Alkalinity, Mg and electricity

[Reefist]

I am having difficulty keeping up my Mg and Alk and was wondering if stray electricity could affect either or both? I've tried adding Tech-M and Superbuffer-dkh and both readings remain low. Mg is 980 and alk is 6dkh. This has been going on for quite a while. The only time the readings are close to normal is after a waterchange but that lasts only a day or two. I did feel a tinge of electricity in a cut on my finger when I put my hand in the sump. That brought me to this question. And since the term alkaline battery came to mind I wondered.

[bertoni]

No, stray electricity shouldn't cause problems with alkalinity.

Having to dose alkalinity daily is very normal for tanks, so you probably just need to add more to the tank regularly. For a 120g tank, limewater is a good approach. For the short term, you could try a 2-part like B-Ionic or a similar product. There's also a DIY recipe, which will save money. This article covers all your choices:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

For the short term, I'd dose the alkalinity up to 9 dKH or so. I'd also dose Mg to 1275 ppm or so, but no more than 100ppm increase per day. This calculator should help with a dose size:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

[Reefist]

Okay thanks.Can you think of any reason Alk additions and Mg addition would not change my readings after 3 days of additions?
Is ther something that can precipitate additions? My tests kit are Hach alk and Salifert Mg and are relatively new. I do want to get a new Mg testkit but I'd like to get a Hach do you know the number of that kit ? There are so many and I don't know the differences.
Tom

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you think of any reason Alk additions and Mg addition would not change my readings after 3 days of additions?

It takes far more magnesium additive than you probably think to make a difference, and you probably just did not add enough (regardless of what a bottle may say).

The calculator linked above shows how much you need.

Alkalinity drops every day in a reef aquarium. So if you make a small boos tone day, it will often be gone by the next. Again, the calculator shows how much you need to boost levels.

[Reefist]

Okay Now my Alk is 11.4 dKH but my Mg is still only 980 and my Ca
is 385 but my pH is 8.5 so I cant add anything with out going over that.This is the same problem I had when using my Ca reactor the ph was always 8.5 but the Alk would drop off and Ca would stay high. Then I switched to Kalk and my ph came down but my alk would stay low and my Mg would deplete. The only time my readings would be normal would be the next 3-4 days after a water change. And hey I've been doing this for 11 years.
Hopefully my ph in the morning will be lower and I can add some more Tech-M.Funny thing is my tank looks good but I can never keep any sps. Its mostly softies and a clam that's limping.

[atvdave]

My Mag was down to about 1000 when I got a 250g bottle of Sachem adv mag.

It took almost 2 weeks, and the complete bottle to get it up to 1300.

It just takes time.. keep dosing it little at a time and it will get there.

[jdieck]

Tech - M will not afect the PH, The PH rise came from the superbuffer dKh so you can add the Tech-M any time, just do not increase it too much too fast. Try no more than 100 ppm every time so you will need about three doses equivalent to an increase of 100 ppm each.

[neuroslicer]

Are you sure you've got stray electricity? There are times when I've felt a tingle in the water, but realized that in fact it was probably released nematocysts (stinging cells) from my coral rather than stray electricity.

[Reefist]

Yes it is definitley electricity. I found out when I pulled the plug on my Seio pump in the sump the pH changes like from 8.4 to 7.8.
Besides I felt it. I've been zapped many times.
As far as the Mg, the posted calculator says I have to add 90 oz.s of Tech-M. But I have already added 9 doses of 1oz but I have not seen any increase . Is says on the bottle 39ppm/oz.I have checked my water change water and the Mg is 1100 . So the test kit should be close.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8796589#post8796589 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefist
Yes it is definitely electricity. I found out when I pulled the plug on my Seio pump in the sump the pH changes like from 8.4 to 7.8.
Besides I felt it. I've been zapped many times.
As far as the Mg, the posted calculator says I have to add 90 oz.s of Tech-M. But I have already added 9 doses of 1oz but I have not seen any increase . Is says on the bottle 39ppm/oz.I have checked my water change water and the Mg is 1100 . So the test kit should be close.

First for safety sake if you have identified the defective equipment take it off line right away. Electricity and salt water are never a good mix and Rios are well known for having shorted several aquariums.

