Crystal Seas salt causing bleaching

[Reefer2]

I did a 6G water change using Crystal Seas Marinemix (with dechlorinator) in my 90G, and noticed bleaching on some of my corals. A 7 head torch and all my Green Frilly mushrooms lost their zoox. My LTA seems to have lightened up, but is otherwise healthy. Many other corals have not shown any affect at all. The salt mix was brought to temp and salinity and left to mix for 3 days with a powerhead before the change. The water remained cloudy in the bucket but did not cause the tank to get cloudy.

I originally thought this was caused by the dechlorinator since I used RODI water to make the mix, but I just read another thread where someone had a similiar problem.

Is this happening to anyone else? Is there anything that I should be doing now?

[Peabody]

Tagging along. I just did a water change today with the bioassay for the first time.....hope nothing goes wrong

I saw your post and the other fellows. Sorry for your bleaching incident, hope it was an isolated incident and wasn't because of the salt!

BTW - Dr. Ron is gone till Tuesday. He might not see this post when he gets back (read his sticky post)

[G-money]

Wow! 6gal on a 90?

I did 30 on a 90 and had about 1/3 of mine bleach, but man...that's crazy. Guess we need to rework the "slow transition" hypothesis, eh?

This is really troubling.

[iceman16238]

Sounds horrible.

[NVHS Tank]

Dr. Rons great salt. I saw another thread that pointed out some major problems with it. Like it may not be the great thing Dr. Ron's research showed it to be. There were some flaws to the proccess of his study and it has been over debated. Maybe now we are seeing the results of a real world study of Marine mix. Also Dr. Ron's project was studying sea Urchins and not corals. I am a little concerned that so many threw away their old salts that had been working and jumped on a band wagon. The beauty of this site is all of us can be trying different things and seeing the results if we are all clones what is the point. I am curious what happens with those of you who made the switch as compared to those that don't.

[iceman16238]

Originally posted by NVHS Tank
Dr. Rons great salt. I saw another thread that pointed out some major problems with it. Like it may not be the great thing Dr. Ron's research showed it to be. There were some flaws to the proccess of his study and it has been over debated. Maybe now we are seeing the results of a real world study of Marine mix. Also Dr. Ron's project was studying sea Urchins and not corals. I am a little concerned that so many threw away their old salts that had been working and jumped on a band wagon. The beauty of this site is all of us can be trying different things and seeing the results if we are all clones what is the point. I am curious what happens with those of you who made the switch as compared to those that don't.

Hold on a second here partner. I beleive that his tests still are not flawed and are true.
Graham,
Like somebody said in another post, maybe your corals bleached due to the lights. If you keep corals in dirty water(just saying for example) for a week, then put that coral in crystal clear water, the clarity will allow more light through the water and in result it will bleach the corals. Did you notice that any shaded corals bleached?

[G-money]

I only switched because I used to use it and thought there was finally some good data...so I switched back.

D'oh!



iceman,

Yes, a shaded colony of zooanthids bleached. A mostly shaded Pavona bleached. In fact, most all of the corals under the most intense light did not bleach. One colony of purple M.digitata bleached, while another colony of the same coral did not .

I run carbon 24/7. No "visible" change in light penetration or water clarity for that matter. I have acclimated corals to a slew of different lighting conditions much more drastic than anything that was happening after my water change (as far as I can tell)...unless it dramatically affected some nonvisible portion of the spectrum immensely...we can all speculate, but none of us know. All I know is that it was a result of the water change with that salt. That is the only known fact. And it is a fact.

[Reefer2]

I'd like to go on record as saying that I appreciate Dr. Ron's work on this salt project. One thing that can't be debated is the fact that it's got us all to think more about the quality of the ASW that we're putting in our tanks. I'm glad to see other testing is being done as a result. The hobby will benefit. Good work Doc!

That said, I knew being one of the first to switch carried some risk, and I'm OK with that. I'm thinking it's probably best to just leave things alone for a bit and see if the corals get their zoox back.

But what caused the bleaching Is it a sign of stress or are the corals adjusting to the change? What's the way out if other corals start to bleach?

