Any interest in organizing?

David M · #1 12/14/2006, 01:37 PM

This is a response I just sent to a fellow RC'r interested in creating a website specifically aimed at providing public access to captive bred marine ornamentals.

Please read it and comment, especially letting us know if you would paricipate in something like this. - D

"As for a site I dunno, there is already a forum on RC for selling cb fish but you mostly see corals on there. There is a similar forum on seahorse.org that gets a lot of action. I'm sure there are others too. If you have the time/ skill/ dedication to do something I think a site that organized the garage and basement breeders across the country would be more valuable. It could serve individuals as well as lfs everywhere, listing breeders, locations, species offered and contact info. It would let you know whether the breeder sells directly to the public or is wholesale only. It would tell you if shipping is an option or if it's pick-up/ delivery only. It could reference minimums if applicable. Basically I'm picturing a template type profile for each breeder. You could finance it by charging a minimal fee to the breeder for the listing. An add placed in a few key trade magazines like FAMA and TFH would alert both the public at large and store owners of the resource as well as entice more breeders to participate. Or it could just list the breeders with links to their own e-mail or website for all those details mentioned above. I would persue something like this myself but don't have the time or skills required. First you'd want to get some idea how many breeders are out there, that is the big unknown. I'll bet there are lots of small scale hobby breeders that simply serve a local market. Some of them may be inspired to expand if they thought there was a resource like the site I'm talking about. The very first thing I would do is spend time on every marine aquaria board I could find to get an idea of how many breeders there may be.

Let me know if you are actually considering something like this and I'll help as much as I can."

David M · #2 12/14/2006, 01:48 PM

There seem to be a number of people interested here but the thread seems to have died:

http://www.rareclownfish.com/forums/...read.php?t=245

mwp · #3 12/14/2006, 02:31 PM

David, it's an interesting concept. A national, or international, organization specifically for marine FISH and INVERT breeders (sorry, fragging corals just isn't even close to the same thing).

The Breeder's Registry is the closest thing that already exists...my gripe there is that it seems very poorly run (i.e. I submitted reports for Apogon leptacanthus months ago...where are they?)

Anyway, while I'm not much of a joiner (hiding my Trout Unlimited and Rod Builder's Guild memberships as I type this) there really is a need for a central repository of all ornamental captive breeding efforts online...free to contribute and utlize. The closest thing I've found to that right now are a handful of incomplete websites, and the FBF here is actually probably the best current knowledge base online to date...if only you didn't have to wait until 2:00 AM to use the GD SEARCH!

Matt

Kathy55g · #4 12/14/2006, 02:34 PM

There is a site on RC for selling cb corals, but if you are a business they will not like to have you sell fish there.

I think this forum idea is a good one, or at least a website to let fish buyers know that local breeders exist. Education is a good thing, but I primarily am interested if there will be the ability to sell my fish as well.

mwp · #5 12/14/2006, 02:45 PM

So something like MAC for Marine Breeders? I wonder if there's anything on the FW side of things to model this after...i.e. I can think of BAP programs in FW clubs, and organizations like the ACA (American Cichlid Association) that hold auctions. Our local cichlid club (GCCA) holds 1 or 2 big auctions, as well as I think having auctions at every meeting, but ALSO holds a SWAP (like a flea market for fish) a couple times per year.

I only see occasional offerings of CB marines from private individuals on sites like eBay and Aquabid. The selling forum here is just far too much all jumbled together.

What about Frags.org - they actually have a pretty good system going...I've met a few people, buying and selling, through that website (which is run by Kent I believe). It's free, it's sole purpose to promote the private fragging of corals. Shops do post stuff there too, but MOSTLY it's private folk looking to trade and sell.

HMM.

Matt

mwp · #6 12/14/2006, 02:47 PM

BTW, I see where the need arises for something like this...at the moment I'm "ready" to take "pre-orders" on my GBG babies, yet the only place I've mentioned it is in the breeding log here! The selling forum here is a waste of time...the next best place I've though to promote my fish to a LOCAL audience while not wholesaling them to the LFS's (not that I don't want to sell them fish, but I need to make a retail-level sale price on these guys is possible)....well I've thought about posting a message in the CMAS forum here to reach Chicago-area folk..

Matt

David M · #7 12/14/2006, 03:35 PM

Kathy- of course it will help you sell fish, that is the point. It's just a way of uniting the demand with the production. Not a discussion forum, just a list basically of breeders, locations and contact info. If someone wanted to make it fancier than that there could be articles and info about cb vrs wc and such. There could be a reference section for would be breeders (links to sites like this, books available, etc). I really don't care how far it gets into all that, what I'm basically after is a catalog of small scale local breeders and some basic info about them. Mostly contact info.

