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-   -   Is this ich and how can I help him? (https://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167243)

Mr Bojangles 03/23/2003 11:54 PM

Is this ich and how can I help him?
 
well I got him a month ago and he was fine at the store, then at home he was fine. about 2 weeks ago he was stressed acording to the better half, she got him some good algae and it went away. Now he has more spots, smaller and many more! So I was hoping if I were to let this go by, if it would disaper again? (I did a search on it) Oh, all my numbers are the same and the only higher number is temp. My normal temp was 70~81, now its 80~83, and I was working on the new pump and spray bar yesterday so I was in there alot. Also if I had to treat him, would the best way to go to set up a 10g tank with a small filter and a NO light?

[IMG]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid56/p2542ceb7eaf7250be78298f32a897f44/fc74f5cf.jpg[/IMG]

Konadog 03/24/2003 12:32 AM

From what I can see, it looks like ick. You could try soaking nori in garlic extract. He also looks thin, the garlic may also stimulate his appetite.

Cloud_88 03/24/2003 12:36 AM

set up the 10 gallon and put some copper in there....if it gets worse go for the fresh water dip the garlic thing would work also

JohnL 03/24/2003 01:27 AM

Plenty of good info in this forum. Start with the threads at the top.

Mr Bojangles 03/24/2003 07:51 AM

where can I get this garlic extract stuff? would it be at the supermarket or in the LFS?

DgenR8 03/24/2003 10:05 AM

Don't treat a Tang with Copper. They have a more delicate system than many other fish, and copper does intestinal damage to Tangs.
If you can remove him to a hospital tank, that's an option, then he can be treated with hyposalinity.
Your fish does not look good in that picture, time is of the essance.
Read this here:
[url]http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html[/url]

and this...

[url]http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/weekly/aa102797d.htm[/url]

Mr Bojangles 03/24/2003 01:15 PM

Ok I am treating him with the garlic, but now they white spots are gone and they are brown spots on him? ***?

here how he looks now
[IMG]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid56/p3f489ecbaa902a3e6e9ffa759b0001c7/fc741f26.jpg[/IMG]

billsreef 03/24/2003 08:23 PM

Keep in mind that the life cycle of ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) is to fall off the fish (giving the appearance of the fish getting better) and reproducing in the substrate. After this it reinfects the fish even worse several days later (about 7-10 days). Hence any treatment regimen you try needs to run several weeks, at least 4 preferably. The dark spots are depigmention due to the attachment of the ich. Usually with clean water and good diet they will clear up soon after the ich is cured.

Mr Bojangles 03/24/2003 09:39 PM

ok, so basicaly I have to feed my tang garlic soaked algae for 7 weeks? If so looks like Im in for a fun time

JohnL 03/27/2003 09:20 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mr Bojangles [/i]
[B]ok, so basicaly I have to feed my tang garlic soaked algae for 7 weeks? If so looks like Im in for a fun time [/B][/QUOTE]

That plus some Selcon could work. The only guaranteed cures are discussed in the links at the top of the forum. Past threads on Ich. Bill has covered this at least 100 times by now :)

naesco 03/27/2003 10:05 PM

Your fish looks like it is starving.
Feed only garlic extract foods and feed it very often.
Also buy some selcon and soak the food with selcon as well.
Fatten up that tang and it will be healthy
Never Never buy a tang unless it is plump, clear eyes, eating aggressively and free of spots or tears or you are looking for problems.

Nray203 03/27/2003 10:15 PM

We had a purple tang with the same problem- After the advice on the board, we went with garlic. It's working great! We just bought some of the Sundown health suppliment kind at Wal-mart that has the gel inside (no odor) and some Formula TWO. It's been about 3 weeks and it shows up in a few dots and then goes away. The fish is healthy & eating like a pig.

OrionN 03/29/2003 12:49 AM

I agree with naesco that the tang show above is emaciated, starving tang. He is starving because his stomach is flat. He is also very thin. You need to feed him much more if you want him to get healthy. I would have food constantly in the tank for him. I have got tangs as thin as he is and nurse them back to health before. When they are in this condition, you have to feed them constantly- Stomach have to be full all the time.
I usually nurse my sick fish in my refugium full of algae and pods. My refugium is a place where he can get fast moving water, no competition or harassment from other fish. I also feed them two or three times per day with frozen food, and mysis, I also have a nori clip in the refugium that always have nori on it. My tangs get fat within 1 month when I put them in my refugium.
Good luck
Minh Nguyen

Mr Bojangles 03/29/2003 01:02 AM

well he looks much better:) he gets 2 meals a day of garlic soaked foods and he is dooing well. Thanks for the help! 6 more weeks of stinky garlic to go