If you've tried this salt, PLEASE reply with your results.

[NVHS Tank]

I want to clarify that RC resident chemist has been running a thread that looks at the possibility that Dr. Rons assay may have flaws in the logic. I also want to point out that I made the statement that I curious as to everyone results with the switch since I do not plan on switching anytime soon. I have also read a on a site stating that Marinemix has problems with getting a consistent batch. I wonder if you are getting a bleaching problem from product out of the same lot or not. Dr. Ron only used one box of the product so did not test different batches. Look for lot numbers and lets see if they are the same.

[NVHS Tank]

Oops I also want to add that Dr. Ron has been a huge help to my own tanks and is why I have followed this so closely

[Kara]

I inadvertently have been using Crystal Sea salt for about a month now. Before that, I'm not sure what kind of salt it was (I was given a huge bucket of salt with the tank) My LFS reccomended Crystal Sea as 'the best', so I bought it.

I do 20% waterchanges every other week on both of my tanks using the Crystal Sea salt mix (with dechlorinator). I haven't had any problems with this mix... in fact since I've switched, my pulsating xenia is growing like a madman as where before, it was only doing ok.

I'm sorry your corals bleached. I would be really upset if that happened in my tank.

You think it might be something like a bad batch of salt? I checked the box, and I can't find anything that might be a a lot or batch number.

[saltshop]

Originally posted by Graham
Wow! 6gal on a 90?

I did 30 on a 90 and had about 1/3 of mine bleach, but man...that's crazy. Guess we need to rework the "slow transition" hypothesis, eh?

This is really troubling.

Ditto...eek. The 30% change I could see...but less than 10%? Actually got some of the salt yesterday as it was less expensive than my current salt method of getting low metals. I have a whole other catastrophy to deal with first though...

[bookfish]

Given the complexity of chemical/physiological reaction and adaptations in coral, many of which are not understood,and...
given the complexity of making asw mixes (are there any that agree on the "right" level of "trace elements", let alone which are important?) I am not surprised that even small water changes with a different salt mix would produce dramatic results.
To all who had bad experiences, my sympathies.-Jim

[Kara]

I had a thought this morning while drinking my coffee; If you are using RO/RODI, maybe your filters are going? Maybe it's not the salt? I don't know if that would cause the bleaching but it may be possible? I know it's almost time to change my filters so that started me thinking.

At least you know I'm thinking about your problem and trying to help resolve it!

[Reefer2]

Kara - I appreciate your input. My RODI filters are not very old. I'm pretty sure it was the salt that caused it but I still wonder why? My tank is 3 years old and I haven't seen a problem like this before. I originally thought the dechlorinator and RODI water was the problem, but another thread talked about bleaching with the bioassay version.

At the moment I'm not too concerned about my corals. It appears the Torch is getting some of it's zoox back, but the Frilly's have not. My LTA is still lighter in color, and I've got a Sarcophyton that has lightened up. In general most corals have 'pulled' back a little but I don't feel I'm in danger of loosing anything.

I'm going to make up another 6G's tonite with the bioassay version that I also bought. I'll also add an airstone to the mix this time. This should be ready to go by Wednesday.

Dr. Ron - Sorry to start this post while you're away. I didn't see your sticky post until Peabody mentioned it. I'm looking forward to you weighing in here.

[pmrogers]

I did a 10%, 25gal change with Crystal Seas bio assay a week ago and things seem to have reacted badly:

Xenia retracted to nothing overnight for 3 days, now about 70% open

red open brain looked mildly unhappy for 2 days

a few tunicates that were fine for last 6 months died in 3 days

Daisy polyps completely bleached on day 6

5 yr. old sarcophyton bleaching today, 7 days later

Monti digitata and capricornus have not reacted as of yet.

Water params are perfect on ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, alk, Ca. I don't have a copper test.

The salt did not mix up cloudy for me, at least. I didn't really look in the reservoir where it was mixing, though, until it had been running with a powerhead and airstone for 3 days.

