Ich treatment for anyone who wants their fish to live

[PhillyD123]

Well perhaps it is the fact that I have a nursing background and am a student of history but the freshwater dip copper and quarntine are not what I would call a good idea. Before medical care was a science, People were bled out whenever sick. This was a very crude attempt to cure any ailment barring blood poisoning. It stressed out the patient and weakened them further. Freshwater dips, Copper treatments and quarantines along with lowering the salinity are all comparable to bleeding someone out. Especially since Ich is usaully brought on by stress. Gee lets stress the fish out more it will get better. Stop one of the stages in the life cycle of Ich and boost the fishes natural immune system. Not a scorched earth/water policy.

[szwab]

If not QT etc, what's a good alternative?

[cayars]

Originally posted by PhillyD123

Well perhaps it is the fact that I have a nursing background and am a student of history but the freshwater dip copper and quarantine are not what I would call a good idea. Before medical care was a science, People were bled out whenever sick. This was a very crude attempt to cure any ailment barring blood poisoning. It stressed out the patient and weakened them further. Freshwater dips, Copper treatments and quarantines along with lowering the salinity are all comparable to bleeding someone out. Especially since Ich is usually brought on by stress. Gee lets stress the fish out more it will get better. Stop one of the stages in the life cycle of Ich and boost the fishes natural immune system. Not a scorched earth/water policy.

I'm quite surprised to read this if you are a nurse.
"Ich is usually brought on by stress" - No it isn't, it is a parasite and is either present or not. There is no in-between.

QTing a fish is done to REMOVE stress NOT TO CAUSE it. Would you rather be able to lay in bed and have your food brought to you when sick or being thrown in with other people who might be healthier then you who get all the food before you can get any. Remember the purpose behind QT is to OBSERVE the fish and to BE ABLE TO CARE FOR IT. This is very hard to do in the main tank. When it is the only fish in the tank you can see how much it eats, you can make sure no other fish attack it, etc...

A fish with ICH is kind of like a person with poison ivy. It feels terrible and you want to scratch it. That's why the fish typically rub up against rock or subtrate. I know if I had poison ivy and could get some relief from the ich I'd dip myself in something for a few minutes if the poison ivy would fall off.

I'll agree with you that I don't like copper treatments or hypo salinity treatments and would consider them "barbaric" or "mideval" in nature. I use a method of no meds but with multiple clean tanks. Every two days the fish is moved from one tank to the other and old tank is drained and cleaned. Do this 4 times for a total of 8 days and all parasites will have dropped off the fish with NO CHANCE of the parasite re attaching.

Carlo

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by cayars
I'll agree with you that I don't like copper treatments or hypo salinity treatments and would consider them "barbaric" or "mideval" in nature. Carlo

Barbaric - Medeval ??

Hypo salinity reduces stress in fish and is also considered effective in eliminating ich. Used by many public aquariums as std QT practice.

Hypo is considered superior to your transfer method because moving fish multiple times between containers is stressful and runs the risk of injuring the fish.

[taketz]

"I'll agree with you that I don't like copper treatments or hypo salinity treatments and would consider them "barbaric" or "mideval" in nature. I use a method of no meds but with multiple clean tanks. Every two days the fish is moved from one tank to the other and old tank is drained and cleaned. Do this 4 times for a total of 8 days and all parasites will have dropped off the fish with NO CHANCE of the parasite re attaching."

You have anything to back this up? I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, it just seems like a pretty novel idea and one which might work better for my current needs. I just want to know whether or not this is scientifically backed up or not.

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by taketz
I just want to know whether or not this is scientifically backed up or not.

If your referring to the the transfer method then you should note that that has been around a long time (sometimes called the bucket method) and it works and the science behind it is sound. There should be plenty of posts on the subject and Terry Bartelme's ich series mentions it. The downside of the transfer method is the additional stress on the fish from capturing and transferring the fish multiple times.

From my perspective the transfer method has limited application. If your dealing with fish that came from the show tank then your going to have to let that tank go fallow for about 5 weeks before you can place a fish back into the ST ... so whats the hurry.

If your dealing with a new fish .. then the transfer method has limited application since it won't protect you from a host of other non-ich diseases. Further .. one of the points of QTing new fish is to acclimate them to captivity, fatten them up etc .. not scare the crap out of them every 3 days.