In my case I can't really offer fish direct to the public and sell to stores at the same time in the same area, that just isn't right

But I could say "wholesale only" in So Cal and then open it up to out of state lfs, clubs and group buys, basically anyone willing to pay the shipping.

I'm not saying I am going to do this, I lack the time and skills required. But I have been chatting with a fellow who is interested in setting it up so I'm just trying to get some input for him.

Matt- BR is RIP... as far as I can tell anyway

David M · #8 12/14/2006, 03:38 PM

Matt- it's not about joining anything, I'm not suggesting anyone has to do anything. Just wondering if you'd want to be listed/ profiled on a site like this?

mwp · #9 12/14/2006, 03:58 PM

Yup!

Baalz · #10 12/14/2006, 04:04 PM

Unless your selling clowns as a business, it may be unwise to have yourself listed.

Just something to think about.

Kathy55g · #11 12/14/2006, 04:54 PM

List me, please!

mwp · #12 12/14/2006, 05:04 PM

Baalz, why would it be "unwise" to list private individuals who are casually breeding?

Matt

Kmiec123 · #13 12/14/2006, 05:12 PM

David, sounds good to me, although I don't know much and my production isn't all that great right now..Always still learning. Not sure with all the unlisted folk, I would think the deductions could be good. Not sure how secretive people in the same area might want too be, I think it could only help...just some thoughts...Carl

Kmiec123 · #14 12/14/2006, 05:14 PM

I guess people get paranoid Matt, My accountant dos't think much of that hiding think

Baalz · #15 12/14/2006, 05:21 PM

Ive known the IRS to go after people for less.
Paranoia I guess

FishGuttz · #16 12/14/2006, 05:21 PM

I like the site http://frags.org/search.php a similar search engine for CB fish would be great!

mwp · #17 12/14/2006, 05:28 PM

Baalz, if ANY of us were actually MAKING money at this, it'd be a different story. Bring on the IRS...I'll open up my bank acount, show them all the Drs. Foster and Smith Transactions (lets not even start with the LFS's, Nanocustoms adn other vendors), make fish breeding a business and shazam...I'll never owe the government a cent again...that's about where my "profit/loss" statement would be for the year.

Same with my Fly Fishing Guiding...TRANSPORTATION ALONE kills every last dime of what I "make" on the deal. Besides, last time I checked, we're you allowed to sell 2k a year of personal whatever with no reporting requirements? Otherwise, I think everyone has to start reporting the $50 they made at their last garage sales...

Of course, it's anyone's preference whether to be listed on such a website or not. Besides, just because someone is advertising fish for sale doesn't mean they actually are SELLING any

Matt

mwp · #18 12/14/2006, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FishGuttz
I like the site http://frags.org/search.php a similar search engine for CB fish would be great!

That, and perhaps a resource section of articles / breeding reports similar to the apparently "defunct" Breeder's Registry, updated for the 2000's....

Matt

MimicTang · #19 12/14/2006, 11:51 PM

It would be best to make an umbrella corp to represent us all. The LFS location could be matched with breeder location by state and all packages would come from one company. Someone would have to handle orders, complaints, shorts, and DOAs and you would need to represent the LFSs in your area to keep them happy, honest ( shorts) and buying. Would make more sense to have 1 person/s send you your orders to fill for the day especially if you also work. Foods and supplies could also be bought at cost in most cases. However not sure if you'd have to be employees as you'd "belong" to the company or they could be gifted to you?

Perhaps whoever manages would also get a small commission for handling all the LFS questions, problems, and supplies. Percentage of the order?

Fedex, UPS, and DHL accounts are simple enough to setup. If someone has to double ship ie. David only has Oscellaris and Kathy only had B&Ws the shipping cost you charge the LFS would more then cover two boxes. All online mechants make a profit off the shipping usually. You would all be able to use prepaid shipping.

You provide your daily stock and the "management" acts as a clearing house for your "stock" and deals with your LFSs cuz they wont care if your work a job, as they need something to sell asap.

If anyone whats to get more serious I'd be happy to look into it more?

MimicTang · #20 12/14/2006, 11:54 PM

Also if you did centralize the IRS is gonna get wind of your capitals gains and might come knocking on your door in April.

mwp · #21 12/15/2006, 01:39 AM

I'd go for a less formal / central approach more like Frags.org...the mission is not for the "organization" to handle monies etc., but rather just to provide a "one stop shop" where people can make connections, or did I totally miss something?

Matt

MimicTang · #22 12/15/2006, 01:41 AM

I dont know that most LFSs have internet access. They usually get a fax every couple days with the wholesaler's inventory.

mwp · #23 12/15/2006, 02:00 AM

Well, the 2 LFS's that I most frequent are actually online 24/7 right at the front counter, and I can think of at least a few more that are as well (i.e. the last one I worked at, all the importing from Bali was arranged online via emails). You are correct in so much that LFS's do rely more on weekly instock lists from suppliers coming by fax (or some by email).

