Need help configuring new reef - 180-280g

[Dudester]

I've had a 30g reef for about 4 months now, and I'm hooked, but larger tanks are still a mystery to me. I'm going to put a large mixed reef tank into my new office reception room, and I need your help. Unlike my tank at home, for which I do all of the work, we'll probably hire a local company to perform most of the weekly maintenance. I'll work on it only very little once it's set up, since, after all, I will be working. Sure, I'll feed it and stock it, but water changes, cleaning of the tank and equipment,etc. will need to be performed by the service folks. Automation will therefore be necessary regarding topoff, calcium regulation, temperature/lighting/circulation control, etc.

Primary concerns include:
1. free-standing unit (not in-wall)
2. canopy and cabinet must conceal all equipment
3. leak-proof (or as close to this as possible)
4. self-sufficient (automated, to some degree)
5. quiet
6. able to accomodate everything from inverts to softies to SPS

Tank. I've decided to go with glass due to its improved resistance to scratches, since it will be in a reception room. I looked at reef-ready tanks from AGA and Oceanic, and it seems that 180g is a standard size for "large" tanks. I'd like to go larger, even up to 280g, but would like the increased size to come from increasing either the tank width or depth (front to back). 24" tall is plenty, especially since I have short arms.

Filtration. Live rock, shallow sand bed (I like the look), large protein skimmer. I was considering a EuroReef skimmer rated for a little larger than my intended system volume. Sound good?

Circulation. Ideally I'd like to have a closed loop, powered by either an Iwaki or Sequence pump. I understand that I can't expect a specific recommendation regarding pump models since I haven't committed on a tank size, but any and all suggestions are welcome. If "standard" reef-ready tanks aren't available pre-drilled, then I'll go with either an OceansMotions 4-way, or a Tunze Wavemaker with 2 Streams.

Sump/Refugium. This will be important since I'll want to keep all of my heaters, fan(s), pH monitor/controller, protein skimmer, etc. out of sight. I also want a place for macro and pods to propagate. I'll probably have this custom made by either Trigger Systems or Marc Levenson (you out there, melev?). For a return pump, I'll obviously need something submersible. Little Giant, MagDrive, other?

Calcium Reactor. This will be necessary for my calcium and alkalinity needs, since I do plan on keeping SPS. It won't be an SPS-dominated tank (at least I say that now ), so I wouldn't be against just topping off with kalk and supplementing when necessary. I just feel like it would take a sh$#-load of B-Ionic to keep up, so I'm favoring the calcium reactor. I was thinking of something from My Reef Creations or Lifereef?

Lighting. Here's where I'm most ignorant. The lights will have to fit under a canopy, since I wouldn't be able to trust the people in the reception area from tossing bread crumbs, pennies and M&Ms into the tank. Since I'll want clams and SPS I'll need to go with MH lighting, and probably supplement with actinics? If there's a single unit that has these with a moonlight, that would be best. Although a moonlight is not essential since the only person who might look at the tank at night would be me, and not for long (I know, this is a shame).

Controller. This will be critical, since the tank will be abandoned during weekends and holidays. I am considering the AquaController and the ReefKeeper 2 . Any suggestions?

Topoff. - I use the Tunze Osmolator at home and am quite pleased with it. I don't see any reason why not to use it for this tank as well. Of course the topoff reservoir will need to fit inside the cabinet. I'll either have an RO/DI maker in the office somewhere, or the aquarium service will bring the water for topoff and water changes.


That's all I can think of for now. Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The office building will be built very soon, so the architects need to know how much this thing will weigh and how much electricity I'll need (i.e. dedicated circuit) in a very short time, so I'm kind of under the gun to get them an answer on my tank specs. Thanks in advance.

[thedude15810]

Ok I'll bite Mike:

Tank - Unfotunately, I think that going with a deeper tank might be a good idea, as you get more viewing area (which is really what will impress most uninformed people). That being said, I'd cap off the height at 30 inches, to prevent it from looking TOO tall. How many feet of length do you have to work with and we'll select an appropriate tank.