[phc567]

well with just one post under her belt. I'de have to call Bull shoot !!!! Is she just trying to raise eyebrows in here?

[triggerfish1976]

Medication is the only way to go IMOP. I have used a mixture of copper, formulin and hydrofurizone (sp.) for a while now and have never seen any ill effect on my fish and they are completely disease free when they leave QT.
You can Hypo, use transfer method etc. and no meds and run the risk of introducing other more lethal pathogens to the tank like Brook, velvet, internal parasites etc.
Keep in mind that Ich is generally not the killer of fish that most make it out to be. A healthy fish can overcome it over time but Ich can be a precursor to amyloodinium which cannot easily be treated by Hypo or transfer method.
I am not sure where you got the information that Hypo reduces stress. The last time I checked prolonged exposure to lower salinity can be deadly to many marine fish. Some fish like Clowns are more tolerant of Hypo whereas Angelfish are not.

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
I am not sure where you got the information that Hypo reduces stress. The last time I checked prolonged exposure to lower salinity can be deadly to many marine fish. Some fish like Clowns are more tolerant of Hypo whereas Angelfish are not.

This isn't cutting edge news and many large public aquariums have adopted as std Qt procedure. Some people confuse hypo saliity with FW dips.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish

[triggerfish1976]

I know for a fact that most of the larger angelfish (Pomacanthus and Holacanthus) will not tolerate prolonged exposure to hypo.
I also only take what public aquariums do with a grain of salt. I have seen many fish at my local aquarium that have diseases ranging from Ich to Brook so hypo is not the best way to go if they are using that method.

[kevin2000]

I never said anything about hypo curing brook .. this is an ich thread. Further .. std QT with hypo isn't considered prolonged exposure .. even angels will do fine.

[superedge88]

It's cryptocaryon guys (crypt), calling it ich makes us all sound like a bunch of rookie hobbyists that just started a saltwater aquarium. Call it by the right name.

[kevin2000]

If you want to type out cryptocaryon irritans every time you refer to ich .. fine with me. I don't feel like a rookie using the shorter aka.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by superedge88
It's cryptocaryon guys (crypt), calling it ich makes us all sound like a bunch of rookie hobbyists that just started a saltwater aquarium. Call it by the right name.

You make a good point because there are many different strains of "ich" with Cryptocaryon Irritans only being a small portion of what we actually see in home aquaria. This is one of the biggest misconceptions when discussion proper treatment because Hypo may only effect one type whereas other strains may have developed an immunity to it. That is why proper med's are generally the best option IMOP.

In response to Kevin's post about angels, I am curious to know how many large angelfish (5" +) you have run through hypo because I have personally put several (approx. 30) through hypo back when I used to think that it was a good substitute for pathogen treatment and most of my larger specimans struggled through the treatment and I even lost a couple of fish due to it. They have a hard time adapting to cpative life as it is and the stress put on them from the hypo makes it worse.
I have put the same species of angel through medicated treatments like Formalin with zero side effects and 100% acclimation.

Lastly, like I said in a previous post, it is pretty much pointless to only treat for Crypto because it is not the main pathogen that is killing fish, amyloodinium and brook are and both of these diseases are running rampant in the hobby right now. You can hypo or use the transfer method all day long but if you allow velvet or brook in the main display you're pretty much SoL.

[superedge88]

Originally posted by kevin2000
If you want to type out cryptocaryon irritans every time you refer to ich .. fine with me. I don't feel like a rookie using the shorter aka.

So type "crypt" then, you may not feel like a rookie, but you do sound like one

[superedge88]

Originally posted by triggerfish1976
Medication is the only way to go IMOP. I have used a mixture of copper, formulin and hydrofurizone (sp.) for a while now and have never seen any ill effect on my fish and they are completely disease free when they leave QT.
You can Hypo, use transfer method etc. and no meds and run the risk of introducing other more lethal pathogens to the tank like Brook, velvet, internal parasites etc.
Keep in mind that Ich is generally not the killer of fish that most make it out to be. A healthy fish can overcome it over time but Ich can be a precursor to amyloodinium which cannot easily be treated by Hypo or transfer method.
I am not sure where you got the information that Hypo reduces stress. The last time I checked prolonged exposure to lower salinity can be deadly to many marine fish. Some fish like Clowns are more tolerant of Hypo whereas Angelfish are not.

