Lineage - Definition, Discussion & Debate

[MUCHO REEF]

What is LINEAGE and what does it mean to you?

How important is it?

( Definitions )

1. Descent group that can demonstrate their common descent from an apical ancestor

2. Descent in a line from a common progenitor

3. Any continuous line of descent; any series of organisms connected by reproduction by parent of offspring

4. An evolutionary lineage (also called a clade) is composed of species, taxa, or individuals that are related by descent from a common ancestor
.
5. Blood line, bloodline, ancestry, pedigree, stemma, line of descent, parentage, blood, origin, descent, stock, line.


This topic is currently being discussed in the "PPE" thread. I didn't want to take that thread further off topic, so I decided to start
this one. I'd say for the past year or so, the importance of knowing the Lineage of a specific Zoanthid, Palythoa or Proto Palythoa is of great concern to some reefers. It has been argued/discussed that it is best to know who the corals came from as a means to authenticate what it truly is, what its appearance will be once it settles into your system and to insure that you are paying a fair price for said coral.

Some believe it is of the utmost importance, others feel it's simply a waste of time. Some say it is best to know, others say, just buy what you like and like what you buy.

With that, lets talk about this potentially heated topic that I know will remain civil. We may not all agree, but we can at least agree to disagree.


Mucho Reef

[geoxman]

1
2
3
4
5
all=Zero

I am not some newbie and I have morphed many of polyps from "a" to "b" it is not rocket science and they take on a coloration because of their environment-what ever that might be. I could care less if my blues came from Tubbs or Crockett-or if my PPE came from Perun or the Sheb Wooley. They are given names to polyps and not scientific.

I am listening to the "Cure, Mixed Up" at the moment so I am very easy going. Fascination Street is the song at present?! Happy reefing

[geoxman]

It is very melodic.

[buttons buster]

lineage isn't that important to me, but is deal breakers for others.


That's why I like to know where pieces come from just in case of possible trades.



Plus with lineage there is no suck thing as "false" advertisement.


It sort of like if I sold you a generic soda instead of the "real" deal.

Some people just like security.

[Agu]

Although I'm not a regular here I'll play. My qualification is a 5 year old zoanthid dominated 10 gallon tank with at least a dozen different zoanthid color morphs. My claim to fame is a large colony of what people refer to as "Eagle Eyes" that grew from three or four polyps before the morph even had a name. Actually these are the ultra rare Eagle Eyes with tentacles that exceed 3/8".

I think lineage only benefits the owner and early buyers of the original colony,giving false legitimacy and marketing clout.

Obviously I'm in this group,

just buy what you like and like what you buy.

[geoxman]

AHHH. A mod that makes sense! I am JK of course, but you do make sense!

[Agu]

AHHH. A mod that makes sense!

I resemble that remark I hope .

Recently picked up blue, red, and pink zoa frags from a local reefer. I have no idea of the lineage or brand names. It doesn't enhance my appreciation of the corals.


BTW, I didn't buy or swap for them. Had some LPS and acan frags and gave them away gratis. What goes around comes around.

[flyyyguy]

ill play as well.

what lineage means to me is nothing more than resale value.

before you scowl in disgust let me explain. I am not a long time zoa addict like many of you here. In fact I have only really been into these things since my double tank crash this summe, and the 20 or so morphs I had at the time were pretty much the only thing that survived. Since then I have become as big of an addict as anybody and LOVE new morphs. I cant get enough of them. I dont care if its famous or not...if it looks sweet to me it is sweet and I want some. Many of the named ones with proven lineage are just worth more, and by propogating them I can sell them for more so I can buy.......MORE

sps is still my priority and will most likely always be......but I cant foresee a time in which I wont be keeping these incredible colored polyps in the lower parts of my reefs.

[MUCHO REEF]

Just my opinion and I force it on no one.