Filtration - I agree totally that you need a shallow sandbed. Anyone uninformed looking into the tank will say a tank without sand is ugly, and I would tend to agree. x

I also love the idea of a Euroreef, because of their simplicity and great design. They also won't overflow when you feed like many beckett style skimmers and I think are priced reasonably. The only downside is their customer service is just awful. Deltec has far greater customer service, and the price reflects that.

Another aspect of filtration to consider as well is live rock type. Do you want it to be a shelf rock tank, a branch rock tank, a mix? And finally, how are you going to run carbon or other media? I personally love the phosban reactors, but with carbon and a synthetic absorber like Purigen instead.

Circulation - We could try and size an oceansmotions unit on the back of the tank, but remember that any more plumbing, has the potential to leak. For that reason alone, I personally would go with the wavebox/stream combo. They're also much easier to deal with, instead of having to get behind the tank with your plumbing primer and glue. In something that large, I'd go with a wavebox and two 6100's I believe on a multicontroller. It would provide more than adequate flow for all types of creature.

Calcium Reactor - You've got the idea right for a Calcium reactor but I'll throw out the names I would personally recommend. Knop would be the first one, the first calcium reactor marketed, and still a great buy. Korallin would be the other as it is a very compact package and works great. Several local reefers I know run the Korallin reactor and love it. I'd also get a PH controller to control it.

With lighting inside a canopy I think of several options, the first of which would be to retrofit it. I might do this in a home tank, but IMHO, a fire hazard might result here. So in all honestly, why not just do the Oceanlight byt Aquamedic or something similar? The oceanlight would offer a combination of t5 bulbs for actinic and MH bulbs. They make fixtures up to 6 feet and are very cost effective. The canopy could be slightly taller than a normal canopy and the fixture could be housed very comfortably.



Controller - Love the Reefkeeper 2. No X-10 module interference, just a great hardwired controller. It could also handle the PH controller needs of your calcium reactor.

Topoff - This could be slightly more tricky. Suppose on your large tank with MH lamps, that you evaporate 5 gallons a day. Now you could have a large supply of plastic jugs (say 7) for a once a day fill of the reservoir but I tend to think that impractical. Why not instead, run the RO unit through the wall, into a topoff reservoir? You could design it with a switch that only switches the unit on after the entire reservoir empties.

That's all I can think of as well, except that I think the livestock list needs to be a little more complete to help with the planning.

Do you want a Nemo pair? (I think the answer to this is DUH )
What kind of anemone do you want?
What specific corals were you thinking of stocking with? (I tend to like leathers and other large tall corals that sway in the current)

Also finally, will there be a chiller? And if so, where will it be located, so as not to put tons of heat out into the reception room.

John

[bcoons]

Oh boy! Am I gonna have fun following this thread. This will be a good practice run for the planning of my own "next big tank."

I'm too beat right now to contribute much. Just got back from the local high school where I help mentor the Robotics Competition Team. We're nearing the end of the 6 week build period for this year's competition and things are pretty hectic as we have to ship the robot next Tuesday afternoon. I'll be spending the whole long weekend in the school robotics lab working with the kids, then things quiet down a bit until the competitions in Houston and Atlanta in April. Then I'll finally be able to get back to thinking about reef tanks again.

I will throw in a vote for the ReefKeeper II. I already have mine on pre-order and hope they ship around the end of the month. I also just ordered a Curent USA SunPod 150W MH fixture for my 20Long as my light upgrade.

I've been using this Auto Top Off system for the last month or so and really like it:

http://www.floatswitches.net/ATO.html

Gee, I may someday have to make an appointment just to come down and see your tank. I hope you're not an OB/GYN or something!

Bruce

[The Reefer91]

i'm just ognna let you know you're gonna need around 10,000$ to pull this off. cool idea though

[Dudester]

Thanks, John, for chiming in. OK, I'm sold on the 30" height. Now I just need to find a standard, glass, reef-ready tank that's at least 72" x 30" x 24 (or more)". I have 12 feet to work with, so the tank length will not be a problem. I'd like to go deeper (front to back) than 24" if this is a standard size to incease the ease and interest of the aquascape.