Newflee 03/29/2003 02:17 AM

Just a couple notes:

I am the curator of a 41000 gallon marine tank and we treat all incoming fish regardless of species (except sharks of coarse) with copper sulfate for 30 days and praziquantel for 10 days. Tangs are not bothered any more than other species by copper as long as levels do not exceed .2 ppm We also feed garlic (fresh and very finely minced) with all feedings.
If I were you I would remove all the fish from your reef and quarantine them in copper sulfate for 30 to 40 days at .2ppm. Bring the copper levels up over a one week period. You must remove all fish from your tank for this period of time or you will never get it out of your tank. If the tank is free of fish for 40 days, the protazoa will not be able to complete it's life cycle.
I would also suggest that you freshwater dip (with temp and ph matched freshwater) for 8 minutes. This sounds like a long time but we fw dip everything for that period of time and have never ever lost a fish from dipping. This will relieve the fish of any of the Cryt that are already infesting the fish. Keep in mind that if you can see it on their flanks and fins, their gills are infested much worse. After all is said and done I would also recomend adding a few pacific cleaner wrasses to your reef.

Buk_A_neer 04/04/2003 04:53 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Newflee [/i]
[B]Just a couple notes:

praziquantel for 10 days. [/B][/QUOTE]

Can you tell me what this is please ?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Newflee [/i]
[B]Just a couple notes:

Tangs are not bothered any more than other species by copper as long as levels do not exceed .2 ppm [/B][/QUOTE]

Will the directions on Cupramine ( 2 drops per gallon first day / 1 drop per gallon 3 rd day ) give me .2 ppm ?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Newflee [/i]
[B]Just a couple notes:

I would also suggest that you freshwater dip (with temp and ph matched freshwater) for 8 minutes. [/B][/QUOTE]

Do you freshwater bath " before " the copper treatment or " after " the copper treatment ?

Cheers

Rasta

PS ... can copper be removed sufficiently with activated carbon to allow a hospital tank to be converted back to a reef tank ?

Newflee 04/04/2003 06:54 PM

Praziquantel is a drug that can be used to treat fish that have been aquired with flukes. Actually it illiminates the flukes but does nothing toward repairing the damage done by the flukes. It is a difficult drug to obtain (at least in the large quantities that I needed when treating 41000 gallons) but can be obtained from any Vet in the form of Droncit - a drug used to deworm dogs and cats. All that being said, you can accomplish the removal of flukes from fish quite successfully with the fresh water dip alone. I recomend you freshwater dip all new fish and those existing fish that show signs of flukes, c. irritans or amaloodinium. Brooklynella can also be treated in this manner but requires additional formalin dips. These dips only remove parasites from the fish dipped but do nothing to rid your tank of parasites not attached to the fish and in a different stage of the life cycle. To rid your tank of the pests you have to break the life cycle which can usually be accomplished by leaving the tank free of any and all fish for at least 40 days. For example if you have a reef tank with even one infected fish, you must remove all fish to a quarantine tank for treatment with copper and leave the reef fish free for 40 days. This is ok though because the copper treatment done properly will take 40 days aswell.
I can't recomend how to dose the copper treatment that you choose to use as all are a little different. Personally I make my own with copper sulphate and citric acid but no matter what formula you buy it is required that you test for copper levels. You need to get a copper test kit and test throughout the treatment period. If the level of copper is not maintained at the required level ( aprox. .18ppm ) it will not be effective. Equally important is to not overdose (above .25ppm) as it can kill your fish. You must also test every couple of days to make sure the level is maintained.

All of this info should be included with the product you choose. Do not buy a product that claims it may interfere with copper test kits (some do - check you Cupramine product). If it can't be tested for it's of no use.

Yes copper can be removed with Activated carbon but make sure you use the copper in a tank that has no calcarius substrate or rockwork. hese items suck in the copper and are very difficult to rid of copper later. Bare treatment tanks are best, with large pvc fittings as hiding places for your fish.

jamone 04/04/2003 07:02 PM

my naso tang that i bought from jeff's wasn't eating and noticed couple of white spots...

so i got kent's garlic extreme ...soaked nori.....pellets....brineshrimp in it before i fed.

also added couple of drops to sump every other day I am not feeding..

tang doing good and eating like a monster now.

JaM

Newflee 04/04/2003 07:22 PM

Yes I have used garlic with great success on c. irritans but it seems to be too slow to save anything suffering from Brook or oodinium.
Personally I use freshly crushed and very finely chopped garlic mixed with the food rather than the prepared products.
The most important active ingredient in garlic is produced by the plant in response to damage to its flesh and dissipated rapidly thus freshly chopped garlic seems to be the best route of delivery.

