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#226
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All questions need to be answered, just the same. I hope everyone understands that I DO NOT KNOW IT ALL HERE!!! I will know enough by Christmas, when my 200-300 gal. tank goes in. ReefClown, our replies have "passed during typing". This happens fairly often. Consider my last post, I wrote it before I saw "your last", so it is not "in response". I am a slow typer. I have to leave right now, not enough time to really respond, I will read, consider, evaluate and respond, possibly by tommorow. Thanks for joining us here, learning is the goal. > barryhc
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#227
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Hey! I finished roughing out my grid tonight! Now I just need to put my drill press together that showed up today and make some holes!
You gotta love Amazon. A 95 lb. drill press. It qualified for free shipping because of the price and they lived up to it. Delivery to my porch, absolutely free! Quote:
The probe can be taken in and out with minimal disturbance of the bed. As for the micro plenum water sampler, I don't see what benefit you gain over just testing the waste water. I was thinking that some sort of probe might give you a idea of when you need to waste before you suck water out. If you used a controller with the probe you might be able to automate the whole thing. Happy weekend!
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--Andy "And chase the frothy bubbles, / While the world is full of troubles. . . ." --W. B. Yeats |
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Hi Barry,
You asked a while ago if I had put a carbon cap on the collection pipe. Unfortunately, I am in the planning stages and will be there for quite some time. The discussion on testing the effluent is interesting. Your idea of taking water from different parts of the plenum to see what happens after a draw is an excellent idea. Am I off-base for thinking that testing for phosphate in the effluent will tell the story? I was thinking that once consistent phosphate readings were achieved, a balance had been struck and the sand bed could last indefinitely. Or am I all wet? I also wonder if a less scientific test of the effluent would be useful. Like maybe get a vial of effluent and check it for color against a color chart. Maybe even notice if the smell is different. Anyway, I find this thread very interesting and now I will go back to the lurking mode. Joe |
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Been thing about the 'pull' mechanism, and thought about an old reverse flow sand filter design from Frank De Graaf in the 70's that could be adapted to provide a simpler mechanism.
here's a sketch of an adaption. It removes the need for a manifold and should allow for an even pull through the sediment bed. The pull pipe can be placed at any depth and simply tapped. any thoughts?
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just maybe.. |
#230
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This idea is not for the average installation of one of these systems, but is instead, only for me to learn about what is going on for both my, and everyone's benefit. Having one probe mounted in a fashion similar to what you propose, for the pupose of automation, may be a good idea, if we can find a probe that will last long enough, when continuously submerged. Thanks, > barryhc
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#231
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Last I remember, we had "no-stink", and adjustable automated volume, "on the cheap" and easy. Quote:
I am very much in the planning stages for my "big tank". You needn't "lurk" so deeply, come up for "oxygen" more often! > barryhc
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#232
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Thanks all. >barryhc ooPS: I haven't had time to review on bacteria, but it remains my highest interest, along now, with post installation "testing".
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#233
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Sediment composition aside, would it be fair to say that:
A plenum in it's basic mechanical sense in an undergravel filter with a broken airlift? A wasting plenum is akin to an undergravel filter whereby the passing of water through the sediment bed is "controlled and wasted" rather than continuous and recycled ? If 1.the screen and sediment composition is as you propose in your current design, 2.the plenum void space is also the same, then the shown diagram simply equates to replacing the manifold with a tap, right ? I'm trying to get my head around how adding a manifold improves the dynamics of waste extraction and can't quite grasp it at this moment. Am I missing something fundamental ?
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just maybe.. |
#234
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Actually, having a plenum void space around the manifold might be the best best. There'd be no sand around the manifold to impede the draw. That said, I don't think I'll bother, for reasons stated farther up the discussion.
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--Andy "And chase the frothy bubbles, / While the world is full of troubles. . . ." --W. B. Yeats |
#235
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If you will review the previous post carefully, you will see that I explained how this restriction could be designed into the system that you offered, and that it could be made to work in this way. It could possibly, even be a better design, in the end, IF restriction is utilized with high flow, and short duration, to achieve "flow balancing". Else-wise, "channeling" will occur, and "control" over the bacteria populations will be lost. I hope this helps, I'm still trying to keep up with the bacteria discussion that got "dropped", from a few posts ago. > barryhc
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#236
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ReefClown, I have finally gotten around to reviewing your information on "bio-film thicknesss".