On the Mg side a couple of comments
a) 90 Oz seems high for an increase of 300 ppm 120 gal tank what is you actual water volume? (Say if you have a 120 with a couple of inches off the top live Rock, sand and a 50 gal sump half full your actual volume might be around 130 gallons)

b) Can you clarify the 39 ppm/Oz? Usually it mentions either 1 ml/gal will increase 18.3 ppm or 1 ml/gal will increase 39.1 ppm.
Is there a confusion here between Ounces and milliliters?

As per my estimate you need about 75 Fl Ounces of Tech M (1 ml/gal for 18.3 ppm) to increase 130 Gal of water from 980 ppm to 1300 ppm, If that is your volume I would recommend to apply three doses of 25 Ounces (750 ml) every other day and test in between.
Note that this dose is at the rate of 1 ml/gal increases 18.3 ppm
There seems to be some old bottles out there that mention 39.1 instead of 18.3 ppm per ml per gal but seems to have been a typo in the label and the product never had that concentration but just in case check after the first application of 25 Ounces. at 18 ppm the increase should be close to 100 ppm if higher than that then the 39 is real and then the second and third doses have to be adjusted.
The actual concentration is 70,000 ppm This is 70 ppm of cationic Magnesium per milliliter of supplement so one milliliter shall increase one gallon by approximately 18.4 ppm (70/3.7856) not 39.1 ppm as some bottles may say.

[GrowDammit]

Thanks for all of the information!!! Glad I came across this thread! Happy Holidays

[jdieck]

Happy Holidays to you too.
Enjoy!

[GrowDammit]

Okay, well I've been trying to gradually up my calcium following Anthony Calfo's method of a Kalkwasser slurry. We turned down the calcium reactor, to account for the moderate alkalinity supplementation in the addition of the Kalk. I've been monitoring Ca, Mg & Alkalinity. Over the past two weeks, the Alkalinity has increased to 5.6 mEq, the calcium had gone up to 260 ppm, but won't budge a bit higher and the Mg went from 900 to 1050 and won't go higher.

I have ~ 255 gallon of capacity and a TON of quickly growing SPS frags with beautiful coloration. I use IO salt mix and supplement Lugol's, Tech M and kalk. I ran out of Tech M (was finishing up the bottle and had planned on switching to another brand that was more cost effective) and went to my supplier to pick up Seachem Reef Advantage Magnesium, after reading that it was fairly cost effective on a few forums and I trust the brand. Upon reading the label, I found something that in all of my searching regarding my current chemistry issue, I had never read before. Seachem is quoted on the label as saying that dosing kalkwasser will decrease your tank's magnesium levels.

On first thought, I'm imagining that this is due to the fact that it probably precipitates out. However, I have used this kalk slurry method for several years and never had this problem. If anything in the past, before switching back to IO from Kent salt mix, I had a problem with my Mg getting to high.

HELP??? Figures that this has to happen the week before the Holidays. My corals do not seem adversely affected currently, but I don't want to le this go out of whack any further!
Thanks
Danielle

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Okay, well I've been trying to gradually up my calcium following Anthony Calfo's method of a Kalkwasser slurry. We turned down the calcium reactor, to account for the moderate alkalinity supplementation in the addition of the Kalk. I've been monitoring Ca, Mg & Alkalinity. Over the past two weeks, the Alkalinity has increased to 5.6 mEq, the calcium had gone up to 260 ppm, but won't budge a bit higher and the Mg went from 900 to 1050 and won't go higher.

There is no form of balanced calcium and alkalinity method (like the limewater) that is suitable for boosting calcium by large amounts because the alkalinity will try (and fail) to go through he roof. The fail parts means it will mostly end up as precipitated calcium carbonate and calcium cannot rise.

You need a calcium only supplement, like calcium chloride.

[Reefist]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8797272#post8797272 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
so one milliliter shall increase one gallon by approximately 18.4 ppm (70/3.7856) not 39.1 ppm as some bottles may say.

