Help! I cant keep anything alive in my nano!

Shadow Tempter · #1 01/04/2005, 02:13 AM

I set up a 7g nano about 3 months ago and when it finished cycling, I added a hairy mushroom and 2 clown gobies (water parameters were all good), 3 days later...the hairy mushroom turned to jelly and one goby is dead! I waited a week and tested the water which was all good, so I added a small clean up crew (2 dwarf red legged hermits, 2 tiny astereas and 2 bb's) and a fire shrimp since I was starting to get some film on the glass...the next day...my snails were dead and so was the fire shrimp! 2 weeks later same thing, I added a couple of cerith snails , a cleaner shrimp and tiny toadstool leather...dead the next day (toadstool not opening up)...and now the goby doesn't look too well....and the water is still showing no detectable signs of ammonia, nitrite & nitrate.

I do a 20-30% water change every week, switched to the mini penguin after the mushrooms turned to mush.

What am I doing wrong? I have an established 65g euphyllia and zoo tank...and I'm following what I did there when I first set it up...but for some reason, I cant seem to keep snails & shrimps or any animal alive in that nano.

If anyone can help, please chime in....

bradbury · #2 01/04/2005, 02:27 AM

water paramaters are off balance is my guess. may need different, more, or better equipment

weimluv1 · #3 01/04/2005, 02:51 AM

hmm

what are all of your water params...ammonia...nitrite...nitrate....pH...alkalinity, water temp....and all that good stuff

how are you acclimating everything?

Shadow Tempter · #4 01/04/2005, 03:10 AM

all the water parameters are good...ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, ph 8.0, alkalinity is at 8 dKH and temp between 74-76....acclimation at about 10-15 min. but then I have to fill the tank up again with new saltwater once I finish acclimating.

Should I take down the tank and start from scratch again? Place the live rock from the nano in the main tank and let it sit for awhile? (althought I'm not sure the lone clown goby would live very long - for some reason, I can't keep small fish in my main tank-they disappear for some reason...but thats another story...I have a coral beauty, diamond watchman goby, 2 saddle backs and 2 anthias)

Shadow Tempter · #5 01/04/2005, 03:17 AM

Something other than the above tests? but what can it be...I use the same exact water as in my big tank...ro/di water & salt.

I recently switched my lighting to a small mini-aqualight to see if the toadstool will open up.

Cosmo^Kramer · #6 01/04/2005, 03:29 AM

Did any copper get in the tank?

Shadow Tempter · #7 01/04/2005, 03:33 AM

That's what I'm thinking but the hermits are still alive ( i dont know if copper will affect the hermit crab) maybe from the fish? some water did get mixed in when i first put the gobies (i got the gobies from a different LFS than the ones usually go to.)

efroggies · #8 01/04/2005, 07:59 AM

Only a 10-15 minute acclimation? I always do at least an hour plus and I have a 10 gallon nano. That short of an acclimation could certainly explain the snails, shrimp and maybe even the mushroom. I don't thnik that taking down the tank will help right now since you aren't sure what is wrong and then you would be adding a unknown problem into you main tank. If you are worried about copper, get a test.

wahshk · #9 01/04/2005, 08:06 AM

Do you have oxygen supply? The temp is a bit low try raise it up to something like 78-80. Do you have PH to move the water around?

nelsen · #10 01/04/2005, 03:21 PM

it could be your water changes also. 20-30% is quite high imo. causes alot of stress on the inhabitants bc of the change in chemistry. i would try 5-10% changes once or twice a week to minimize the impact

aeherold · #11 01/04/2005, 04:09 PM

Acclimation Question Here: ok, so there seems to be quite a range. What is the consensus on acclimation? One article I read said float the bag in the tank 10 minutes for temp, then do mini water changes in teh bag with your own tank water, like 10% every 10 minutes for 100 minutes, then just put the water and fish into the tank. Thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Anne

waterdog1 · #12 01/04/2005, 05:47 PM

Personally If I can help it, I dont like putting LFS water in my tank. I do a temp acclimatization for 30 mins, then I do partial water changes into the bag for 30 mins until my tank water accounts for at least half the water in the bag. Then I try to put the critter in the tank without adding the water from the bag(some critters dont like exposure to air but so far all of mine are just fine).I have a 10g nano and everything I have added has lived. Even my Xenia didnt go through any shock period and started pulsing and opeining up fully the next day. It kind of sounds like a copper contamination, but it could be that some unusual water perameter is off. I guess I have just been lucky?

Shadow Tempter · #13 01/04/2005, 07:41 PM

I'm kinda leaning towards copper also...I've been doing some research and both snails and shrimps are very very sensitive to copper...I need to get a test kit.

Either way, I may just have to start again from scratch on this one...but this time, I'll use some of my main tank's sand and liverock. Thanks guys!!

weimluv1 · #14 01/04/2005, 11:12 PM

what is the pH of your water? Your others are fine, except the temp..(higher temp would be my advice)

i would bet its a combo thing.

Hmm not sure about the whole copper idea. Your tank would probably be crashing if you had copper to kill inverts.

You should be acclimating inverts for 2 hours. They are actually more sensitive to water params than fish are.

Float the bag for 30 minutes. Then, get a generic air tube and tie a knot in it. Start a siphon from your tank to the bag, and drip water into the bag at about 1 drip per second. Do this for 2 hours or so, throwing out the water in the bag as it fills to the top. Use a net to transfer your inhabitants to the tank.

As said above, i would definitely think about doing only 10% water changes weekly. You shouldn't really need to do more than that anyway, you're probably just wasting money doing larger changes, and stressing out your tank.

