The Ultimate DIY Rocks! - Page 10

ROR · #**226** 12/11/2006, 12:24 PM

Has ayone come up with a neutral buffer we could add to the rock curing water? At 6 weeks I have put my rocks in my 180g tank with fresh water but I'm adding 1 tablespoon of muriatic acid every morning and evening to keep the PH neutral. It would be nice to have something solid I could throw in there to act as a buffer.

Rob

RandyStacyE · #**227** 12/11/2006, 01:17 PM

Good question ROR ... I've been following this thread for a while and I don't believe I read where anyone has tested and listed their results.

Adding muriatic acid is the only thing I can think of doing to help speed the process. I imagine if the water is too acidic it can begin to break down or weaken the rock. I don't know this for a fact, but I've 'acid etched' MANY poured concrete floors and the % of acid to water is important.

For instance, too much acid for instance will turn a patio block into a pile of sand. I've done this.

I have NEVER made my own rock or tried this with the acid ... I'm just throwing out a thought here ... or maybe more of a precaution.

tankslave · #**228** 12/12/2006, 02:26 PM

I suppose you could add one of those buffer solutions they sell for your tank. Will check my pH later...

Are you guys saying you added the rocks to your tank and you have to add acid to keep the pH down?? what pH are you getting? Maybe just keeping argonite in a bottle of water would raise the pH just as well. I suspect that once the rocks are in a tank, the pH will be ok. I mean, we add kalk to our tanks, which has a pH of 12, and the tank hardly gets above 8.4.

This would be a good question for Randy Holmes Farley...

ROR · #**229** 12/12/2006, 02:58 PM

My tank isn't set up yet, I'm just using it to neutralize the rocks. I was curing them in garbage cans, but didn't seem to be getting anywhere, even with water changes.

ODOG · #**230** 12/12/2006, 03:16 PM

Ror, go back to page 1 of the second half of this thread and look for the cement wall thread link posted. The user of that thread used yeast to help cure.

TheHuff · #**231** 12/12/2006, 04:05 PM

Alright, i have been following this thread for a long time now, i even made my own rocks! I used 1 part portland type 2 cement to 2 parts aroganite, 1 part rock salt. I made these rocks almost two months ago, yet the PH is still upwards of 9.5... I have the rocks in a garbage can, filled with water, and a little bit of vinegar, i change this water every day, but nothing seems to get the PH lower, i even tried 2 weeks of the "yeast" Trick, but that wont work either. I was wondering if anyone knows of something to quicken this process.... Thanks

lildraken · #**232** 12/12/2006, 09:12 PM

TheHuff, I suspect that your rocks are pretty think. Did you allow the cement to hydrate OUT of water for a couple of weeks before you started to soak it in water? Also, in my opinion, putting the rocks in moving water, perhaps with an airstone or something will cure the rocks faster. In still water, we're only dependent of diffusion (movement of molecules from higher concentration to lower concentration) to cure the rocks. Circulating the water will definitely help in the process in my belief.

TheHuff · #**233** 12/13/2006, 10:08 AM

The rocks did sit out of water for about a week before begining the soaking process, is that not long enough, could i take them out now? The water is being moved around by a small pump, i htink a maxi 400 or something.

Has anyone tried muriatic acid, i have seen it mentioned a few times, but no one has posted there results, good or bad...

lildraken · #**234** 12/13/2006, 11:46 AM

i'm curing a second batch of rocks myself at this time. I've noticed that after letting the cement hydrate out of water before I soak them, they do not produce that "sludge" that leaches out when I finally soaked them. I haven't tested the pH yet but the water they're in looks crystal clear after 4 days.

TheHuff · #**235** 12/13/2006, 12:01 PM

My Water looks Crystal clear as well, infact there is no sludge, only problem the PH is sky high....

ROR · #**236** 12/13/2006, 12:24 PM

Muriatic acid will lower your PH but you will have to add it a couple of times a day.

I will be away for a couple o f weeks, so I've put mine outside to let the west coast rain go to work on them. It's almost like a river here

barbra · #**237** 12/13/2006, 03:39 PM

I am curious about the longevity of the stucco mix. As a Californian used to LOTS of stucco facades I was surprised to find that it is not found at all in the Mid-Atlantic area and according to local builders it is because it doesn't stand up to the moist weather in this area, in fact it has to be specially ordered if you want it at all. With that in mind I would be carefull about using it too extensively until there are some long term success stories.

TheHuff · #**238** 12/13/2006, 03:46 PM

I understand that muriatic acid will lower the PH, but will it speed up the time it takes to cure the rocks? That is my question, i have seen many people suggest it to speed up the process, however no one ever returns with results. Does anyone know if it will in fact speed up the process?