Your right. I had an old dosing bottle that fills up an ounce at a time and I wrote a long time ago"+39.1 ppm/oz" which was wrong then and is now. Thanks for the correction. The Tech-m I have now says what you said.Not only have a switched to kalk a year ago because of the high pH but I switched to Oceanic salt which my new mix of 40G reads1100mg so the combo could be why it depleted. I don't know anything about chemistry but is it possible if you reach saturation levels of Ca and Alk that you could get high pH readings. I'd like to try my reactor again but I've taken it off line several times because of high pH. Calibrations,new probes all preceeding.
Thanks
Tom

[jdieck]

Tom I am a bit confused by the posting so let me try to clarify.
First you mention Oceanic new mised salt (You mean freshly made salt water?) has 1100 ppm magnesium. I am surprized to see Mg that low in Oceanic which is usually above 1400 ppm unless your reding is off or you might be mixing at lower than typical salinity. Well there is always a chance Oceanic changing the formulation or having one of those off spec batches.

Regarding the Calcium and Alkalinity, if in a sense you reach or exceed saturation the Calcium and Alkalinity will precipitate as caclium carbonate and the levels will deplete back down again.
This could happen also at high PH.
When using a reactor high PH usually is more a result of how fast you add the lime water rather than how much of it you add.

For the time being if your Magnesium is still low try keep on adding the required supplement to increase it.
If your PH is high and you still need to increase Alkalinity you can use baking soda to do so.
Once your parameters are on target you may try to continue adding the Kalk, try to set it in a way that it is added slowly. If using a reactor the most effective way is to use a doser pump as it can limit the speed of addition, If you use a powerhead or directly feed from an RO/DI unit, the amount added at once every time your top off turns onn could be too much too fast.

[Reefist]

Yes this is from a fresh mix of RODI and Oceanic. I am going to get a new Mg test kit but this one is about a year old.
As far as the reactor I was talking about a Calcium reactor which most people have low pH problems but not me. My ph lowered when I switched to Kalk. Why I have no idea. Right now I have a 5G bucket with a circulation pump that I add Kalk to that has another pump hooked up to a float in the sump. It adds about an ounce at a time but the ph was usually 8.2 and I never saw it go over 8.5 so I think thats ok. Since my Mg is still 980 I'm going to do a 40G water change. The makeup water is 1100 so it has to help. Then in a few days I'll try the reactor again and I can monitor effluent and actual water parameters and maybe then you can help me more. Thanks for the info so far
Tom

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8801667#post8801667 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GrowDammit
I ran out of Tech M (was finishing up the bottle and had planned on switching to another brand that was more cost effective) and went to my supplier to pick up Seachem Reef Advantage Magnesium, after reading that it was fairly cost effective on a few forums and I trust the brand.
Danielle

A little comparison here:

From on line prices (ex-shipping)

1 gallon of Tech-M $18.95 = 0.50 cents per ml
1.2 Kg of Seachem's $8.95 = 0.75 cents per gram

5.4 ml of Tech M = 4.75 grams Seachem = 100 ppm increase in 1 gal of aquarium water.

Cost of Tech-M to increase 100 ppm in 1 gal = 2.7 cents (5.4 x 0.5)
Cost of Seachem to increase 100 ppm in 1 gal = 3.5 cents (4.75 x 0.75) so aprox 30% higher cost.

Oc course this ratio may change depending on where you buy and if you can get them on sale or not. Tech-M being heavier might also have a higher shipping cost.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8802978#post8802978 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefist
As far as the reactor I was talking about a Calcium reactor which most people have low pH problems but not me. My ph lowered when I switched to Kalk. Why I have no idea. Right now I have a 5G bucket with a circulation pump that I add Kalk to that has another pump hooked up to a float in the sump. It adds about an ounce at a time but the ph was usually 8.2 and I never saw it go over 8.5 so I think thats ok. Since my Mg is still 980 I'm going to do a 40G water change. The makeup water is 1100 so it has to help. Then in a few days I'll try the reactor again and I can monitor effluent and actual water parameters and maybe then you can help me more. Thanks for the info so far
Tom Neither the Calcium reactor nor the lime water will add the necessary Magnesium, to rise it, you will need to supplement.
Regarding rector and PH behaviour I will let Randy try to answer that one as my experience has been the opposite.
I do not know if this might have some effect but if you stir the Kalk mix too much (like with the circulation pump being on too long or too often) then it reacts with the CO2 in the air forming Calcium Carbonate reducing it's effectiveness as a supplement.