What do you mean that "ich" can be a precursor to amyloodinium? That makes no sense at all. Both parasites must be present, and both parasites are very different from each other. I do think that in many cases that amyloodinium is misidentified by many if not most hobbyists as cryptocaryon. In which case hyposalinity and copper baths have little to no effect.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by superedge88
What do you mean that "ich" can be a precursor to amyloodinium? That makes no sense at all. Both parasites must be present, and both parasites are very different from each other. I do think that in many cases that amyloodinium is misidentified by many if not most hobbyists as cryptocaryon. In which case hyposalinity and copper baths have little to no effect.

First off, I said "can be a precursor" meaning that in the event that both are present, and in many cases they are because these are two of the most predominant pathogens encountered, the onsite of Amyloodinium generally attacks the fish once their immune system has been damaged by Crypto. Most fish that die from supposed crypto infestation are in fact dying from velvet as most described signs prior to death are symptoms that are generally related to velvet as apposed to crypto. These are rapid breathing, filmy susbstance on the body, Swimming up near the surface or into a powerhead or return line due to oxygen deprevation.

[PhillyD123]

Every bit of research and aquariast, Marine Bioligist etc that I have discussed Ich with and yes I will call it Ich. What do you call Diabetes? Myself my bestfriend who is a doctor all call it diabetes. Not its full name Diabetes Mellitus type one or type two. Yeah rather spare my tongue and sound like an ammature then ramble off incoherently. And I am not a nurse anymore I am a corpman. And also my gender was male last time I checked and sorry I am not hemphoroditic. Anyway all the discussions research prove that "Ich" Is an ever present part of every tank. Stress weakens the immune system and allows the parasite which like cancer is always there waiting for the oppurtunity to strike. Any environmental change is going to stress out the fish again any hypo copper kills everything it is not something I would go near lets compare it to Chemo. Quarantine is headed in the right direction but taking something out of its living space and placing it in a new bare bones is going to stress/weaken the fish too. Not nearly as bad as the other common methods. Boost the immune system and break the "Ich" lifecycle. There are multiple stages all you have to do is keep your fish alive long enough for it to run its course. "Ich" is not like a bacterial infection. You can not throw a pill at it and it will disappear. It is more like a virus let it run its course and be fought off. Breaking the life cycle is the key. Allicin does multiple things for this. It masks the fish so the parasite can not spot it as easy. It also boosts the immune system which helps with not only the "ich" But everything it invites along the way. Uv sterilizers are not nearly as effective and also kill the good as well as the bad (Not in as brutal of a fashion as the O' so beloved death in a bottle known as copper or malachite green.) But they do kill good as well as bad. I would not quarintine but it breaks the cycle so it is effective and probably a good idea but you are putting stress on something weak. You tell me if that is a good idea. Boost your nutrients vitamins and minerals also. It helps strengthen the fish. There is also a theory that it sends the "Ich" Back into hiding but until; I have seen complete proof I will take it with a grain of salt. For the record if I wanted to fight I would do another cage match. And also I am not talking out of my rear simply offering the soundest advice possible with "Science" to back me.

[PhillyD123]

I forgot two good little helpers Cleaner gobies and cleaner shrimp Natural

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by PhillyD123
Every bit of research and aquariast, Marine Bioligist etc that I have discussed Ich with and yes I will call it Ich. What do you call Diabetes? Myself my bestfriend who is a doctor all call it diabetes. Not its full name Diabetes Mellitus type one or type two. Yeah rather spare my tongue and sound like an ammature then ramble off incoherently.

So what you're telling me is, your doctor friend would diagnose someone that has leukemia and tell the patient that they you just have cancer and we can clear that up with Kimotherapy. No offense to your friend but this is exactly why medical insurance is so expensive.
This thinking is also why so many fish are lost eevry year to marine pathogens. For years the hobby has pretty much over emphasised the word "ich" to the point that most people when seeing white spots on a fish automatically assume that it is "ich" but just like cancer there can be many different strains of Crypto or it may even be a different pathogen all together. Unfortunetly they treat specifically for Cryptocaryon Irritans and it doesn't get rid of the pathogen due to a mis-diagnosis.