I've been reefing for about 16 plus years. I think 14 of that is in Zoanthid and Palythoas collecting, propagating and outright giving frags away. I use to sell frags all over the country from 2001 to 2006 for $ 15 to $ 20 per frag, but I soon stopped. That's right, just 2 years ago, you could buy an entire colony for what 1 or 2 polyps cost today. I don't care how blue, red, yellow, speckled or rainbowed they were, you could buy an entire colony for $ 25 to $ 60 depending on the size of the rock. Do you know why I stopped selling? When more reefers were concerned with names, lineage and the dramatic price hikes that came along with it, I decided the real focus was no longer on true reefing. By that I mean, husbandry, bio diversity, water chemistry, creative aquascaping most conducive for coral growth and so much more.

Two years ago, I never heard the word lineage being mentioned as it relates to zoanthids and palythoas. I have never asked nor will I ever ask about lineage when purchasing polyps, I don't knock anyone who does, I just don't bother. I take great pride in studying the characteristics of a polyp and remembering what to look for and not who had it first and if they were the first to obtain it. If I find something extremely stunning in a LFS, the last thing I'm going to inquire about is lineage. In my opinion, lineage is important for only two things, resale credibility and resale value as the reefer mentioned above. This craze of attaching a person's name to a polyp is completely out of hand IMHO. Joe's PPV's, Skip Jack's HMO's and the like is not proof of lineage. I have seen polyps that have been named and ownership taken, and they are the exact same polyps that I have had for many years before names were mainstream or before they were even named. As stated above, I can take a polyp, which someone can prove its lineage, and place it in a completely different system than it has acclimated to, and I can change the appearance of that polyp and sometimes specks or other pigments can/will appear/disappear. The polyp has now changed in appearance, but its lineage has remained the same. The same holds true for photographing a polyp. I can change the lighting and completely alter the appearance of a polyp, yet the lineage stays the same yet the polyp is different.

I have the craziest most stunning big deep bright blue palys that I have ever seen. People drop their jaw when they see them. I have never seen them anywhere that I have looked, and I check weekly. I was offered money you wouldn't believe for them. I'm talking some very big money that a certain orange paly fetches, but I turned down the offer. Nothing is worth that much. Since I'm not into names, and I'm not knocking anyone who is, I'd be a fool to think or say that I am the only one who has them and I dare not name them Mucho's Blue Dragons or something.

In my opinion, and my opinion alone, lineage is a complete waste of time, again, just my opinion. I have spoken with young reefers who can tell me where every single polyp in their system came from, the name and what they can sell them for. What troubles me the most, is many of them didn't know what cyano was. They didn't know Hypersalinity from Hyposalinity. They had hundreds if not thousands of dollars in polyps, but didn't own a single test kit. They couldn't explain why their zoas and plays kept dying, only to go out and buy more to keep up with what everyone else was buying. Yet they knew every name, lineage and price of every polyp they owned.

Longevity in this hobby is achieved with reefing because it's fun, relaxing, enjoyable and fulfilling. This is done by listening, reading, learning, asking questions and giving back. If someone enjoys the knowledge of lineage, I'm NOT going to bash them for it. There is simply far more important things for me to be concerned with if one wants to develop a blue thumb in reefing.



Mucho Reef

[Marko9]

Mucho, I love the way you talk man. It seems like over the last year, if it does not have a name then it is not a nice coral. Also, if it doesn't have a name, then I must name it so I can sell it. For me, this is a hobby; and I will never come close to making even 1/20th of the money that I have willingly spent for my visual enjoyment.

Saying that, I am a collector of SPS and I can see a difference because if two pieces that look similar grow together have different DNA strands, the most of the time they will fight.

There are some "rarer" pieces of every collctable coral out there. It is usually the nice colored ones that have eye appeal. If you name a brown SPS, the LE Brown turd, I would not even think about tracking it down.

As for being new in this forum, I have some of the nice collectable palys and zoanthids that are out there, but that is because I like the way they look in my tank. That is it.

[Lotus99]

I'm pretty new to reefing, and I've read a lot of threads in this forum over the last few months.

Sure, some of those pictures people post are amazing. But some of the cost of polyps is also incredible.

