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Old 10/05/2001, 10:32 AM   #26
Fredfish
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Liquidshaneo
“I believe Morgan said something about the need for the ATS screen to be surged back and forth “


The idea is to have the water from the surge device surge over the algae screen instead of doing it by dump.


Mark
“Fred, Looks good to me. But why not put the algae inside the surge device? That would save space and plumbing”


It would save space and plumbing, but would it give enough water velocity over the algae? When the ATS info was up at Inland, they mentioned something about needing enough water velocity to remove waste from immediately around the algae. If the velocity is too low, a thin boundary layer of water forms around each strand of algae. Waste products build up in this boundary layer and this interferes with the nutrient exchange process. I wanted to make sure there was enough water velocity to avoid this.

Eric
“Fred, it would work, but the turfs that you want to promote seem to do best in that intertidal area - like where waves hit a rocky shore. “


What if I angle the screen so that part of it is under water, but most of it is at and above the low water line? I could also set the screen on an angled piece of glass so that the water flows over the screen.

Hmm... If I built the container that holds the screen so that it angles up and away from the surge, the water from the surge would run up the screen and then back down. It might take a little fiddling to get the angle right, but this would probably work.

Eric. Does it matter how much time the algae spends below the water and how much time it is immersed? I can also fiddle with the drain rate into the sump to adjust the submersed/immersed time.

Fred.


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Old 10/05/2001, 11:22 AM   #27
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Hey Mark, that looks like ca-ca,

Interesting point, Fred, on the volume of water, flowing over the alage. A point, I will keep in mind.

Eric, I feed 5 times a day now. I think its normal.


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Old 10/05/2001, 01:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Hey Mark, that looks like ca-ca,
Smelled like it too, when I first got it!


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Old 10/05/2001, 05:21 PM   #29
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Mark:

No, those are the long filamentous turfs - they are efficient, but a PITA. The turfs I am talking about that become the climax community are short short short....like artificial turf short at their longest. those are the ones you want. If you see them start to develop, work extra hard to prune away the longer types at their borders and help them fill in....you'll be happy you did.

Shane:

Turf algaes are far far far more efficient than macroalgae. Its hard to say what outcompete means, though. They will outstrip nutrients, but they are also tasty and well grazed and macroalgae are well defended via calcium or chemicals...so macroalgae probably wouldn't outcompete them spatially, but would in terms of nutrient limitation. Macroalgae are not really that good at nutrient assimilation - I mean, they are good - better than a mangrove or seagrass, but less than turfs, and probably less than a lot of corals and sponges. I'm sure thats a case by case basis, but the point is that macroalgae outcompete corals in nutrient rich environments, but corals outcompete macroalgae in nutrient low waters....you see? So, are corals then more efficient? Furthermore, if one assumes the ridiculously low nutrient levels in ATS systems, you would be dealing with those same nutrient low conditions. Also, grazing is a huge giant factor in it all.


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Old 10/05/2001, 10:29 PM   #30
Mark
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Quote:
Mark:
No, those are the long filamentous turfs - they are efficient, but a PITA. The turfs I am talking about that become the climax community are short short short....like artificial turf short at their longest. those are the ones you want. If you see them start to develop, work extra hard to prune away the longer types at their borders and help them fill in....you'll be happy you did.
Ah, I see. Thank you. Since this system is in other ways fairly low maintenance, I will be quite diligent in trying to culture the short turfy stuff.

Btw, your description regarding nutrient competition with macroalgae was excellent. It's funny how so many people on this board and others preach the use of Caulerpa as a form of nutrient export. This includes me. But yet, algae turfs are so much more competitive/productive at assimilating undesirable nutrients. It's a bit surprising the ATS hasn't already caught on. I mean, look at protein skimmer trends. reefers are constantly driven to develop more powerful skimmers like the bullet, and we constantly thrive for more powerful lights(both, imho being counterproductive to some degree). With all these desires to go for bigger,better, more powerful; Why not go for the most productive algae? I consider the ATS to be the supercharged algae export. Plus, it's efficiency benefits the reefer by needing less surface area to get the job done. What I mean by that is, you'd have to have a fairly large sump full of Caulerpa to get the equivalent productivity of a small turf screen.

The only aspects that I can think of why Caulerpa is still the favored choice is that:

1. It's much easier to throw a light over your sump and dump some Caulerpa in, than incorporate an intertidal system to encourage Turfs to grow.

2. Most of us realize the benefit of a refugium. By setting up a separate tank or sump to grow Caulerpa, we not only establish a form of algal export but also the benefits of a refugium.


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Old 10/06/2001, 06:04 AM   #31
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What else could I possibly add to that? Exactly.


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Old 10/06/2001, 06:50 AM   #32
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The thing is, I found no benefit what-so -ever, in running a 55 gal. sump/deep sandbed/calerpa, on my 170. It runs better/as good, with a normal sump, and my Euroreef.