I know that some people if not most are reluctant to use copper but if you have enough invested in your display it becomes the only reasonable choice. Asuming that we all quarantine (which of course is not true), garlic can be used, but I can't take any chances and copper has proven to be safe when done properly. The only species that I have had real trouble with copper treatment is Moorish Idols. They turn off like a light switch within moments of being in a copper treated tank.
I can remember a time when shipments of fish were free of parasites but for the past few years, I have not recieved one that wasn't infested. We don't leave treatment up to our customers, but rather treat them completely before they are sold. All fish are quarantined for at least 40 days before sale and are certified free of parasites. This costs money but it is invaluable for people that do not have the facillities or patience to treat and quarantine their fish.

Buk_A_neer 04/04/2003 08:48 PM

One last question ( and thanks for your responses so far ) ... what method of filtration would you suggest for the hospital tank for the next 40 days ? ( 55 Gallon ) ... ( my reef tank is Live sand/rock and Beckett skimmer )

I have power heads and I was going to do regular water changes at the same time keeping copper in the replacement water ... do you have any other suggestions ?

TIA

Cheers

Rasta

Newflee 04/04/2003 09:10 PM

Well to be honest it is best to have already set up a quarantine tank with an aquaclear hang on or other cheap filter. Set up a 10-20 gallon quarantine like that with a damsel in it full time and you won't ever have a problem. Asuming you have not done that I would perhaps get an aquaclear filter or similar and put the biological media (sponge) in your overflow or sump for a few weeks to seed it. That is if you can wait for a few weeks before you start treatment. If you can't and if you feel you need to treat right away, you will have to do daily water changes and that is going to make your copper treatment challenging.
I think the first thing you need to do is determine what parisite your dealing with. If it is oodinium or Brook you'll need to move fast. If it's C. Irritans you can likely do a few things within your display over the next few weeks while you get a proper quarantine ready. Such things include: feeding garlic soaked food, lowering salinity and frequent substrate cleaning (daily).
C. Irritans looks like a speck of salt or large dust particle on the skin. It is usually noticed first on the fins and then migrates to the flanks. If it is a smaller speck that looks like a dusting almost sheeting the flanks you'll likely have oodinium and treatment is needed immediately. Whatever you have, if you can easily catch your fish (I suspect not), a freshwater dip will relieve them of what's eating them right now. Treatment can follow once you are more prepared.
What do you see?
Are the fish respiring rapidly?
Are they eating?
A word of warning. It may appear within the next few days to weeks that the parisite has gone away but it is merely in a different stage of life and will come back 100 fold. The only way to get rid of it entirely is to treat the fish and leave the display fish free as described previously.
Set up a proper quarantine, salvage what you can and learn a lesson. Never, ever, ever, put an unquarantined fish into your display.
Let me know what your fish look like currently.
Do you have a tank that can be set up permanently as a quarantine?

Buk_A_neer 04/04/2003 11:55 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Newflee [/i]
[B]Well to be honest it is best to have already set up a quarantine tank with an aquaclear hang on or other cheap filter. Set up a 10-20 gallon quarantine like that with a damsel in it full time and you won't ever have a problem. [/B][/QUOTE]

Too late I am afraid ... got 3 Heniochus diphreutes and did a freshwater bath on them prior to adding to display tank ( not for 8 minutes mind you ) and a couple days later here I am ... Yellow Tang / Purple Tang / Foxface / Copper Banded Butterfly / Ocelaris Clown / 5 Green Chromis and of course the 3 Heni's

Tried Kyolic Garlic soaked foods for a few days but got scared that I might loose my fish so dumped the gravel out of a 55 Gallon tank I was setting up for frags and added cupramine and tore down the rocks/corals to get the fish out. I have a aquaclear hang on from the freshwater days ... can I add some gravel from my sump to it to create a nitrifying bacteria ? ... Moved them today to the hospital tank.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Newflee [/i]
[B]

What do you see?
Are the fish respiring rapidly?
[/B][/QUOTE]

One of the Heni's is respiring rapidly

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Newflee [/i]
[B]
Are they eating?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Like pigs luckily :) ... have them all in the 55 and plan to get a copper test kit tomorrow ...

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Newflee [/i]
[B]
Let me know what your fish look like currently.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Looks like salt on the Tangs and dust/salt on the fins of the Heni's


Thanks a ton for your responses so far

Cheers

Rasta

Newflee 04/05/2003 12:55 AM

Those are some nice fish. I sorry that your in this situation but I bet you'll learn from it. The weird thing is I bet lots of people who read this won't.

