Death Tank - need help

[daven]

I have a problem tank and need help. Although a newby I have done extensive research and reading before even starting this tank (three months prior to starting). Have read all the books (Spring, Tullock, and more), extensive internet reading and I live on reefcentral for a couple hours a day. Still, I have a death tank. Here is my story.

Tank is a 29g Oceanic Biocube. Didn't like the filters on the unit so I took them out and dropped in a Fluval 2 submersible (fits and works great). I set it up with 40 lbs of live sand (about 3 inches). Used Kent Stability to help cycle, use Tropic Marin salt and use Prime whenever I do water changes (3 gallons weekly). Have about 20 lbs of live rock and 10+ of base rock. Until tank cycled I did water tests every other day. Saw the spike and waited another week, then weekly water tests (ammonia 0, nitrate and nitrate 0, ph 8, sg 1.025, water temp varies between 79.5 and 82). Added cleaning crew, currently

5 hermits, 3 astrea snails, 6 cerith snails, 5 nassarius snails, 2 mithrax crabs, cleaner shrimp

Then I added the fish (not all at once, over about 5 weeks).

Starry Blenny, Flame Angel, Yellow Watchman and pistol shrimp, Royal Gramma

Had a little bit of a hair algea problem so I put in Chemi-pure in the Fluval.

Then I started to have a problem. The Gramma died, two days later the Blenny died (I think, there was never any trace of him in filters, tank or outside tank, just gone, hard to miss in a 29(. Talked to LFS constantly (very good guy I must say). Had water tested by them and another LFS. We added a red Sailfin tang he had for 5 months. Things seemed find, all fish eating (pellets and frozen mycin shrimp). Three days later the Yellow Watchman, Flame Angel and Tang were struggling, breathing hard. Rushed Tang and Angel (couldn't get Yellow) to LFS to put in a "good" tank. They died. Nothing noticable on the Flame but the Tangs fins looked ragged and he had a small gash on him. Tested water myself and had LFS do it. All good (0 ammonia, 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite, 8 ph). Yellow Watchman and all inverts continued to live.

After discussions we decided it had to be a bacterial infection. Decided to start treating the tank (this was same day as the fish died). Used Melafix for 7 days. Used Mardel Maracyn (saltwater) for prescribed 5 days. Waited a week. LFS gave me a starry blenny and another sailfin tang (no cost). I also bought a Pygmy Angel. Angel went into quarantine tank. Did a 25% water change. Put the blenny and Tang in 29g at 9pm (1.5 hour acclimation). Next morning blenny was dead. Tank appeared fine, swimming around tank. No eating observed. Next morning, you guessed it, Tang dead. Yellow Watchman is doing fine as are all the inverts.

Deaths so far - 2 starry blenny, 1 flame angel, 1 royal gramma, 2 sailfin tang

So, what do I do now with this death tank? Any suggestions as to what is causing this? How to remedy? Do I need to tear down and start again?

Yes, I know - quarantine tank from now on. ALready operating.

[mb5322]

My immediate thought is stray voltage, but what do I know, and I wouldn't have added all those chemicals, but again I'm a very "as natural as humanly possible kinda guy" just my thoughts.


OH and that tank is entirely to small for a sail fin, thats the equivalent to you living in a 2x2 closet.

[daven]

The sailfin were both small and the 29 was just a stopping place until my 180 is ready. Was there for help with the small hair algae outbreak.

I don't like adding the chemicals but then again, something was obviously wrong. What would have been the natural recommendation.

Electrical - could be. Two submerged pumps. Doesn't help explain the Yellow Watchman living and thriving unless they are less susceptible.

[daven]

Oh, one thing that was missing and my signature is a little misleading. The tank is about 4.5 months old at this point.

[Shagsbeard]

Don't add anything to a tank that you're not testing for.

Start using RO/DI water instead of conditioned tap.

The flame angel and tang need more room for them to be happy... find a stock list more suitable for a 30 gal... or better yet, pretend your tank is only 20.

I'd get another 10 pounds of live rock, and a detrivore kit and let it get established in the tank for at least two months... not to cycle, but just to establish itself before you start dumping in preditors.