[PhillyD123]

Do you take your dog to a vet? If you answered no you might want ot consider it they spent years of their life specifically training in how to treat your animal. The downfall is you have to pay for their training. Doctors are the same way bud. I also failed to mention that Chemo' (not "Kimo")lowers your life expectancy to a few years if it works because it nukes EVERYTHING which is why you have no hair at all. What do you think Copper does? it is chemo' for fish same with malachite I am simply saying you are taking something allready weak and making it weaker. Does that make sense to you. It sure does not to me. There are more types of cancer then I could name guess what they are still cancer. Clearly I offended you but instead of attacking the medical field which does not offend me it simply does not make sense. Stop and think Allicin is also reputed to have antibiotic properties and they are testing right now on humans. If you choose to butcher your fish it is your choice.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by PhillyD123
I also failed to mention that Chemo' (not "Kimo")lowers your life expectancy to a few years if it works because it nukes EVERYTHING which is why you have no hair at all. What do you think Copper does?

I don't know, the last time I checked living was better than losing a couple of years off of the tail end of ones life weather it is a person or a fish.

[ArgonDreams]

Wow just wow.

Freshwater dips, Copper treatments and quarantines along with lowering the salinity are all comparable to bleeding someone out. Especially since Ich is usaully brought on by stress. Gee lets stress the fish out more it will get better. Stop one of the stages in the life cycle of Ich and boost the fishes natural immune system. Not a scorched earth/water policy

This is a scare tactic and garbage science at best. You offer a lot on innuendo in your posts and absolutely nothing to back up your claims. Let me dissect what you have said:

Any environmental change is going to stress out the fish again any hypo copper kills everything it is not something I would go near lets compare it to Chemo. Quarantine is headed in the right direction but taking something out of its living space and placing it in a new bare bones is going to stress/weaken the fish too. Not nearly as bad as the other common methods. Boost the immune system and break the "Ich" lifecycle. There are multiple stages all you have to do is keep your fish alive long enough for it to run its course. "Ich" is not like a bacterial infection. You can not throw a pill at it and it will disappear. It is more like a virus let it run its course and be fought off. Breaking the life cycle is the key

Again no scientific basis for this statement. Breaking the life cycle will certainly kill a parasite, but you offer little in the way of help or method to replace these methods.

And yes, Parasites ARE affected by medications (It's NOT a virus like you suggest), this will interrupt the life cycle. However you are advocating boosting the immune system through garlic and letting them fight it off on their own. Would you prescribe that to a human patient that had a parasitic infection? I think not. Heck, I know for a fact you would likely be out on your rear if you did in most medical organizations.

I would not quarintine but it breaks the cycle so it is effective and probably a good idea but you are putting stress on something weak. You tell me if that is a good idea. Boost your nutrients vitamins and minerals also. It helps strengthen the fish. There is also a theory that it sends the "Ich" Back into hiding but until; I have seen complete proof I will take it with a grain of salt. For the record if I wanted to fight I would do another cage match. And also I am not talking out of my rear simply offering the soundest advice possible with "Science" to back me.

Again, what are you suggesting? I have only seen "garlic" and boost it's "vitamins". Where is your peer reviewed study? Where is the science? I don't see anything here that suggests that using Copper, Hypo Salinity and QT is either unethical or amoral treatments.

In fact Ionic Copper is being used in human medicine for Arthritic treatments. And referring to dissimilar treatments to "bloodletting", "chemo therapy" "Cancer" is a scare tactic and poor argument for your cause. Come back with bonofide facts please.

[luke33]

Its an easy subject to fool around in. Here's what works. Hypo and copper. If you have to treat your display, take out all your inverts and LR and put them in a rubbermaid and hypo in your display.....only if you have to. The prefered method being in your QT with hypo or copper.

Here's another fact......FW dips do nothing put stress out your fish bigtime. There have been tests with ick on fish in FW and it has lived for over 10hrs when imbedded. So i would suggest your Dr pal, or pre med student at best to study a bit harder.

[szwab]

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