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I did not think that you were questioning my understanding of distances, I was questioning yours. Quote:
Let's start. I think that the point that is being made, about the bio-film, is that the surface of the "bio-film" is aerobic to begin with, such as would be the case, where algae on a surface, feed nutrients to the aerobic bacteria at the surface of the bio-film, which nutrients are then processed by the aerobic bacteria, into "food-stuffs" for the bacterialogical populations that are "deeper in" the bio-film. I think that this MAY BE more predominant, in thicker bio-films, that are being fed with "solids", and less likely in "thinner populations that recieve their food from dissolved nutrients. Especially so, where these bacteria live in a "zone", that is not entirely "stagnant". I don't believe in allowing detritus, fish poop, etc. , to collect at the substrate surface, and it does not occur in my current tank. So, I have not been looking at this system having to deal with high loads of undissolved solids, but more on the basis of dissolved nutrients, that are "common" to the water column, as a whole. I think in terms of the "lower denominator", I have been thinking in terms of bacterial "films", if you like, that are as thin as 5 microns, or 5 µm, in the "Aerobic" upper layer of the substrate. I suspect that these "upper bacterial populations" would remain "thinner", because the water is not being allowed to become stagnant. This would only be true, of course, for the "High Frequency" type of plenum wasting. I further suspect, that these "films" could become somewhat thicker, deeper in the bed, in the "Anaerobic zone" ( below 1-2" ) because "upward diffusion" is probably less predominant in this area, and is partially responsible for the "sinking" that is so commonly referred to in "DSB discussions". How is that for a "restart" on bacterial discussion? > barryhc
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#237
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Ok, for those who might "pop-in" here, and can't deal with reading the whole thread, which is getting lengthy, and for any who might have forgotten the emphasis of this endeavor, I am including an excerpt from another discussion, that offers a reasonably short summary, of at least my own objectives.
Here you go. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The idea of a biofilm protecting the anaerobes is an intriguing one--but if these are strict anaerobes, to which oxygen is toxic, the biofilm will gradually erode as the uppermost layers are exposed to oxygen and die and decay away. Of course if we are dealing with "facultative anaerobes" this is not the case because these bacteria can live with or without oxygen. Being as no one has a great idea of what bacteria are at work here I would hesitate myself to make a statement about the effects of drawing oxygen through the "anoxic layer". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I absolutely ABHORE the idea of drawing oxygenated water through the "Anoxic-zone" ( no oxygen ). In fact, if oxygenated water is drawn through the "no-oxygen" zone, then it isn't "Anoxic" anymore, is it? Sounds like a bad idea. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And if you have some sand stirrers they will perform this job sufficiently. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good idea, I agree. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Another thing to consider--in all of these proposed systems there is live rock being incorporated, am I correct? In that case, you really can't measure the actual effects of drawing water through the sand bed because in essence the LR is performing the same function. If the sytem works, is it because of or in spite of the plenum wasting? The only way to know for sure is to include no rock in the system at all. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think that is true. In my particular case, the plenum was installed about 5 mos. ago, but I have not drawn any water from it yet. My Nitrate has varied from as high as 80ppm down to 1ppm, but is now at about 5ppm. Phosphate has been as low as .5ppm, but is now at 1.5ppm. I have kept a rather steady ( and high ) bio-load for several months now. If the "wasting" is able to improve Nitrate processing over a "standard plenum", then that effect will be observed over a period of time, by checking Nitrate in the "water column", after wasting begins, and continues. Phosphate export is "almost guaranteed" to occur ( or be monitored )by way of it's presence in "the effluent". Quote:
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The primary reason for plenum wasting, is to "avoid the crash". The secondary reason for plenum wasting is to achieve improved Nitrate processing. >> >>>>The reason for having substrate, is "FOR THE CRITTERS THAT REQUIRE IT!!! . . . . NOT for "processing ". >> I hope this is helpful, > barryhc
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#238
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So, by testing the water you wind up pulling out from down there, you ought to have a pretty good idea of what frequent wasting is doing for you. And as for me, the less frequent waster, I always expect the water will be disgusting....