I figure the sandbed in the tank is enough by itself. The sump/refugium was also a pain in the backside. After the calerpa finally crashed, I just ran the sandbed, sometimes with the skimmer, sometimes without.

Any life produced by the sandbed and/or refugium, had to go through the main line Iwaki pump, never mind, skimmers and powerheads, to be of any benift to the tank. So, this concept for me, was just a filter, doing the same job as running my efficient skimmer.

Now with a scrubber, sitting on top, its a total different concept. Much better use of turf alages, no sumps, no large pumps and the one feeding the filter, will be before it and not after. Of course the downsize, is the cost of an ATS.


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Old 10/06/2001, 04:53 PM   #33
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Hi

A very interesting thread. I have read the article by Eric in a friends magazine when it came out, does anybody have a copy they could email me?? as I cant find the magazine and I would really like to read it again (assuming Eric doesnt mind??).

I have always thought about installing a screen into a small carlson surge bucket, if setup for a fast surge then conditions inside the bucket/container would be similar to a dump bucket but without the moving parts, hopefully encouraging the same sort or algae growth as seen in regular dump bucket scrubbers.




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Old 10/06/2001, 09:47 PM   #34
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Shane...I had a 20 gallon surge device in a Sterlite tub. I put a piece of eggcrate covered with finerglass window screen in at an angle just like your drawing. I put a LOA 27 watt PC fixture right over it. I let it run for many many months and all it ever grew was cyno.


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Old 10/06/2001, 09:51 PM   #35
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Snailman, did you ever try buying a section of Morgan's screen for your surged screen? Maybe that would have sped things along?

So Doug, when do you anticipate having the ATS250 up and running on your system? And do you have any pictures of it by any chance (other than the cracked end)? I'd love to see it.

Shane



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Old 10/07/2001, 06:41 AM   #36
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I did not buy a seed screen because an unnamed marine biologist that has an ATS was going to send me one. I waited and waitied and waited and finally took the surge device down to replace it with one in a 44 gallon Rubbermaid Brute trash can. I am still tweekeing it. All that was on it was cyno, coralline and Aiptasia.


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Old 10/07/2001, 02:51 PM   #37
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Whoa, whoa, whoa guys; first I get convinced to finally put a refugium on my tank and now THIS?!? Are we talking about the old Six n' One Half Thing, Winter's Coming So I Gotta Diddle With The Tank Thing, or This Is The Real Thing?


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Old 10/07/2001, 03:33 PM   #38
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This is a fancy $800 refugia full of algae.


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Old 10/07/2001, 07:43 PM   #39
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Hi I am new to this board, it is great to finally read a positive thread about algal turf scrubbers.
I built one 8 years ago using the basic description and photos in Dynamic Aquaria vol 1 and it has been in service since. I basically let it seed itself from the tank ()nobody in Sydney Australia to buy seeded mats from) which took about 4 weeks. Dr. Adey covers the issue of surging versus no surging over the algal mat, and basically says that he had tried both and found creating a surge over the mat promoted faster algal growth.

Hopefully now people may take interest in non-traumatic pumps as well. Plankton friendly arguements aside, non-traumatic pumps have other benefits as well. Most non-traumatic pump designs are based on positive displacement pumps ( eg. piston, diaphragm or screw pumps), all which can maintain flow rates as head increases.
I built myself a version of Dr Adey's motorised bilge pump (Dr. Adey was quite helpful) and was able to mount the pump above my light hood and get it to suck the water from my sump (a distance of about 2m ) and pump it into the tank and still maintain a flow rate equal to the Quiet One pump in replaced. The other big benefit was water was pumped into the tank in wave like surges.


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Old 10/07/2001, 09:04 PM   #40
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Please let us know when your web site is working because I would love to see your pump and ats.


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Old 10/08/2001, 03:40 AM   #41
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Try the site now, I recently changed web servers and some of the links were stuffed. I have only posted information on the pump I made. I should hopefully have some info on the ATS soon, just need to borrow a digital camera.


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Old 10/08/2001, 07:56 AM   #42
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Hi caevan.

Shane, I will not set it up until I find out about the insurance claims.

Here is a pic of the unit before.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg scrubber3.jpg (12.8 KB, 437 views)
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Old 10/08/2001, 08:47 AM   #43
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I recently got a call from a local college regarding their skimmer, the person maintaining the tank wasn't sure it was working properly. It was an Oceanic 75 reef, lightly stocked, with an ATS. The skimmer in question was an amiricle cc that hadn't had the skimmer cup emptied in 1.5 years. The airstone was only extended 1" into the water column . So essentially the ATS was the only mechanical filtration. Although the tank was mediocre, what struck me was the health of three organisms. A green open brain that was easily 12" across, an anemone I couldn't identify that had moved to directly under the surge and looked great, and a flame scallop that was absolutely gorgeous. The scallop had been in the tank when the current caretaker took over the tank 1.5 years ago!! I have to suspect the ATS had something to do with the scallops health in spite of their known difficulty.

fwiw,
Agu


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Old 10/08/2001, 08:55 AM   #44
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Hey Agu,

If the skimmer cup hadn't been emptied in over a year, I wonder how often the screen has been scraped/rinsed in FW. I suspect the tank would be in even better shape if the ATS was maintained properly.