Back in August I was at a frag swap, and bought some Dragon's Armor for more than I care to say. I was swept up in the zoa mania. I have to say, I really like these palys, and I like the way they eat and look (and grow). Perhaps next time I'm at a frag swap I won't be so crazy!

I think the only "named" zoa I'm currently interested in is the Tubs Blue, simply because I hear it doesn't fade out under different lighting. I think that's an admirable quality in a zoa.

Other than that, if I think they look super nice, I may pay more.

A name is just a label. I dislike labels in my life, and would rather go with something of some intrinsic or aesthetic value.

[delsol650]

I think the lineage thing is WILD coral , which have been worked on for years to grow real well in personal aquaria and have good genes.. basically becomes a well known piece that grows real well and don't have problems growing in any tank...

compared to some/most wild caught coral, that some don't live long in tanks since its not used to personal aquaria... since they're wild there not accustomed to out of the wild so survivablity might not be high compared to those of LINEAGE pieces that have been grown in the aquaria and thrive....

this goes more for SPS, but people put it on Zoa's as well...

[MUCHO REEF]

I hear you Delsol650, and you are correct my friend as it relates to the lineage with wild caught sps, but I never heard of lineage as it relates to zoanthids until recently which coincided with the price rise.

I am a Marketing major and lineage is nothing more than another means of extracting the most money from a sale/resale. Here's a good question for everyone to think about. If the price of zoas and palys never rose above what they were 2 years ago, I mean, the ability to buy an entire colony for the price of one polyp today, would anyone on earth be concerned about lineage? The answer would be a resounding no. Lineage helps one to recoup their investment from a purchase via a sale/resale. Some will say, "Mucho, what is so wrong with making a few dollars to support the cost of running their systems?". I say, nothing is wrong with that at all, just don't disguise those profits with a marketing tool - Lineage, to make outrageous profits.

I really miss the old days.

Mucho Reef

[angry.clownfish]

Just wanted to say that this has been an awesome read.

Thanks!

[Flybynight]

I have not even thought about Lineage till I got Ppe. The only reason I got them is because I wanted to be part of why they became well known in the first place. They became big from a act of love IMO. I take a lot of pride in keeping my tank well keep.

About the same time as the PPE I called one of my zoas Dragon eyes. I looked on Zoaid.com and seen they looked nothing like Dragon eyes. I sold them less than $1 a poylp to make some money to buy other stuff for my tank. When I seen that they where not dragon eyes and they looked more like Blow Pops. I was conserned that someone would come back and say I lied. For these many reason I think Lineage is important. There is alot of benifits from know it. When a name is put on a zoa it is easy to research. You dont just have to look up red and green zoa. You can type in the name. Make sure the name = the ID and from there research what is the best conditions to have them in. Also, If I am goin to spend big money on a zoa I want to know where it came from.
To tell you the truth, (in most cases) if someone buys a zoa they like they are happy to have it. BUT, (in most cases) if a person buys a zoa with a known high price and a very good Blood Line. There is that bit of pride along with the coral. When you walk up to your tank to admire your hard work. The coral with the history, rareness, or price tag for some is going to be the one you look at first/most. I like the ideal of higher prices for rare, or more gorgeous corals. It gives most people a goal to assend to. Most people do not start off with a 500 gallon reef tank. They work their way up through swaping, trading, or just pay the cash. I think it should be the same for rare, or sought after corals.

To me Lineage is becoming more and more important because of the benefits of knowing it. (example) Solomon Island zoas are known as harder to keep than most. If you know where it came from (lineage) that could be a desiding factor in getting it or not.

If I would have known more about the lineage I would have not taken a the word of someone trying to sale me a elgance. I LOVED IT but it died in 4 months after getting it. Come to find out (this is hear say) they are collected from deeper waters now. So for whatever reason (correct me if I am wrong) they are much more difficult to keep now. If I would have research Lineage I would have asked the right questions. Not just questions about what light sorce, what to feed it, and so on. I would have asked, where did it come from? How long had it been in his tank? Is this his first one he has cared for. Where was it collected from?

So, IMO lineage is important for many reasons. Some people use it for a profit. Some people use it for knowledge. The question is, What will you use it for?