As far as the gravel goes, I imagine it will help but it really isn't as porous as we'd like for n-bac. If you don't mind sacrificing worms and misc inverts you could just put your base rock that doesn't have anything on it in the quarantine. It's completely dependent on what you value more. Your rock or your fish. If you do this you will not be able to use it in your reef again, but you can keep it in your quarantine for future purchases.
Better yet I would see if one of your aquarium buddies or local fish store would spare you a sponge or such out of their biofilter to get your aquaclear going. Your LFS owes you that for not selling you clean fish or at least educating you on the risks. Don't bother trying to use someones bioballs as they dont have enough surface area for an aquaclear. You need sponge or something similar. Don't worry if the bio matter you borrow is suspected to come from an infected tank because the treatment you will be administering will take care of that. On that note I must also tell you that even established biofilters are stressed by copper treatment so obviously a really healthy one is advisable. In your case you'll have to take what you can get.
You must keep in mind that stress is a huge factor in how your fish will do under treatment. You must provide them a stress free environment with lots of hiding spots and safety. Once removed from the matrix of the reef many old friends will fight and you don't want that when they are already sick. Large pvc elbows, t's and pipes( 3 -6" diameter) make great plastic rockwork. Keep the tank very dimly lit and feed sparingly. If your guys are good eaters as you say, then cut back on the feeding and feed only garlic treated foods. Use fresh garlic very very finely chopped and mixed with whatever you feed. Most fish will eat the garlic itself. Prepared garlic products are not worth using IMO.
It sounds like you have C. Iritans for sure (which may not be a huge problem to solve), and perhaps oodinium (dusting) which copper takes care of but often not quickly enough to save the fish.
I feel you must treat promptly and if you need to do daily water changes for lack of a good biofilter just try to reduce the stress of your messing around as much as you can. As I mentioned earlier, if the Cu level drops below treatment levels (.15ppm) you may not be achieving anything.

One other important note: Your species are a little sensitive to any stress and therefore I recomend you bring the copper levels up slowly over a period of a week. Cu is chemotherapy and if not done properly it can kill your mates. It's not rocket science but be carefull and prudent.
After you have gone through all this, go in and give your LFS S**T for leaving you out in the rain.


One other note: add airstones to the quarantine. The primary stress that these bugs put on the fish is via the gills. Eventually they cannot get oxygen. Extra aeration will help with that as well as boost the growth of whatever biofilter you use.

TerryB 04/05/2003 03:28 AM

Newflee,
If you like to talk about fish disease and treatment then I would love to chat with you. Maybe even do the Instant message thing.
I think that you give good advice but I my opinions differ in some respects. Personally, I see little use for copper anymore since hyposalinity at 14-16ppt salinity will cure Cryptocaryon irritans very well and without any of the drawbacks to copper treatment. I wouldn't even use copper for Amyloodinium anymore. Chloroquine phosphate works so much faster for Amyloodinium. One of the nice things about hyposalinity is that it does help with some other types of external parasites (even flukes) which may make it unnecessary to use praziquantel unless you are using it for some sort of internal parasite. I prefer formalin dips over FW dips. If you really like copper then Cupramine by Seachem is THE best IMO. I have used Cupramine with copper sensitive species such as small angels, lionfish and mandarins and they came through just great. You do have to use Cupramine at a higher dose. The instructions suggest .5 ppm (not .05 ppm). I have found that .4 ppm works quite well with it.
I am currently researching the use of Beta glucan as an immunostimulant in fish. I have personally used the stuff for myself for years and I have fed it to fish. It works very well in stimulating macrophage spreading and size. Some say it increases macrophage numbers also.
I would be interested in your thoughts on HLLE. Ever considered the idea of it being an autoimmune disease brought on by chronic stress? Where are you in Canada? I live in Washington State.
Before I forget, it looks like the tang needs more frequent feedings. Personally, I do not like to use copper with tangs, in part because I believe it can induce HLLE and is a known immune system suppressant. Tangs do very nicely in hypo. You need a very accurate hydrometer or a refractometer and monitor the pH and alk daily during hyposalinity therapy. The pH tends to fall so add a buffer as needed. Do you feed the tang frozen spirulina? Formula two is another good food for them. Oh, I think garlic is a better preventive than a cure for ich. It does work well to clear out some internal parasites but doesn’t appear to work really consistently for ich. Maybe everyone having their own dosage has something to do with it.
Take care,
Terry B

