. Skimmers with the tall cone bodies dont need as much. But like I said, all Im talking about with those figures is the throughput, so cross sectional area/square inches is the primary concern. When you look at the maximum flow through a bulkhead/hole, the length isnt a concern... or the maximum amount of air that a skimmer diameter can take... the height doesnt play a role. Its not like a 6' tall 8" diameter skimmer can take more air per square inch than a 2' tall 8" diameter skimmer just because its taller. The most you want to put through an 8" diameter body is 1800lph.... short or tall. Same goes for necks.

[Bax]

Thanks all for the input to this tread.

Once again, I've miss applied some important pieces of information, AGAIN, ( that neck vs body diameter thing) my fault, and spent a lot of time playing with mods that won't work in the long run (mainly of my own misconstrued design) . But, I am learning a bit more about skimmer construction each time. It is threads like this one that really put out a lot of solid information out for those of us who are otherwise skimmer challenged to sift through and mull over.

Thanks again

[ostrow]

Experience tells that those numbers are wrong as far as how skimmers work. Look at the Reeflow with its 6" neck for goodness' sake. Look at the bubblekings.

In any case, my skimmer can handle much more air than I am putting in (becuase I can still lower the water level quite a bit). I may see if I can push the Sicce's some more -- but gonna wait a month or two first.

[hahnmeister]

There are some exceptions, but the ReefFlo and BK's are close to the numbers as well. The ReefFlo is on the high end, dont get me wrong (120-130) but its also a recirc so it is less sensitive. And, nobody said 6" diameter was ideal for it either. 8" diameter is better for 3600lph. BK's follow the guidelines though. Their skimmers were part of how I came up with the original numbers.

[ostrow]

Starting to get a nice foam head on mine. Will post pics again perhaps tomorrow.

[pescadero]

Originally posted by rishma
not sure if the QO start-up issue are is related to the mesh mod. That is a consistent complaint about the QO3000.

i wonder if anyone has weighed their impellers before/after modding them to see if there's a difference in the weight of the native impeller vs. the mesh mod impeller. with any magnetic pump that has no internal moving parts, there is a limit to the available startup torque. if its exceeded, the pump will try to change directions and you can get stuck in an endless loop.

the docs for the QO3k explicitly state that this is not abnormal. has anyone read them? with an unmodded impeller, if the startup torque is exceeded the pump will reverse directions "in an effort to clear itself of an obstruction." eventually the (stock) impeller should start rotating in the right direction, as the motor only provides enough torque to run the impeller in one direction because of its rounded blades.

when a mesh mod is performed all of this "normal" behavior gets thrown out the window. the mesh provides a very high resistance to water flow (or to the impeller's rotation in the water). if you pack too much mesh in there, you might easily exceed the limit of torque that can be supplied by the motor. perhaps taking out a layer or two of mesh (instead of packing as much mesh as will physically fit into the volute) will help to solve the problem.

at any rate, its seems to be well established that the QO3k doesn't have excessive amounts of startup torque. i wonder if by adding enough mass or by adding sufficient impedance to rotation of the impeller, those who are having startup problems after a mesh mod may have simply exceeded the amount of available startup torque that the motor can provide.

with all of the attention that people seem to be paying WRT watts, VA, and SCFM, its somewhat surprising that nobody has taken any torque measurements. it would be interesting to see if anyone could address the inertia & torque issues WRT startup problems. FWIW, i'm not having any startup problems with any of my QO3k pumps. i have two. they have had their I/O ports modded to improve flow but they both have the original impellers.

[JCTewks]

I think the main reason that nobody is measuring torque is we just don't know how. I'm giessing that any sort of gadget that could do that would be quite expensive also...and for $60 I got a kill-a-watt and a dwyer meter and can test RMS watts, VA, and SCFH on anything I have. I think it would be a very valid test, I just don;'t know if it would be simple enough for most of us sideline DIYers to do

[hahnmeister]

Torque on AC motors isnt constant anyways... the alternating frequency has 'lulls' in between poles, so its not something you CAN exactly measure with a simple instrument. The easier way would be to crack one open, take some specs, and run it in a simulator.