Regarding the skimmer, I think I'll stick with the EuroReef due to the cost. I'll price the system with this, anyway, and if I can talk my partners into upgrading, then I'll go with the Deltec.

I'd like the rock to be a mixture of shelf and branch. The tank will be large enough that I can set up different zones if I wish. I can run carbon in a Phosban reactor, like you suggested, or just drop a bag in my sump like I do with my current tank. I could also easily plumb in a small canister filter with carbon if I need to.

For circulation, I agree with you, John. The plumbing of a 4-way would be a nightmare in the office, especially if there's a leak to contend with. Since I don't think standard tanks come pre-drilled for a closed loop, I think I'll go with the Tunze Wavebox and 2 Tunze powerheads.

The Oceanlight looks like a great option IF I limit the tank to 6 feet. I like the simplicity and all-inclusiveness of that light. But what if we go longer? I guess I could live with JUST 6 feet if I have to . Any other suggestions out there?

I like your idea for the topoff, running a line through the wall. That wouldn't be too tricky and a lot easier than filling jugs of water. I would have to have a safety check of some kind to prevent it from going haywire and filling up my reception room!

I'm hoping to do without a chiller due to the noise they create, the space it would occupy, and the heat it would put out. Is it reasonable to think I could keep it cool enough with just fans, even with MH lighting?

Livestock will be just as you mentioned, lots of tall softies and LPS swaying in the current, probably a clown pair and an RBTA, and of course some SPS that I can frag to stock my home aquarium .

Bruce - Glad you made it here. I've seen that ATO before and I like it a lot. For now, I think John's idea is first on my list. If I can't get the RO/DI tubing installed through the wall, however, I'll reconsider yours. Yep, ReefKeeper 2 here I come. I love my ReefKeeper (version 1) and the pH controller on the newer version will certainly come in handy. I also like its simplicity!

p.s. NOT an Ob/Gyn!

The Reefer91 - OK, I'm still in! Fortunately I'll be sharing the cost of this system with my partners, so I need to establish a price that won't freak them out and force them to vote "thumbs down," yet will allow me to get some fun toys to play with.


Keep the ideas coming please!

[thedude15810]

The biggest tank Oceanic normally makes is the 215 gallon (72 1/2 x 24 x 29) which would be your perfect 6 foot tank. Bigger than that, and we'd need to have it custom built which increases the price exponentially, unless we go through another manufacturer (glasscages or something similar). One thing that will suck is the size of the glass bracing for a tank this big. The only other option would be to get a brick model, but the tank itself would probably cost 10 grand or more that way.

I still live and die by my Euroreef. I just don't want it ever to break or I'm screwed.

Shelf and branch sounds very interesting. A reactor for the carbon would make maintenance easier and make the carbon more effective.

BIG TUNZE's HOORAY. We should be able to get a large wave in a six foot tank, but maybe we should ask Roger if the extension would be necessary. I wouldn't think so, and two 6200's and a wavebox would make the tank rock.

A "high" floatwitch in the sump connected to the osmolator would make sure that no messes ever occured.

I think we can do enough fans to keep the temperature down. Plus hopefully the reefkeeper would keep the fans and heater from battling each other. We might want to do an external pump as the return however, as the heat will be significantly reduced.

I like the idea of this being your frag tank.... a lot...

John

[integlikewhoa]

I think you better leave room in your plans for a chiller. Texas has good summers. If you dont plan for it and you find after setting it up that you need one your screwed. I would pick one out find a place to put it, and figure out how your going to plum it atleast. Then if you never need it (which i think you will) good you have extra room. But if you do just run out and buy it and your set. Even if the room is set every day at a certin degrees the tanks going to run hotter.

Also what about power supply. For a tank this size your going to need a seperate circuit. You going to be useing a alot of power for this tank. Probley 100-150 a month atlest to run the tank.

Also think about power outtages. A tank this size will have alot of money in livestock.

[melev]

Everything sounds good to me, and it sounds like you have everything covered.

