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Old 04/06/2003, 02:38 PM
TerryB TerryB is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,978
Hi Lee,
Thanks for responding to me! I hope that you don’t mind my reply here rather than by email because I thought some others might benefit or enjoy reading our exchange. I love to get the opportunity to talk with someone with your experience about diseases and general fish health management. I am going to quote some of what you said so I can follow with a reply point by point.

“I agree that hyposalinity will work on C. Irritans a lot of the time but it is my belief that it cannot 'cure" a tank or fish of the disease. There has been much evidence that the critter in its other less visible stages of life can live in near fresh water.�

Lee I would be interested to know where I can find this evidence. Could you possibly be confusing Cryptocaryon with Amlyoodinium here? Cryptocaryon irritans cannot excyst or hatch from the tomont stage at 16ppt salinity or below. This effectively interrupts the life cycle of this parasite. I use a level of 14ppt salinity for therapy (approximately a specific gravity of 1.009). Treatment lasts a minimum of three weeks. Check the pH and alk daily and buffer as needed. It is true that Amyloodinium can survive in as little as 3ppt salinity but I do not believe the same can be said of Cryptocaryon (ich). What salinity (not specific gravity) do you have experience using with Cryptocaryon?

“Well, one of the mechanisms by which hyposalinity appears to work is the rapid lowering of salinity. Since we use only RO water (1200 gal / day) we cannot lower nearly quickly enough.�

Actually, I do not encourage dropping the salinity quickly at all. I advise people to drop the salinity to the therapy level over two or three days. Hyposalinity works by interrupting the life cycle of ich at the tomont stage. It does not kill attached parasites. They have to continue to mature and fall off of the fish. At this point the tomonts cannot hatch and the parasite dies out.

“We have recently introduced C. Irritans to the display for the first time in 4 years despite or quarantine proceedures and treatment. How this happened I cannot explain other than it may have been passed from our larval rearing and rotifer cultures that are contained within the same building and not treated.�

I cannot say how you may have introduced ich into your display but there are several ways that it can be imported. The most obvious and frequent cause is bringing in infected fish. Ich can be brought in in seawater but you would have to use the water within 24 hours of taking it from the sea. It can be brought in with some live foods but the time frame would also be very short. Tomonts can attach to any hard surface including rocks, sand, glass, shells and equipment so it is possible to bring an infection in this way. It can be as simple as moving a powerhead from an infected quarantine into the display. BTW, sharks do not tolerate hypo salinity well.

“Using fresh garlic very heavily we have C. Irritans visibly taken care of. Unfortunately we will have to live with the fact that it still lives in the tank and must be controlled.�

I also see a recurrence of symptoms frequently when garlic is used to treat ich. I think it makes a better preventative than a cure. I just don’t think it works well enough for a full-blown infection. Of course, if I had a mild infection in my reef I would try it. I don’t see it working for Amyloodinium either.
Chloroquine diphosphate (or phosphate) is used at 40mg/gal as a ten day treatment. Dose ONLY on the first day of treatment. It does not kill tomonts, but it kills dinospores immediately upon hatching. Relatively non-toxic to fish (malaria drug), but it cannot be used in the presence of inverts, micro or macro algae. It gives some relief almost immediately (within hours) whereas copper actually makes things worse (hyper production of mucus) before it makes them better. This is one reason that the survival rate of fish infected with Amyloodinium and treated with copper is low.

“I cannot imagine that any one copper treatment is safer to use than any other. The difference between formulas is really just in the agents that are used to keep it in solution.�

I can’t speak for Seachem but they do claim that their product is unique. In my experience I would have to agree with them. I would never use anything else in a copper based medication. Then again, I don't have much use for copper anymore.

You asked for more information on beta glucan. Do you have access to scientific journals? You can find some info about using beta glucan for both human and veterinary medicine on the internet, but you may not find enough specifically about aquaculture. I can suggest some scientific literature. I will just give you a broad generalization here. It is a non-specific immune system stimulant. It has been shown to help fight viral, fungal, bacterial, parasitic and even against cancer and other abnormal growths. People are using it to lower their cholesterol. It works especially well in conjunction with other therapies such as antibiotic and enhances the effectiveness of vaccines (formalin killed antigens). I know this makes it sound like a cure all, but what it really does is make the immune system function better. It increases the size, activity and efficiency of white blood cells among other things. There is a huge amount of information available and it is really not something new at all. I have known about beta glucan for years and wondered in amazement as to why the general public is unaware of it. I guess there must not be a lot of money in selling it.

You stated as to HLLE:
“My feelings are that many factors are involved including stress, diet and other suspected routes such as stray voltage. This topic really begs for a large scale University study, however unless we can somehow convince the powers that be that it is important, it will not likely happen.�

I would agree that many factors seem to be involved. Its not likely that such a study is forthcoming since HLLE is not important in fish farming. I just finished a 4,700 word report (three articles) on my hypothesis of HLLE. I expect to hear back something this week about publishing it.


“I have seen no evidence of copper inducing HLLE in tangs in hundreds of specimens of species ranging from Sohal to Vlamingi. Yes it is true that copper is a"poison" to the specimen, but at proper levels it is used like chemotherapy is on human cancer. I don't recomend that fish only tanks be maintained at theraputic copper levels (>.15) for any more time than it takes to treat the disease (40 days). This is done by some but is surely hard on the specimens.�

It is difficult to document and prove the cause of HLLE since there are so many factors involved but I have seen a correlation between the use of copper and the incidences of HLLE, particularly in tangs.

I am familiar with what Horge wrote and have discussed it with him in detail. He doesn’t even suggest that garlic is a cure for ich. He actually just suggests the mechanisms for how and why it may work. I spoke several times over the phone with Kelli Jedlicki a couple of years ago. She sort of helped to popularize the use of garlic for treating ich a few years ago at one of the conferences. She told me that she believes it is a better preventative than a cure and uses copper and/or hyposalinity to treat a full-blown infection.

I would like to know where you are in Canada. Do you ever go to the Seattle area?
Best wishes,
Terry B