[techigirl78]

Are all the inverts still alive? There's a few things that may be causing problems. Predators come to mind if fish are mutalated or missing - Mantis shrimp, isopods, etc. Also, do you have a lot of surface agitation of the water? May be an oxygen problem.

Sorry to say this, but it also seems you are adding way to many fish way to fast. Usually one fish per month is a good rule of thumb.

Also, tangs, especially sailfin tangs, need to have larger tanks then 29 gallon. I would take tangs off of your list of fish to get unless you upgrade. Checking websites like liveaquaria.com or books will give you a good idea of what size tank is appropriate for fish you are interested in getting.

Further, it is usually best to add angelfish after your tank has been established for 6 months or more. They are more delicate and susceptible to disease, changes in PH, etc. You'll have better luck with them if you wait a little while on getting them.

[daven]

Use RO/DI water. Forgot to mention the bristle worms.

Inverts are still alive as is the yellow watchman. Not predators - no indications other than one small gash.

Thought about the oxy problem. Threw an airstone in (should have mentioned).

The initial fish were added over a 3 month period.

Tank size specified on Liveaquaria:

Flame Angel: 30 gal
Starry Blenny: 30 gal
Yellow Watchman: 10 gal
Royal Gramma: 30 gal

Yes, tang and angel were just temporary until the 180 cycles. The first tang lived in a 10 gal tank at LFS for 5 months.

I am skeptical that the stocking is what is killing the fish almost overnight.

[daven]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8676485#post8676485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shagsbeard
Don't add anything to a tank that you're not testing for.



What does this mean?

[tedmc2]

You've gotten off to a rough start with the fish. I'd suggest a good 1/3 water change (10 gal), maybe a ground probe and not adding any new fish for at least a month. Wait and see what happens.

Sounds like you've got a good LFS but you might want to try fish from someplace else.

Also, IMO, avoid buying fish with the notion that they will be going into a lager tank once it is set-up. Wait until the lager tank is set-up and then introduce your fish into their permanent home.

Ted

[daven]

I just ordered the probe.

I'll do the 10 gal change this weekend and am thinking on doing a large change for three weeks following.

I'll buy the next fish from my #2 choice LFS.

I wasn't comfortable with the Tangs and moving but LFS thought it was okay and would be good to get all the algae out. I'll stick with your advice.

I'm not adding any new fish to the tank until I figure out what is causing the deaths. Had a thought of adding a Damsel in a month just to check things out (yes, I know, hard to get out again) and if it does I'm only out $4 and I'll just give up and tear the tank down and start again.

[BreefMe]

It sounds a bit like an over-population issue. In a 29 gallon tank the maximum recommended fish length (in total of all fish) would be 6 inches. To go beyond that would stress the system unless you beef up the filtration and add some kind of oxygen injection system.

Also, are you using any kind of protein skimmer - might be OK here since you said your nitrate was 0.

[edwing206]

the inches per gallon is not a good rule to go by because it doesn't take into account what the fish's eating habits are, how much food they produce and other things like that.

[mpd525]

i'm hitchiking this thread, i'm having similar problems, i've lost a ton of fish in the 6 months. i've only got 2 in their now. a maroon clown, and a bi-color dottyback. and i think my dotty is dying on me. what's bad is i've had these 2 for about 2 months.i've lost a small tang, fire fish, gobies, you name it i've lost it. and most of the time for unknown reasons. i'm ready to tear down also, and start over.

[LionfishFinatic]

I second the mantis notion. also, since the tang was in such a small tank, that maybe he spined the other fish while turning around or something. But that still doesn't solve the problem of why the tang died. Hmm this is hard :lol:. What are your water Params? i guess i will tag along to try and helpl you. HTH so far lol

[fishox]

Someone mentioned stray voltage above. I had a heater break in my sump that I didn't know about. I couldn't figure out why I got shocked every time I touched the water. After more than a week of having electric current run through my tank I finally found the source. My point, finally, is that the voltage didn't kill any fish. It cost me my anemone, snails and some (but not all) hermits. In summary, my experience shows fish can tolerate the voltage much better than the inverts can. Just my experience.