I don't believe you'll use as much power as integlikewhoa mentions. My 280g uses around $60 to $80 a month of power, because I'm using lower voltage items. The window A/C unit runs quite a bit, which I'll be measuring in the near future. However, flow is generated by the Little Giant (141w), two Tunze 6100s (42w each), and a VorTech (26w). I just picked up to Tunze 6060s that pull 11w each that I plan to put in the back of the rockwork to keep that section clean of detritus. My Euro-Reef 12-2 uses 81w of power, and the refugium bulbs pull 40w of power. I measured my lighting and was surprised that they pull less than expected. My VHOs are providing 320w of light (two 6' bulbs), but the IceCap ballast only pulls 173w of power (that one was from memory and might be slightly off).

If you need a chiller, you can add one. Fans in the sump area as well as the canopy should work fine. I've had several tanks over the years, and never needed a chiller.

[Im14abeer]

Just two thoughts, I'll let those way more qualified than I make suggestions for this scale of a project. First, as a saftey on the makeup water, use two float valves. The low level float stops the product water from entering the resevoir, the high level float stops the supply water to the filter. Easy huh? And I second integlikewhoa's comment on power outages, besides the money tied up in livestock and all the other things in the tank that need the juice flowing, a dead, stagnant tank in your reception area will have the opposite as intended effect. Oh one more thing, since you'd have to run supply water to the stand to do as I suggested, you may as well put a hose bibb under there. And since you're doing that, may as well put a drain under there too. That way the service guy can rinse buckets and such, pump them out and not carry/slosh water through your office. Note, just because the water supply for the filter is under the stand, the filter itself could be anywhere. I'd put it under the coffee machine with a bar faucet on the counter. I know this sounds like a big deal, but assuming your reception area isn't in the middle of the building, you can branch off a line going to an outside hose bibb or lawn sprinkler line. The beauty of new construction! Good luck!

[Dudester]

John - OK, looks like we've settled on a tank -- the Oceanic 215g Reef-Ready. Mission #1 accomplished.

From what I remember about the Wavebox, a six foot tank would likely need an extension. I agree that we'll have to check with Roger on this one.

I like your idea regarding an external return pump from the sump to reduce heat. The only problem I see with this is that it would occupy more space under the cabinet, which translates into a smaller sump. Admittedly, however, it would be less space than a chiller would occupy, so I agree that's probably the way to go. Would this create more noise than a submerged pump?

FRAG TANK FOR SURE! But with one correction - - this will be OUR frag tank .

integlikewhoa - Thanks for your comments. I agree, it does get stinking hot here in Texas. But fortunately this tank will be in a large office building and the climate will be well-controlled to keep people comfortable in both summer and winter. I appreciate your forward thinking, and I'll resist the urge to completely fill the cabinet below the tank.

Regarding the power supply, that's one of the reasons I'm in a hurry to configure this tank with specific equipment. The architects need to know how much power I'll need to run the system, and I'm going to have at least one dedicated circuit for the tank. As soon as I (we) select all of the equipment, I'll do some math and total the power necessary to run it. The beauty is that I won't have to pay for electricity, or water for that matter. Utilities will be included in my rent!

melev - I knew you couldn't resist the urge to help a fellow Texan . Thanks for sharing your experiences without the need for a chiller. If I do get sump-hungry and completely fill my cabinet (which I probably will), I could always build a small cabinet to place beside the tank that could enclose a chiller and any maintenance equipment that might be useful (like a turkey baster).

Im14abeer - Agree with the dual float valves . Regarding power outages, you make some good points, and I'll definitely have some backup power supply (like an APC or something?) in the event of a power outage. I would not want to compromise all of the livestock and, as you mentioned, a reception room tank full of dead fish and algae wouldn't provide the soothing effect I'm looking for!

The drain is a great idea, although I'm worried that it would be very difficult to access since the bottom of my cabinet will be pretty full with the sump/fuge, Ca reactor, return pump, topoff reservoir, power backup device, ?ozonizer?, Phosban reactor, etc. Hmmm, maybe I should reconsider and go with an in-wall with a tank room?