Newflee 04/05/2003 11:56 AM

Hi Terry,
Thanks for your input. I agree that hyposalinity will work on C. Irritans a lot of the time but it is my belief that it cannot 'cure" a tank or fish of the disease. There has been much evidence that the critter in its other less visible stages of life can live in near fresh water. In other words, you may appear to have cured it but still have a ticking time bomb. My experience has shown copper treatment done at proper levels for the proper amount of time to be the only cure.
I used to feel quite strongly against copper treatrment for fear of residual effects on the specimen, however since having the responsability of keeping parisites out of a 41000 gal display, I have had to overcome that fear. Why you ask. Well, one of the mechanisms by which hyposalinity appears to work is the rapid lowering of salinity. Since we use only RO water (1200 gal / day) we cannot lower nearly quickly enough. In our situation we have to quarantine and treat with whatever is known to work. A mistake in judgement could potentially put over 400 fish of 60 species in peril. We have recently introduced C. Irritans to the display for the first time in 4 years despite or quarantine proceedures and treatment. How this happened I cannot explain other than it may have been passed from our larval rearing and rotifer cultures that are contained within the same building and not treated. Due to the fact that we have sharks, we cannot use copper in the display and therefore have gone the garlic route. Using fresh garlic very heavily we have C. Irritans visibly taken care of. Unfortunately we will have to live with the fact that it still lives in the tank and must be controlled. Fortunately we did not find signs of oodinium, as my experience has shown garlic to be not effective. In that case we would have no choice but to remove the sharks and treat with copper.

"I wouldn't even use copper for Amyloodinium anymore. Chloroquine phosphate works so much faster for Amyloodinium."

This is interesting to me and I would like to hear more about this.

"I have used Cupramine with copper sensitive species such as small angels, lionfish and mandarins and they came through just great. You do have to use Cupramine at a higher dose. The instructions suggest .5 ppm (not .05 ppm). I have found that .4 ppm works quite well with it."

I don't have any documented experience with anything other than my own formula. This is simply because the volume I need makes my methods worthwhile. I cannot imagine that any one copper treatment is safer to use than any other. The difference between formulas is really just in the agents that are used to keep it in solution. The method that I use is completely predictable and very easily removed from the system . Most importantly it will not interfere with Hach Colorimeter testing. I have seen some products that will interfere - Cupramine may be fine.

"I am currently researching the use of Beta glucan as an immunostimulant in fish. I have personally used the stuff for myself for years and I have fed it to fish. It works very well in stimulating macrophage spreading and size. Some say it increases macrophage numbers also"
I don't know anything about this but I would like to hear more.

"I would be interested in your thoughts on HLLE. Ever considered the idea of it being an autoimmune disease brought on by chronic stress? Where are you in Canada? I live in Washington State."

I feel that HLLE is the most important mystery to crack at this time. I personally have never found it to be a problem in a reef tank and have also seen yellow tangs recover completely from HLLE and bleaching once placed within a mature reef. My feelings are that many factors are involved including stress, diet and other suspected routes such as stray voltage. Since clealy not all reef tanks that I have worked with are likely free of stray voltage I put that source lower on the list of causes. I should say though that we were able to arrest HLLE in the 41000 gal display with the addition of groud probes and no other changes. This topic really begs for a large scale University study, however unless we can somehow convince the powers that be that it is important, it will not likely happen.

"Personally, I do not like to use copper with tangs, in part because I believe it can induce HLLE and is a known immune system suppressant. Tangs do very nicely in hypo."

I have seen no evidence of copper inducing HLLE in tangs in hundreds of specimens of species ranging from Sohal to Vlamingi. Yes it is true that copper is a"poison" to the specimen, but at proper levels it is used like chemotherapy is on human cancer. I don't recomend that fish only tanks be maintained at theraputic copper levels (>.15) for any more time than it takes to treat the disease (40 days). This is done by some but is surely hard on the specimens.


"It does work well to clear out some internal parasites but doesn’t appear to work really consistently for ich. Maybe everyone having their own dosage has something to do with it."

I can only say that it appears to have worked in the large display for several months now. I believe that it will never be illiminated without the use of copper but when circumstances make copper treatment difficult, it may be the only answer. Of course Hyposalinity can be used in concert as you suggest.
Regarding the use of garlic and the best delivery system of the active ingredients, here is a good piece. Some of you may have already read it but for those who are buying prepared garlic products it is a good read.

[url]http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html[/url]

Tery, drop me a line at [email]maternick@shaw.ca[/email] and let me know more about Chloroquine phosphate.

Regards,
Lee


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