[chadfarmer]

i say do what makes you happy

i have lineage of my good stuff but i have corals that i have bought from the local fish store ----(which is better than most linage and cheaper)

[flyyyguy]

Originally posted by Flybynight
I called one of my zoas Dragon eyes. I looked on Zoaid.com and seen they looked nothing like Dragon eyes. I sold them less than $1 a poylp to make some money to buy other stuff for my tank. When I seen that they where not dragon eyes and they looked more like Blow Pops. I was conserned that someone would come back and say I lied.

things morph in different lighting. things morph in different systems. As long as you post a good pic, a description of the lights you took it under, dont photochop it to exaggerate the colors, and dont call it TRUE, you can call it anything you want.

Im not saying to intentionally misname polyps........but just do the best you can as far as identifying, treat buyers the way you would like to be treated, and thats all you can do.

I mean seriously.......if you look at the pics on zoaID, and understand that things change, there are several polyps that are exactly the same with different names several times over. Everywhere you look where polyps are sold things are misidentified all over the place. Does that mean that all of these people misidentifying polyps are dishonest and tryintg to scam???

I surely hope not. Otherwise I would fall into that dishonest category as I dont know for a fact that way more than half of my polyps are really what I refer to them as.

OPne thing I do like to do, especially when selling a poly that is a similar morph to something that clearly IS a higher end polyp, but i know mine is just a similar morph.......it throw the word "wannabe" in front of it. then there is no doubt you are trying to sell it as something it is not, but that doesnt take away from the fact that it can be a really nice polyp

[delsol650]

YEah, lineage is more for SPS and similar type coral.... what IMO has kinda ruined the ZOA/PALY collection has been the ABSURD naming thing on zoaid. which makes a polyp no bigger than an eraser cost 50-60. and things like the envy orange cost 600 ???
Does a funky name justify charging other 5x the amount you originally paid for it?

I think the primary role of zoaid was to show what zoa/palys are out there, the differences in morphs etc... but a LOT of people got into this naming craze that people are naming the same polyps diffent names to get more $$$$$$$ and use zoaid as a reason to charge more.... I just think if it looks pretty to you, and you like it , buy it

the closest thing I could think of which lineage would have some take regarding zoas/palys are when a similar looking polyp is called (Example ) AOG, but arent... reason cause AOGs that were original brought in and raised through out the generations have been bred to keep their superbright colors no matter what aquaria conditions there are.. OR someone finds a bluish type zoa and tries to market it as a tubsblue but dosn't hold the blue nor color pops as the original polyp really does.. Trust me Ive seen it a bunch of times where some 1 says its this and that but after a few months that piece dosnt end up looking like what its supposed to be, dosn't survive the aquaria compared to a lineage piece thats been raised in the aquaria for a couple of coral generations. I hope this makes sense guys/gals...

I hope this dosn't rub others the wrong way, its just a fellow reefers opinion... as I am tired of seeing crazy names and ludicris prices being tagged on these coral. ANd they charge by the polyp and a lot of times give you a MINIMUM amount that you have to buy just to be able to get it...

I just go by looks and brightness...

[flyyyguy]

oops.

[MUCHO REEF]

I hear you loud and clear Flybynight.


When I speak of lineage, I'm not speaking of origin in the wild, meaning the general location from which the polyp came. The lineage I'm speaking of, is who, (the reefer), of which the polyp came from. This is what reefers are concerned with. By that I mean, Peter Polyp posted a bunch of great pictures of his purple palys for all to see, then sold some of those Purple Palys to Red Reefer for $ 50 a polyp. Then Red Reefer posted tons of pictures and they became very popular as well. Now Blue ZoaKeeper wants some, but he wants to be sure they came from Peter Polyp so he can sell them later for $ 50 a polyp too, or more, so Blue Zoakeeper tries to prove to Red Reefer that the Purple Palys are the real deal because they came from Peter Polyp because he was the first one to have them, supposedly, and so on and so on. The problem is this, if the polyps cost $ 2 or $ 3 a piece, no on would bother to even ask about lineage ( who had them first), but when Peter Polyp sold his polyps to Red Reefer for $ 50 a polyp, the next guy wants to be sure they are the ones originally puffed up in the first place so he can get $ 50 etc etc etc. This is where and when lineage is discussed. In fact, it really isn't lineage at all since it's not necessarily the polyp that's being traced/tracked, it's the original owner who priced them as high as they are. Everyone wants to know if they came from Peter Polyp so they too can demand the premium price. It's as simple as that.