OK, now that I have the tank size confirmed, I need to assemble a reasonably solid equipment list. I'll do this in list form for the ease of reading and commenting.

Tank. - Oceanic 215g Reef-Ready

Circulation. Tunze Wavebox with or without extension, and the Turbelle Stream Kit TS24 (comes with two 6100's and a multicontroller).

Skimmer. EuroReef RC250 or the CS250?

Calcium Reactor. Knop Calcium reactor S IV or Korallin Calcium Reactor 1502. The Korallin looks to be significantly cheaper.

Lighting. Can't find any info on a 6' Oceanlight. I'm only seeing the small pendant I'm using on my 30g cube. Anyone have a link to the AquaMedic Oceanlight that John referred to above, or any other lighting suggestions?

Controller. ReefKeeper 2

Topoff To be determined.

Backup power To be determined.

Cabinet/canopy. Probably the Oceanic cabinet that is suited for the tank, although custom made might be more spacious without too much cost?

Cool, so we've made substantial progress since yesterday. Keep'em coming, please, the clock's ticking! (and thanks to everyone for your help)

[bcoons]

Originally posted by Dudester


Backup power To be determined.

Keep me in the loop for the backup power design. I have some experience in backup power systems for emergency communications systems that may be applicable.

Another item connected to this is automated alarm systems. Your new building will probably have an alarm system for fire, intrusion, power outages, etc. Many times an external contact closure (like a tank failure alarm) indication can be wired into such alarm systems and automatically call your cell phone or pager (or send an email) to indicate a fault situation. I get the impression that the building layout is still being finalized? If so, now is a good time to talk to the alarm system dudes.

Bruce

[Dudester]

Thanks, Bruce, I'll definitely consult you for a recommendation. I remember you mentioning you had some expertise in this area when I was considering a backup power source for my 30g tank. I'll want something that can (hopefully) fit inside the cabinet, with all of the other ancillary equipment. Otherwise, I could always put it in a "sidecar" cabinet if one is necessary for a chiller, etc.

I also love the idea of an alarm system incorporated into the tank. I'll discuss this with the builders and find out who's responsible for the alarms. Great suggestion, as this could really come in handy for long weekends and vacations when the office will be vacant!

[thedude15810]

You definitely need the custom cabinet unfornately... or not really unfortunate at all. Go with a custom one, either suited to your pediatric office, or a nice furniture grade stand.

The 215 oceanic will leave us more than enough sump room. It won't be able to span the whole 6 feet anyway as it won't fit into the stand around the bracing.

As for power we need at least two circuits. One for the lighting, one for the other equipment, and another possibly to run a chiller.

And yes, a tank room would make this infinitely easier.

John

[bcoons]

Originally posted by Dudester
I'll want something that can (hopefully) fit inside the cabinet, with all of the other ancillary equipment. Otherwise, I could always put it in a "sidecar" cabinet if one is necessary for a chiller, etc.

Fitting an inverter and switching inside the cabinet won't be too much of a problem, but fitting enough battery capacity for more than a couple of hours of operation could be a challenge. You really don't want large lead-acid batteries in your cabinet for several reasons.

It depends on load, temp, and some other factors, but a rough rule of thumb is that you can get 600-800 watt-hours out of a standard RV/Marine deep cycle battery. This can carry a lot of your tank systems for a few hours, or even a couple more with some judicious load shedding. For more than that, you need to move up to a couple of golf cart batteries. You really want ANY large batteries in their own vented enclosure. As John says above, a fish room/equipment room would be really nice. (Think of Weatherson's fish room, his tank is only 30 gal more than yours.)

So, batteries can power your system through a few to maybe up to 10 hours of commercial power outage, which would seem to be enough for most of our outages in this area. The biggest challenges are heating and cooling if the outage happens during one of our temperature extremes. Longer than 10 hours or so will require a generator. Will your building have an emergency generator? Will your office be near a window on a ground floor where you could run a cable to a generator outside? Have you ever had a power outage of longer than 10 hours in your area? Where in Austin is your new building going to be? I'm told that Austin Power has a pretty good reliability reputation.

