Bare Bottom Theory...

Travis Savant · #1 12/26/2006, 05:17 PM

I have a bare bottom 20 gallon SPS tank and I have an idea.

When I first started the tank it was bare bottom and my corals didn't do so great. I switched it over to a SSB and the corals did much better.

Recently I upgraded my turn over rate to something around 80x. This, of course, blew all of the sand that was in the front to the back. I wasn't diggin' the look so I siphoned out all of the sand so I am now back at bare bottom.

The problem I had before was the tank was way too sterile, the addition of sand made it 'dirtier' I suppose you can say. So, what I theorize is that with the bare bottom, I am going to need a higher Bioload for the tank, to make it 'dirtier'.

At the moment, the corals are looking great. Right now I have five, yes five fish in the tank. I have an Occ. Clownfish, Yellow Tail Damsel, Blue/Green Reef Chromis, Sixline Wrasse, and a Fridmani Psudochromis.

What I plan on doing, if the corals seem to decline in the same manner of which they did before the addition of sand, I will add more fish until I find a balance of bioload/coral health.

Now of course fish aggression is a concern, so I will only be adding docile fish, if I need to that is. Perhaps another Blue/Green Chromis?

Anyone who has done this before, or has read about it, mind telling me the outcome?

I am wanting the opinions of my fellow reefers (you guys) before I make any decisions.

MiddletonMark · #2 12/26/2006, 05:31 PM

Couldn't you just add nutrients to the tank by feeding more, without any livestock addition?

asnatlas · #3 12/26/2006, 05:32 PM

You could also add a RDSB...

fish lad · #4 12/26/2006, 05:34 PM

feed heavier, don't go stressing livestock when there are other methods

Travis Savant · #5 12/26/2006, 05:35 PM

What do you all suggest to feed? I feed DT's Oyster Eggs every now and then, is there anything else small enough that the SPS will be able to take in?

JC VT · #6 12/26/2006, 05:53 PM

Try a blender mush. A good soak in RO/DI before blending will take care of alot of phosphates. My fish loved the straight seafood blender mush much more than the seafood/cyclopseeze/oyster eggs that I am trying now.

My original blender mush had:
2 Tilapia filets
4 Oysters
2 Shrimp
2 Scallops

I believe the point is to feed the fish heavy, and let their waste feed the sps, with any direct capture by the sps as a side benefit.

Gordonious · #7 12/26/2006, 06:06 PM

WAIT STOP. Do not get off topic. Adding more waist and making your tank more dirty is a bad idea. I am trying to think of a good analogy.

Gordonious · #8 12/26/2006, 06:13 PM

When you set up your tank it was like setting up a town. The town didn't want to hire any police force to clean up the town from all the bad guys so you cooked up a little trouble with the "dirty" sand. When you did that it attracted police and they multiplied like crazy. Now you've took out the dirt. Your police population is slightly less then it was when you had the sand, but it is enough to keep things in order. Now you want to add some more criminals and bad guys because you think it made things better when you cooked up trouble earlier.

(If any of that actually worked as an analogy.) What really happened was the sand helped you cycle your tank. All the little micro organisms required to break down dead tissue from your live stock and break down left over food showed up and multiplied because there was plenty of food available. Now you removed the sand which is where some of the good things lived and where some of the waist was. Now your tank is balanced with enough things to keep your levels right.

Short and sweet:
"IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT"

The only time you want to add waist purposely to your system is when you first set it up and during this time you don't want ANY living things in the tank. You have living things now, do not give yourself problems.

Gordonious · #9 12/26/2006, 06:15 PM

PS Halo rocks and I can't wait for the third one to come out. (You do realize the last line of the game will be, "We may have finished the fight, but I have a feeling this war is just about to get started." or something along those lines.)

Travis Savant · #10 12/26/2006, 06:38 PM

Gordonious, great analogy, makes a lot of sense.

Guess my hypothesis just got busted.

Travis Savant · #11 12/26/2006, 06:40 PM

Oh and about Halo, I think it would be awsome if they came out with a fourth one, or a prequel, like before MC was frozen, or before he became MC.

Gordonious · #12 12/26/2006, 06:49 PM

Well as far as before, Halo Wars the strategy game they are coming out with will be set before. When there where multiple Spartans and they were not as advanced. What I can not wait for is to see if Bungie jumps on the idea of using the controllers like Nintendo has. (sorry I'm a big geek about this stuff) But PM me on Halo, so we don't get too far off topic.