[Reefist]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8803111#post8803111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck

I do not know if this might have some effect but if you stir the Kalk mix too much (like with the circulation pump being on too long or too often) then it reacts with the CO2 in the air forming Calcium Carbonate reducing it's effectiveness as a supplement.
See now this isn't something I thought of . I never saw (realtime)a Neilson reactor. My circulation pump pumps constantly. I don't think the rio I have in there would start if I unplugged it . Should I have a pump on some kind of timer. Honestly I dump about 2 tbsps of kalk mixed in a cup of RODI water and throw it in the bucket ever few days. Its constantly circling like a toilet bowl:)
The float turns on another pump. And I'm assuming this is wrong

[bertoni]

I just stir my limewater for a few seconds. That's all it takes to dissolve it. If the limewater is being circulated, it'll lose effectiveness fairly rapidly.

[Reefist]

When it loses its effectiveness will the ph of the mix still be over 12?

[jdieck]

My friend, I have the feeling you are just making and adding more sand to your system :D

[Reefist]

Okay so what is the purpose of the stirrer on a reactor? And what are the stirring intervals? After 11 years I feel like I'm going backwards.
Tom

[bertoni]

The stirring in a reactor is useful to dissolve more lime when more water is added. The stirring time would depend on the size of the water reservoir and the stirring action, but for my 5g jugs, not much is needed.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8805226#post8805226 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefist
Okay so what is the purpose of the stirrer on a reactor? And what are the stirring intervals? After 11 years I feel like I'm going backwards.
Tom

There is a large difference between a reactor and a reservoir.
In an open reservoir is you stir you get CO2 from the air into the solution, for a reservoir the best it to stirr it at the begining then cover it and leave it undisturbed until the solution above the sediment is consummed and time to prepare a new batch.

In a reactor there is no air as the reactor is sealed from surounding air. In a reactor there is excess lime, as you add new water, the mixing will dissolve some of that excess to saturate the newly added water until eventually the excess gets consummed and the reactor has to be refilled.

[Csxno1]

Randy,
This system is to have a 250 gallon tank added to it shortly (in about 2 months max.) for a Reef display/grow out and then the current 180 will be frag only grow out. It has a 100 gallon sump, currently, do not see any possibility to upgrade to a larger one.
With all of the plumbing being 2", save for a few feet of 3" for a return, we'll have a bit of additional water moving through there. We are anticipating this system to be about 500 gallons, after sand and final live rock additions are taken into consideration.

What is your best recommendation for maintaining Mg, Ca & Alkalinity, in addition to the dual chamber calcium reactor we are currently running? Is there a one shot deal-type additive, or are we best to just purchase additives in bulk and DIY reactors, etc. My husband is ready to build a kalk reactor anytime. And looking for any excuse to use his plethera of powertools.

I added my first dose of Reef Advantage Magnesium this evening when the lights came on at 7 pm. Then the Reef Advantage Calcium at about 11:30 pm. I tested the Calcium level before dosing, it was 250 mEq/L. That's the highest it has been without having dosed kalk in about 24 hours. Yesterday it was 230 before I dosed.
I also have a mated pair of Chrysopterus Clowns with a Bubble-tip Anemone, a yellow tang and a sixline wrasse in this system. Didn't think it would make a difference one way or the other, but thought I should mention them.

Have a great holiday.

[Csxno1]

Sorry this computer is signed in under my husband's ID. :(
Danielle
GrowDammit

[bertoni]

Okay, I'm confused as to who is posting what about which tank.

Here's a DIY recipes for magnesium supplements:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-07/rhf/index.php

This article discusses a DIY 2-part calcium and alkalinity supplement:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

This calculator should help with picking a dose:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

I wouldn't move magnesium or calcium by more than 100 ppm per day.

I would use those supplements if the reactor can't keep up.

[GrowDammit]

Sorry to cause confusion. :)

Thank you for the link on the Magnesium DIY information. It was very helpful and brought up a question in my mind. I need to ask my husband what type of reactor media he used last time he changed it. I'm a bad aquarist. He changes the media and cleans the skimmers, as I'm too short to get it done in an efficient time. I feed, do chemistry testing, supplementation, partials, monitor spawnings/repro, etc.

I know that the last time he changed the calcium reactor's media he only had enough of our standard to fill one chamber and subsituted crushed coral into the other. I'm not sure of the brand. And while this is most likely, NOT the sole reason for our current situation. It may be a contributing factor, in combination with my kalkwasser dosing.

Thank you Jonathon. Those articles filled in some of the blanks and answered questions that the others had triggered.
Sincerely,
Danielle