RandyStacyE · #**239** 12/13/2006, 04:22 PM

Just to hopefully gain more exposure on the question "How to speed up the curing process" I started a thread in the 'chemistry forum'.

Here's the link:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=994015

Hopefully someone there will be able to help out.

Travis L. Stevens · #**240** 12/13/2006, 04:33 PM

Randy, I've basically already asked this question in multiple ways. Here is the thread that answers it the best:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=954722

pito · #**241** 12/13/2006, 06:07 PM

I just got back from HD with a 96lb bag of Quickcrete portland type1 and two 40lb or 50lb bags of salt. I'm hopeing to get started this weekend. I'll post in my own thread and post a link here.

pito · #**242** 12/13/2006, 06:12 PM

I was gonna go with the stucco mix at first. So, I asked Randy in the Chemistry forum what he thought about Sakrete stucco/mortar mix and gray surface bonding cement being reef safe and his quote is below. I just could'nt find the stuff around here.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Once cured and very extensively rinsed so that it no longer raises the pH substantially, it is likely as acceptable as most artificial rock mixtures made from cement, and likely will not cause problems.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

pito · #**243** 12/13/2006, 10:58 PM

Anyone ever use dirt or top soil to mold their rocks?

Rhodophyta · #**244** 12/13/2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheHuff
I understand that muriatic acid will lower the PH, but will it speed up the time it takes to cure the rocks? That is my question, i have seen many people suggest it to speed up the process, however no one ever returns with results. Does anyone know if it will in fact speed up the process?

You don't want to clean or neutralize the rocks with muriatic acid until they have finished setting, hydrating, curing, whatever you want to call the process of permanently incorporating water into the molecular structure of the rock. If you do it too soon, it would be like sanding between paint coats and you sanded too soon while the paint was still wet. The pH is going to be sky high if you are impatient.

lildraken · #**245** 12/14/2006, 01:44 AM

I noticed when you add vinegar to the curing water, it slightly changes the color of the rock, I guess because it's eating up the calcareous deposits on the surface of the rock.

I don't know much about chemistry, but how does making the the water more acidic speed up the rate of hydration in cement? To me it's like turning up the air conditioner to put out the fireplace. no matter how cold you make the room, the wood still will not burn any faster. maybe my logic if flawed.

normal hydration is CaSi + H2O --> CaOH + CaSi H2O
throw acetic acid into the mix and it will react with CaOH to form calcium acetate. adding yeast to for CO2 will react with CaOH to form Calcium Carbonate... but how will that expedite CaSi reacting with Water? We're only treating the biproducts of the reaction and not the reaction itself.

according to www.cement.org/basics

"The rate of hardening depends upon the composition and fineness of the cement, the mix proportions, and the moisture and temperature conditions. Most of the hydration and strength gain take place within the first month of concrete's life cycle, but hydration continues at a slower rate for many years. Concrete continues to get stronger as it gets older."

pito · #**246** 12/14/2006, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pito
Anyone ever use dirt or top soil to mold their rocks?

C'mon guys. I don't have a job til Monday and would love to get started on this.

Travis L. Stevens · #**247** 12/14/2006, 10:48 AM

I wouldn't even think of it! You never know what heavy metals, pesticides, etc are in it. Your best bet is to mold in sand or salt.

RandyStacyE · #**248** 12/14/2006, 10:53 AM

lildraken,
I was thinking along the similar lines. I have no idea if acid will help the rock cure faster or not. It’s possible that the rock will just have to do its thing but ya never know unless ya try it I guess. Then again you did try it when you used vinegar … in a way. How long were you treating the water?

The deal with adding vinegar to bring down the ph is identical to adding acid, only if I’m not mistaken; I believe a gallon of Muriatic acid is cheaper by volume and much stronger. Acid can be diluted because it has a bit lower ph.

Here is a chart to compare the ph of different substances:

pito · #**249** 12/14/2006, 10:54 AM

Thanks Travis. I did'nt think of that. One more question before I get started. Do you think I could use paper or paper towels to create tunnels and what not? I'd remove them before placeing rock in water, but if anything does get stuck in there, it'll desolve in the water wont it?

Travis L. Stevens · #**250** 12/14/2006, 11:01 AM

If you're using the Salt:Cement ratio, then pile a handful of salt in it to make a tunnel and then build the cement around it. This is especially useful if your forming a mold in salt. And at the end of it all, it completely dissolves out and you won't have to worry about unwanted materials.