Biggest thing I would say is to watch your levels right now with your new set up. Make sure with the removal of the sand that the beginning of the Nitrate cycle stays undetectable.(Ammonia and Nitrite at 0ppm)

I am thinking about setting up a bare bottom tank as part of a larger system and I have just about decided that a bare bottom is to risky for me at this point.

MiddletonMark · #13 12/26/2006, 06:51 PM

How often do you feed your tank, how much?

Are you sure it's not light, or water flow, or some other parameter related? More light getting through due to clearer water?

Checked your test kits, refractometer vs. some known standard? [saltwater for refract, else other folks using different kits]
Not trying to argue, just figure it's good practice to check and you can probably rule some of that out immediately

I too would suggest a mush, but tend to go for more shellfish/shrimp for the wild-seafood part which is a good majority + LFS-type stuff [CE, mysid, GP's, oyster eggs, a small bit of flake, etc] for variety. IMO the fish respond well to it, my starfish come out every time vs. mysid/CE/oyster eggs the 4 months prior. LPS also seem to put out tentacles with mush more vs. LFS foods. If it gets a good feeding response from everything else ....

Perhaps it's the blending to different sizes, perhaps it's the shellfish, perhaps it's something else - but I'd try such a mix.
Consider feeding small dosed out amounts opposite of your normal feeding schedule. Take it slow, don't need to replace your current foods - but perhaps something to play with.

Personally, I don't think it's lack of fish. I run a 58 with probably the same fish load, and seem to have fine colors IMO.
When BB, I felt like the tank did better with multiple daily small feedings ... as I could export it out, a trickle of nutrients passing through didn't seem to cause significant nutrient issues + gave my corals more chances at food.

If it's ammonia you want to generate, I'd think there's plenty of bacteria eager to help ... and if it's particle size, a garage sale blender does the trick getting a wide variety [FYI, I don't think your friends want blender drinks after it's been used for fish food, and I'm positive it will gross out the wife

].

But I'd play with that vs. adding more fish - I guess I go with the theory that fish don't chew that much nor digest food long ... I can probably provide the same benefits. Without fish, if nutrients become a problem - it's a lot easier to cut back as the fishes needs are lower and you can clean things back up fairly quick.

JMO, good luck with it

JC VT · #14 12/26/2006, 06:52 PM

Travis, can you elaborate on "my corals didn't do so great"?

Travis Savant · #15 12/26/2006, 06:54 PM

At this point, the tank is in perfect condition, no problems right now.

Thanks

Travis Savant · #16 12/26/2006, 06:55 PM

Yeah, sure.

The browned out and had very little PE.

MammothReefer · #17 12/26/2006, 07:08 PM

Are you sure the barebottom of sandbed has anything to do with it.. Sounds to me like.. everything was doing bad..you added more flow and thigns started to do better.

boxfishpooalot · #18 12/26/2006, 07:19 PM

browning out sounds more like a nutrient problem. Or insuffiecient lighting to burn the color out.

Travis Savant · #19 12/26/2006, 07:21 PM

Lighting was an AB 10k 250w DE at the time of the browning.

trueblackpercula · #20 12/26/2006, 08:04 PM

ok just a question or two.
first ? what is your magnesium level at..............
second? what is your dkh at...........
I have a BB tank and found that my corals get very light in color but have lots of it. the problem you may be having could be the result of the water not being in order.
ok one more ?

Are you using ro/di water and what salt are you using?
ok last ? whats the temp at?
Michael

gman0526 · #21 12/26/2006, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Travis Savant
Yeah, sure.

The browned out and had very little PE.

Too much light and need more nutrients like Mark stated b4. How long is your photoperiod?

Travis Savant · #22 12/26/2006, 08:32 PM

At the moment, 6 hours.

The corals are NOT brown right now. They WERE about 7or 8 months ago.

Serioussnaps · #23 12/26/2006, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Couldn't you just add nutrients to the tank by feeding more, without any livestock addition?

Ditto

RichConley · #24 12/26/2006, 11:08 PM

how often do you feed? And how much.

I'm up to a sheet of nori, and probably 8 cubes of food a day in my 58, and I dont even run BB. If you're running a big skimmer, and high flow, you really need to pump food into these tanks.

Travis Savant · #25 12/26/2006, 11:10 PM

I feed 2-4 small amounts of Flakes per day.

8 cubes a DAY? WOW...