SHOmuchFUN · #15 01/05/2005, 09:23 AM

I agree on SOME accounts...
I'm also interested in the copper issue. Ask your LFS if the fish you bought from them come from tanks where they use copper. If you had inadvertantly dumped some LFS water that contained copper into a nano, this could be a bit of a problem. Inverts are VERY sensative to copper, especially shrimp.

Raise your temp to near 80

Make sure you have proper circulation and surface agitation.

As far as acclimation goes... I found that the very easiest way to do it is as follows:

1. Get two buckets
2. Put a smaller bucket (a sand pale works well) in the larger one and place the inhabitant back in the pale, open.
3. Get some 1/4" water line (like RODI or icemaker water lines) and a 'John Guest' ball valve and attach it to the 1/4" water line.
4. Start a siphon from your tank in the water line and adjust the ball valve so that you only get a drip every second or so. Drip the tank water into the back that is sitting in your pale and let it overflow into the larger bucket.

Do that for 30 minutes or so (depending on the size of the bag) and you're done. Much easier than tying nots in airline tubing and screwing around with that.

I do disagree that inverts such as snails, etc. are sensative to poor acclimations. I typically don't even acclimate my snails and I don't know that I've ever lost one... Other than a conch...

Carl_in_Florida · #16 01/05/2005, 07:32 PM

I agree that the acclimation is a bit rushed but that is not goint to kill EVERYTHING.

I lean towards some contamination in the tank. Could be some chemical that was in the tank or something like that. Did you get your rock somewhere different or did your sand come from a strange place? It is my guess that your problem is down this road.

There was a guy on one of the boards that had a crash and it turned out that his girlfriend used his water change bucket to wash their dog.

I hope it is something as simple as acclimation or ph, but i doubt it.

Carl

Cosmo^Kramer · #17 01/05/2005, 08:30 PM

I still think it's copper.The store he got the fish from probably treated their tanks for Ick and he got some of the water in his tank.I think we're looking too deep into this

weimluv1 · #18 01/06/2005, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SHOmuchFUN
I agree on SOME accounts...
I do disagree that inverts such as snails, etc. are sensative to poor acclimations. I typically don't even acclimate my snails and I don't know that I've ever lost one... Other than a conch...

Ron Shimek, ReefKeeping Mag, May 2004-

Quote:

Snail tissues often seem to be composed of thin layers of tissue that are very filmy and diaphanous. Consequently, they often suffer significant damage during water changes or during transport from a dealer's to an aquarist's tank. The circulatory system of snails may be very complex (Figure 5), and many of its vessels and channels can rupture under stresses caused by changes in salinity. The vessels in the kidney are numerous and delicate, and may rupture if the animal is not slowly acclimated when being moved from one set of water conditions to another. If the acclimation is too fast, the animal will die in a few minutes to a few weeks. If the snails are drip acclimated, the acclimation time may need to be on the order of five to ten hours for maximal survival.

weimluv1 · #19 01/06/2005, 01:15 AM

Shadow Tempter--

have you tested for copper yet?

SHOmuchFUN · #20 01/06/2005, 08:39 AM

Snail tissues often seem to be composed of thin layers of tissue that are very filmy and diaphanous. Consequently, they often suffer significant damage during water changes or during transport from a dealer's to an aquarist's tank. The circulatory system of snails may be very complex (Figure 5), and many of its vessels and channels can rupture under stresses caused by changes in salinity. The vessels in the kidney are numerous and delicate, and may rupture if the animal is not slowly acclimated when being moved from one set of water conditions to another. If the acclimation is too fast, the animal will die in a few minutes to a few weeks. If the snails are drip acclimated, the acclimation time may need to be on the order of five to ten hours for maximal survival.

Who is this Ron Shimek guy? That's some of the worst persuasive scientific writing I have ever read. I agree to disagree with Mr. Shimek. Either I'm getting super healthy he-man snails, or Mr. Shimek needs to run some labs and test his hypothesis.

DongShenYin · #21 01/06/2005, 02:51 PM

Uh... Dr Ron Shimek is a marine biologist with a PhD... He's written marine books and had articles published in aquarium magazines as well as online.... o,O I assume you were being sarcastic?

SHOmuchFUN · #22 01/06/2005, 03:04 PM

Partially sarcastic...

I still don't acclimate my snails for hours at a time. They've done fine dropping them in the aquarium. Although it may be true, still have some skepticism.

Carl_in_Florida · #23 01/06/2005, 05:32 PM

Will copper kill a goby? I never heard that before.

Carl

Shadow Tempter · #24 01/06/2005, 05:55 PM

Well...I tested for copper...0 and last pH check was at 8.0 (a bit low but I have the same prob with my main tank...I can't seem to get the pH above 8.0-8.1 even with regular additions for buffers..but thats another issue).

I did get the a set of live rock from another fish place that I've never gone into...it could be that too....Also, I noticed that the lamp that came with the nano tank had quite a salt build up that may be contaminating the water.

I recently changed the lighting to the Mini-Aqualight, changed the filter to the Tetra Whisper (since whatever that might be contaminating the water might be in the old filter), removed all the water from the tank...100% water change, took out the rockwork and broke some pieces off, cleaned it cause they were too big to begin with and re-aquascaped the nano. I filled the nano with my main tank water (2days ago)

Last night I placed a small hermit and a small piece of GSP to see if it will open up...so far I see a couple of polyp open up...(btw, all tests were good 0 ammo, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate, 0 phos and pH was at 7.9 so I started dosing with Seachem Reef Buffer)

weimluv1 · #25 01/06/2005, 06:08 PM

well a pH of 8.0 isn't all that bad....when you go below say 7.8 it might become a problem...Most importantly it should be pretty constant.

sheesh hope the redo works for you...I had to do the same thing in August, but we figured out why my tank crashed.

do you check your RO/DI water with a TDS meter?

do you dose anything in your tanks?