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--Andy "And chase the frothy bubbles, / While the world is full of troubles. . . ." --W. B. Yeats |
#239
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I still think having a drain with a DSB is way more complicated than having a drain with an SSB - and having the DSB external to the display (such as in fuge or even Calfo-style bucket), or even not having a DSB at all if you have sufficient live rock to do all the denitrification.
I am not bashing anyones' attempts to get a drain to work with DSB, just remarking that it gets very complicated trying to maintain the anaerobic layer, and worrying about how much, how often, whether you are hurting the anaerobes, etc. IMO, much easier to keep the DSB external (or not use one), and use the drain on the SSB to keep it from filling with gunk. If you keep the DSB external, you don't have to worry about your display crashing, and can change the DSB out easily.
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Greg Visit our CTARS club website by clicking the 'red house' icon above :) |
#240
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--Andy "And chase the frothy bubbles, / While the world is full of troubles. . . ." --W. B. Yeats |
#241
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We're really planning here for the post-4 to 5 year mark where it's said that some sand beds have trouble. I don't want that to happen to me. So I'm trying to plan for it....
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--Andy "And chase the frothy bubbles, / While the world is full of troubles. . . ." --W. B. Yeats |
#242
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"Fish", in as much as you insist on being a "lowly" infrequent flyer . . er . . . waster . . . er, well, whatever, You are obviously a man after my own heart. Thanks, so much. > barryhc
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#243
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Thanks for the love. I'm in work hell and really procrastinating at the moment....
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--Andy "And chase the frothy bubbles, / While the world is full of troubles. . . ." --W. B. Yeats |
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Hell, I'm in "work heaven", are you looking for a career change?
> barryhc
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#245
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Actually, my only employees are myself and my lovely bride. She's sick today, so I'm putting out her fires, too. Sigh.... We're just about to the end of our busy season, though.
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--Andy "And chase the frothy bubbles, / While the world is full of troubles. . . ." --W. B. Yeats |
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I have myself and my son ( just recently with my son ), "wife" handles "paper" mostly at night or on weekends. Had a bunch of "gorrilas" years ago, gave up for a while on gorillas, and just ran by myself. Were "firing up" again now with my son "on board", and were going to start with chimpanzees this time.
Gotta run. good night. > barryhc
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#247
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You can easily keep a system stocked with corals and few yards of fish using the proven methods, BB, DBS,e.tc. Now if the challenge was to continually up the fish stocking level to the capabilities of the system then some play is required. The wasting plenum is just another idea to play with, sadistic maybe, but an idea to play with none the less Just be kinda interesting to see what kinda mileage/flexibility it could provide in the handling of P and N. Quote:
But for when the neurons kick in, are you planning to control/alter the depth of all 3 sediment zones or just the aerobic and anaerobic. Why play with 2, when there are 3?
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just maybe.. |
#248
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Of course, we don't want to forget the "nasties" that go "down the drain", instead of back up into the water column "eventually-maybe". ( The "forever-sand-bed"! ) Quote:
Get those neurons "firing" again. > barryhc
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The average person has only one breast, one testicle, and one brain. Most people who enter the reefkeeping hobby aren't average. Black and white don't exist, only "shades of gray"! |
#249
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This is a good thread. I hope we can keep it going for years and years, because we're going to need to. Speaking of long threads, timewise that is, I wonder what the longest running thread that stayed active is on reef Central.? Thanks for all the interesting reading and links. I can hardly wait to see results from water that was drawn from the plenum. Thanks again.
Joe |
#250
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Hey barryhc! I wonder if I could ask your advice. I roughed out the manifold. I've just finished setting up my drill press. I'm ready to drill the siphon holes. What size holes do you think I should drill?
The tank is 4' x 2' - 4" or so in depth to make room for the overflows. The manifold is a basic rectangle, with crosses every 4.5" or so. That means I can only fit in a couple of holes per piece of pvc (in between the crosses). Thanks! Andy
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--Andy "And chase the frothy bubbles, / While the world is full of troubles. . . ." --W. B. Yeats |
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