Regarding names, I'm not into them, but a lot of people are, and that's fine. For 14 plus years, I sold and purchased am awful lot of polyps, over 300, and not once, never, prior to 2005 did anyone concerned themselves with names. There's a reasons for names, I won't touch on that topic here.

Bloodline to me, is like lineage. If a reefer really wants to get to know what he or she is buying, just study the characteristics of what you are looking for. It is so easy to spot a knock off of the purple plays we speak of with a look-a-like. I know what color the oral disc should be, I know what shape and color the oral opening should be, I know the color and shape of the skirts. One doesn't need to know lineage to know that what they got is exactly what they wanted or searched for. I mean no offense at all to anyone, just explaining my position/opinion.

" I like the ideal of higher prices for rare, or more gorgeous corals. It gives most people a goal to assend to. "

Trust me my friend, I have found some of the most beautiful unnamed colonies, not frags over the years, and I paid $ 30 and $ 40 for the entire colony. All I do is look and hunt, and I always find something new. Prices are assigned to everything that is purchased. It doesn't necessarily mean it's worth it, it's just what's being charged.

I hope the day comes, when we get back to buying what one likes, instead and having to have what everyone else has. I have seen so many tanks where Reefer A's tank looks exactly like Reefer B's tank. Where is the individualism? There are thousands, literally thousands of polyps out there, don't limit yourselves to what is popular or has a name.

This is a hobby that is individualized. We all take from it what we want, if some like names, lineage etc, well, I agree with Chadfarmer, " just do what makes you happy ".
And we can all still be friends.

Mucho Reef

[delsol650]

NIce Mucho... I just picked me up some nice looking zoos an hour ago.. NO name, just looks pretty.. lime colored with yellow... paid only 30 for it for the colony.

[MUCHO REEF]

Congrats my friend, glad to hear it.


Mucho

[Marko9]

Hi, my name is Peter Polyp and I can vouch for Red Reefer as he got them from me

Very nice Mooch. Like many have said, it is a personal thing. Just look at the ID forum. It has nothing to do with scientific names, but if it has a man given name.

[flyyyguy]

Originally posted by delsol650


I hope this dosn't rub others the wrong way, its just a fellow reefers opinion... as I am tired of seeing crazy names and ludicris prices being tagged on these coral. ANd they charge by the polyp and a lot of times give you a MINIMUM amount that you have to buy just to be able to get it...

I hate the minimum polyp thing too. I have no problem paying good money for something that is truly a nice addition to my collection, but when it costs a disgusting amount of money, I would much rather buy one, maybe two polyps and grow it out myself. There are a handful of polyps that come to mind that I have had loaded in my shopping cart online and didnt end up pulling the trigger on just for that very reason.

[DaveJ]

I'll bite.... if you don't want to pay the money, then lineage doesn't amount to squat. As you have pointed out, things change and turn into new morphs on a continual basis. However, if I see a morph I want, I will plunk down the change to get it because in the long run the time and effort it takes to get some of the very unique variations cheaply or via swap/trade costs me more in the long run. Part of the enjoyment I get out things is the growing and expansion of my frags/colonies so getting a few and letting them grow doesn't bother me at all. Occasionally I will have some die on me, I can't seem to keep Red Wines at all for example, but others thrive like my PPE's and NG's and PD's etc. In the long run, only the people buying things and then growing them out will have an impact on the market price. If you flood the market, eventually things will come back down. Its up the consumer to figure out what he can afford or not. If you are truly into reefing for the enjoyment and not for the wow factor, then there are TONS of very affordable variations out there, just don't buy what you can't afford.