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Old 10/08/2001, 09:26 AM   #45
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Doug: How much does that ATS250 weigh when running? That looks seriously kewl. I can't wait for you to get that thing up and running.

Eric: What volume of food were you feeding per time you fed your tank when you were feeding heavy?

Mark: How's the seed screen coming along on your ATS100?

Thanks!

Shane
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Old 10/08/2001, 09:30 AM   #46
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The seed screen is still alive and kicking, which is good. But it doesn't seem to be spreading. Then again, I installed it last Thursday, and it hasn't even been a week. Can you tell that I'm impatient?


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Old 10/08/2001, 01:53 PM   #47
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Mark,

The skimmer cup wasn't emptied because there was no skimmate. He mentioned that students are taught to maintain the tank, so you're probably right about the screen. I'll go check it out again, but as I recall it looked like plain old hair algae on the screen.

Agu


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Old 10/08/2001, 02:45 PM   #48
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FWIW, hair algae (i.e. Bryopsis) is one of the turf algaes that Adey lists will grow in his ATS according to his patents (which I'm reading thru this week -- all 5 of them).

Oh, in case any of you would like to read any of Adey's patents:
  • 4,333,263
    4,966,096
    5,097,795
    5,851,398
    5,715,774

here's how to do it. BTW...this method will show you the full scanned in patent and not the cheezy HTML patent text only.

First off, go to: http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html and click on "How to Access Full-Page Images" which will take you to: http://www.uspto.gov/patft/images.htm There it explains how to view images in your browser as the full patents are scanned in in TIFF format using CCITT Group 4 compression which IE does not support without a specific browser plugin. To view the scanned in patents, you will need to install the AlternaTIFF IE plugin for your particular version of IE: http://www.alternatiff.com/. When I installed AlternaTIFF, I had to check the box during the install to have it modify my Windows Registry to make it work properly otherwise it didn't work. Depending on your version of IE, you may have to select a specific version of AlternaTIFF.

Once you have AlternaTIFF installed, go back to http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html and click on "Patent Number Search". Next, enter a patent number you want to view (such as 4,333,263). Once the search function finds the patent, click on the linked patent number which will take you to the html patent text. Now for the meat and potatoes option...

Up at the top of the page, there are a bunch of different buttons in blue. One of those buttons says "IMAGES". Click it. Now you have the full patent at your finger tips. The down side is you cannot save the entire patent at once. You have to save each page individually in .tif format. To scan thru all of the pages, on the left hand side of the page are some yellow arrows. Use the arrows to page thru the patent.

To view the .tif's I used Paint Shop Pro v.5. I'm sure there are plenty of graphics programs out there that will view .tif's, so choose your favorite program and have fun.

Have fun!

Shane
(aka "liquid")



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Old 10/08/2001, 05:48 PM   #49
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Question Hate to ask the NUB questions but...

I'd like to get a better handle on what you guys are kicking around here.

First, the real newbie question: In referene to E. Borneman's article on algae turf scrubbers, what is the article name an what does the anacronism "TFH" stand for?

Second, can anyone recommend W. Adey's book "Dynamic Aquaria" as a good reference for the home aquarist, or is this more of an academic work?

E. Borneman: Does the ATS do anything to remove the toxins produced by some coral and plants that you talk about in your (excellent) book "Aquarium Corals"? How does it compare to a long-contact CC skimmer for this, or is dilution the only real solution?

Mark: what is that material that you have your algae mat tied to and where did you get it?

Thanks.


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Old 10/08/2001, 08:22 PM   #50
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TFH stands for Tropical Fish Hobbyist, which is an aquarium hobby magazine. The month and year of the magazine which the article is published in is listed above.

Dynamic Aquaria is IMHO a book that should belong in each aquarist's library. Even if one doesn't ever use an Algae Turf Scrubber, the book offers a good introduction into ecosystem dynamics, trophic structures, and other important biological concepts. More importantly, he explains how these concepts apply or play out within a captive system, such as an aquarium.

I'm not sure how much Eric has looked into the efficiency of an ATS or skimmer in terms of removing toxic compounds, but he did mention in his article that he had success growing Acropora and other 'sps' corals in close proximity to Softies. So one could presume these toxins are being taken care of somewhere, or perhaps the softies became accustomed to the presence of other stonies and reduced the amount of these compounds produced. I'll let Eric elaborate here since it was his tank.

As for the turf screen, it appears to be a plastic mat with holes in it. Kinda like plastic window screening, except the size of these holes wouldn't keep any bugs out. there are two layers of this material. HTH

Shane,

Thanks for the links.


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