[pmrogers]

I've had bleaching as well: Crystal seas salt causing bleaching

[Chicago]

is there anyone out there that started out with this salt and then did a change and had a bleach, i say this because maybe the corals ect are not acclimated to this specific salt.

this maybe a strech but it might be similar to changing dog foods. some dogs when going to a new manufactureer of dog food have problems in the beging getting use to the new food.
the make up of salt water mixes is very complex.

another thought that i remeber. a couple of years ago i posted questions about detritus causing bleaching on my corals. i think it was either here or on reef land. what i noticed was that when i did a water change and cleaned the upper layer of the gravel which was the tecnique back then with phlenums the detritus gut stirred up and every time caused bleaching. IMO, when resting and covering the corals eventhough i blasted them to clean them.

of course this is all opinion. but would like to know if anyone else had a similar event.

[Chicago]

it would also be helpfull if posts included the manner in which the new water was made, the containers, prior events similar to this, the time period the water was oxygenated ect prior to into to the tank,

[ez1ez]

...I did 50 gallons on my 150 and I had some bleaching aas well...BUT... I noticed all my mineral levels were elevated after I added the new salt mix...hmmmm.... I think with high magnesium,stronium, etc...etc.. levels that I stressed out the corals via overdose. My second tank will be done in 5 gallon increments over time with constant monitoring of my levels. Good luck.

[rshimek]

Hi,

Well, any animals accomodated to high levels of the metals in salts would have responses to switches to lower levels. The zoox could also respond, probaby by increasing photosynthesis rates which would be otherwise depressed by high metals levels. This could cause excess oxygen production, and this has been indicated as cause of some bleaching in nature.

I have suggested that folks change the amounts of metals in the systems gradually, but actually haven't don't this myself. I did a 50 percent water change (added bioassay salt to a tank hitherto running only IO) and saw no effects one way or the other. However, I don't have any stony corals in the system (it is a tank largely set up to house anemones and soft corals). Nevertheless, it would probably be prudent to gradually change the water.

NVHS,

As far as Marinemix not having a constant batch... that is simply false. This salt has been marketed for years to laboratories running toxicity testing and, in fact is s recommended by the EPA for that process. For this reommendation to occur the salt has to be of the highest purity and consistency. The levels of metals have to be constant or they interfere with the tests.

Furthermore, yes, my tests used urchin larvae - specifically because they are more sensitive in the short run than are corals. This is also standard practice in testing toxicity. There have been plenty of tests showing that corals are sensitive to metals toxicity at levels far lower than we have had in our tanks.

Finally, while I have seen many logic flaws in the on-line discussions of the test results, there were none in either the test protocols, execution, and write up.

[NVHS Tank]

What salts is everyone switching from? Dr. Ron mentions switching from IO with no adverse effects, those with bleaching what were you using?

[Peabody]

I'm switching from IO. No problems for me yet, but I'm taking it very slowly.

[Mojoreef]

Finally, while I have seen many logic flaws in the on-line discussions of the test results, there were none in either the test protocols, execution, and write up.

Here is a study done by a govermental agency for basically the same thing. I thought the conclution was interesting. Heres a quote

"Caution should be exercised when interpreting sediment toxicity data obtained from test organisms that are highly sensitive to ammonia."

"The high sensitivity of sea urchin embryos is likely to result in interferences when testing interstitial water samples."

Knowledge of the un-ionized ammonia concentration and sensitivity of the test organism is essential for evaluating sediment toxicity results."

Here is a a link to the study
SCBPP survey

[rshimek]

Hi,

You will note in my study that I did not spefically say what caused the mortality. My test only proved that there was some mortality and that it was consistent with heavy metals concentrations.

It would be interesting to find out if some salts are so poorly formulated that they produce toxic amounts of ammonia as well as containing toxic amounts of metals.

After that is determined, then somebody can plan experiments to show which of these sets of poisons kills the animals more quickly or more efficiently.

However, in either case, the salts are toxic. And interestingly enough, I don't believe they indicate anywhere on any label that they should be mixed and let stand for a day, month, year, decade, century, or millenium to allow the ammonia, if present, to bleed off.