Lot's of variables and design compromises to consider. We'll need to sit down over a Starbuck's Caffe Mocha someday to discuss details. (Caffe Mocha really stimulates my brain cells. )

I'm off to the high school robotics lab until late this evening. I'll check back in tonight. This is going to be a very informative thread.

Bruce

[Dudester]

I kind of figured I'd need a custom cabinet. It'll look much better than the standard Oceanic anyway, and we can design it so that it will hold all of the equipment and still leave room to work. I really dislike being cramped like I am in my current setup.

I'll plan on 2 circuits, but I need to nail down some more equipment specs to determine how many watts for the circuits (I hope I said that right, since I'm not too bright [get it] regarding electical issues).

Bruce, I've never lost power for more than 3 hours in my home. The building will have its own power generator and backup power supply from Austin Power, so even if the power goes out, it won't be for long. I was thinking of just having something, like a small unit, that I could plug my circulation pumps into to keep the tank oxygenated during a power outage. A system of this volume shouldn't lose too much heat, especially with the pumps on, and I wouldn't need the lights on backup power, either, due to the short duration of the power outage that I would anticipate. I can't imagine the building losing power for more than a few hours, max. Nevertheless, I'll still take you up on that mocha .

Yeah, Weatherson's tank room is truly INSANE! I don't think I could talk my partners into ponying in on that kind of a deal.

Any comments on the equipment I listed earlier as options?

Hey John, I saw the 72" Oceanlight - very cool! I guess we could just hang that pendant inside the canopy, eh?

[AustinVines]

Definitely tagging along, Dude. Yours will be a great system for me to see progress since I am also looking for a 180+ tank that has everything housed in the stand. Where is your office going to be in Austin and will your practice take bxbs hmo?

[Dudester]

AustinVines - Glad you're here, and if you have any ideas already for your enclosed 180+ system, please share them. Regarding your second and third questions, I sent you a pm.

[8x8nhl]

sounds good to me

[melev]

8x8nhl,

[welcome]

Dudester, if you buy an Oceanic tank, you have to buy their $500 stand to get the warranty coverage.

[Dudester]

Originally posted by melev
Dudester, if you buy an Oceanic tank, you have to buy their $500 stand to get the warranty coverage.

I remember seeing this somewhere else as well. Thanks for bringing it up. Is this a big deal? I mean, how many new tanks require any warranty service? Although I'd sure feel ridiculous not having a warranty if I did a wet test and it had a leak. Crap, I don't want to go with their stand.


How about my skimmer and calcium reactor options posted above, anyone have any comments on whether or not they're good choices, preferences, etc.?

[melev]

The sad part is their stand is just plywood and 2x4s. It isn't a pretty stand, and you still have to put your own facing on the front and sides to make it look good - at least for the larger tanks like Servo's 400g.

I know several people have had their tank leak within 3 years, and if they didn't have the stand, Oceanic didn't honor the warranty.

[ruppel]

Here's some Aquamedic systems--

http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_...es.asp?CartId=

[Dudester]

melev - I guess I'll just have to risk it, since I will not be going with Oceanic's stand. Switching gears a little, is there another tank manufacturer that would be recommended instead of Oceanic that has similar spec's but would warranty the product without using their stand?

ruppel - Thanks for the link. I found it myself previously and, of course, I've selected this one, the 72 incher with 4 250W MH and 4 T5's. Gotta love it, eh?

[Dudester]

Slight change of plan, for the better, I think. In talking with the building folks, we've decided to design this tank as a room divider. It will be viewable from front and back, and they will build the stand and cabinetry above and below the tank so that it blends in with the room better. I'll also get them to install a sink close to the tank and, of course, a drain to facilitate water changes and everything else a sink is needed for.

Since I'm not using Oceanic's stand, should I consider a different manufacturer than Oceanic (due to warranty concerns) and if so, which tank brand should I consider instead?

Would 2 20W circuits be enough for a system like this?

[melev]

I have three, but that is because I ran a window A/C unit that pulls 8 amps by itself.