Of course, there are two main ways LFS's find out about sources. Either the source seeks the shops out (i.e. coldcalling) or the shop seeks out the source (typically through trade journal listings / directories). Of course, look at a site like Frags.org and you'll understand that there is potentially a HUGE "market" out there in direct & local sales & trades too. I.e. I have no interest selling my 14 available (6 now spoken for) GBG's at a wholesale level to a shop....not enough money in it to make it worthwhile considering a YEAR of failed breeding efforts. I'd be much more interested in selling the few fish I have to other breeders and hobbyists than taking them to the shop to sell them at less than $10 each. For now, my avenues to reach the local individuals I want to sell to are eBay, Aquabid, and forums, as well as digging through emails and PMs to see if there's anyone who expressed an interest that I haven't yet talked to.

Selling small batches of fish out directly to fellow hobbyists, you can still actually get a retail level price for CB marines...can't say the same for most any FW fish...hobbyist to hobbyist prices are now often lower than wholesale (as a shop manager I literally used to clean up at the Cichlid auctions...i.e. getting several bags of fish that might have a wholesale value of $20 for only a buck!). The advantage of not selling to LFS's, but seaking out hobbyist connections, is that it at least makes breeding and rearing marines a "LESS LOSING" proposition, especially with a tiny batch of fish. It'll be a different story if I have a few hundred Onyx Percs to move, but on batches I and III, only 3 remaining in each batch, why part with those for $10-$20 a shot when I can find the handful of folks who are willing to give me $40-70 each?

I guess what I'm getting at is that it isn't just LFS's who buy CB marine fish, in fact until more hobbyists are willing to spend the cash, or WC fish keep going up in price and reducing in selection/availability the LFS's could kinda care less (as a general concept, forgive those LFS's that "DO" care).

One other way a simple open forum along the lines of Frags.org could benefit is to facilitate TRADES between small-time breeders and basement businesses. I.e...David has Fire Clowns, more than he can move, and Joe has Clarkii, more than he can move. I smell a swap in the works, that ultimately benefits both breeders by increasing selection (and thus interest and ultimately revenues) for small time operations. Or for that matter, maybe David wants to put Onyx clowns on his list...maybe he finds me and I'm willing to work something out for a couple dozen rather than flood my very limited local market...maybe he has a spare pair of something breeding that I don't...I smell a trade....

I guess the biggest thing is that the more "exchange" of both knowledge and actual CB marine fish, the better off everyone can be. That should be the main goal of any such organization / website.

Matt

mwp · #24 12/15/2006, 02:05 AM

BTW, I think one of the big reasons that sites like eBay and Frags.org (2 very different beasts) is that they are there to facilitate but are not actually involved in various transactions. Both communities set the basic groundrules, but it's up to the individuals to make things happen (or not happen). Both systems rely on user feedback as a basic guideline for parties involved in a transaction. eBay isn't free, Frags.org obviously IS. I wouldn't want some umbrella organization collecting my cash, arranging my shipments of fish, taking a slice of my pie etc...that's for ME, the seller to do. I'd want something that facilitates connections, not an actual middleman or dropshipping transshipper (which is basically what Mimic described).

Matt

mwp · #25 12/15/2006, 02:24 AM

So now, as I finally sit down to peruse the other thread going on Rareclownfish.com...here's some thoughts.

1. The fact that an organization tries to limit competition between breeders, i.e. designating that certain species can be shipped, while others can't, is very anti-free market! Afterall, breeders obtain rare stock to help sell the run of the mill stock...telling me I can ship my latz anywhere but my onyx percs can't leave the midwest is beyond wrong...and probably illegal to boot!

2. I mentioned earlier that I'm a member of the "Rod Builder's Guild". Actually, I'm more than just a member, I'm a Certified Professional Rod Builder (took a written essay certification test among other things). MAC certifies it's members, but I'm not really sure how such an organization can certify individual hobby breeders all around the globe...but it IS an interesting concept.

In any case, in look at a truly similar organization (The Rod Builder's Guild) they face many of the same challenges...how do you convince someone that a $300 custom built fly rod is any better than the same thing factory built for $200 (especially when it comes with a better warranty). I'd have to be honest to say that the organization seems to fall short on this one. However, they do act as some authority that helps a small time guy like myself have some credibility vs. just a fly-by-night dude building fishin' poles! However, the big thing that this organization does is help members connect with each other, share information, and help the newbs that join up to spread and advance the activity of custom (fishing) rod building. They hold a few events around the country each year as well. In many respects, the ACA is coming back to mind as well.

It seems the guys at Rareclownfish.com were ready to plunge headfirst without bothering to check the depth of the pool. There's a LOT of similar organizations trying to acheive similar goals in other fields and a lot of good ideas that can be borrowed and built on.

Time for bed

Matt