[daven]

Reply to multiple questions:

Water params are all nominal (posted earlier) and tested by me plus two LFS.

I don't think it is a mantis. Fist are dying overnight (or two nights for hardier fish) with no marks. Yellow Watchman has survived the whole time.

Last fish kill was a small sailfin tang and blenny. Total fish length was under 6. I under stand that bioloading concept and don't really subscribe to total length. Even so, I don't see it killing fish overnight, especially with the Yellow Watchman surviving.

I'll add a grounding probe but I am not noticing any shocking when I put hand in. In fact, I'll disconnect and remove the Fluval filter (submersible) and just go with the original pump as the only possible electrical source to test.

Unfortunately the only way to do this somewhat scientifically is to change one factor and put a new fish in. Sorta sucks being the sacrificial guinea fish.

[6stang9]

is the fluval 2 the only source of flow? what are the dimentions of this tank? and i dont think you should use prime(isnt that to lock up ammonia) if you use rodi water for changes.

[daven]

The biocube has a pump that provides water flow. I added the Fluval2 because I didn't like the replaceable cartridge filters that the unit uses. They cost a lot, don't fit well and seem to clog too fast. I quit using those and dropped the fluval into the small overflow chamber. It now filters all the water and moves it into the bioball area. It will function without the fluval if I go back to the filters.

Tank size is essentially 2x2x2. 29 g,

Prime - right, for ammo lock, chlorine, chloramine. I am using rodi. Started with prime in new water before change on recommendation of LFS when starting to try and fix this problem.

[reefshadow]

You mentioned the fact that your fish were 'struggling and breathing hard' then died over night. This IME would point to a potential problem with a lower ph/oxygen at night coupled with a rise in co2, and perhaps a long cycling problem caused by too many additions too fast. I would doubt a predator is involved based on the symptoms you describe.

My suggestions would be to monitor the ph. Check it right before the lights go off, then first thing before they come on. You may see a big difference. Checking alkalinity and buffering if necessary would also be my recommendation. The suggestion to cause more surface agitation is a good one, this can decrease co2 and increase ph and oxygen.

Add only one fish at a time and wait a long period before each new addition. I also agree that your tank was overstocked for sure. I would add no more than 2 or possibly 3 small fish to a 30 gallon.

Personally I believe you would do much better skipping the meds and opting for small frequent water changes instead. Getting to the source of the problem is always better than treating the symptoms, and sometimes meds can have unforseen consequences, like effecting the oxygen levels/ph -maracyn is notorious for this-, making your skimmer go nuts, ect ect. The money would be better spent on water changes, equipment upgrades, ect.

Do you have a skimmer? Besides removing organics from the system they also help alot to oxygenate the water and blow off co2. I am not a big fan of bioballs or really any media that sits there long term. They trap organics and are great breeding grounds for nitrifying bacteria, but trapping orgnics is not what you want. Removing them altogether from the system is best, you will grow plenty of bacs in the sand/rock. If you do decide to get rid of the bioballs and get a skimmer if you don't have one, remove them slowly, as you can cause a spike in amm, nitrite from removing them too fast.

Take things very slow. Continue with the water changes, watch your parameters, and wait until you see signs that the tank is stabilized. A good indication is alot of active microfauna; like pods, sponges, ect.... things growing and doing well.

As you are now I would wait at least a month before you add anything. Just do small frequent w/c's and watch your params to get a better handle on what is going on.

Good Luck

[6stang9]

excellent advise from reefshadow. i also believe over stock is one of the problems. dont treat water with prime when you do water changes. if its the same as amquel it is just prolonging your cycle. also if you have poor flow over and through your live rock this could do more damage than good. and get rid of bioballs slowly for sure

[daven]

The medication was discontinued two weeks ago.

Always change at least 10% weekly. Once a month its 25%

Added a grounding probe. Increased surface agitation.

No skimmer. No room for one in this setup unless I remove the bio balls or add a sump (which I have been thinking about).

Everrything is going through a quarantine tank for a minimum 21 days and it will end up being 6 weeks before the next addition. Been thinking on a small UV sterilizer if I go with the sump.

I'm not sure what to watch to see if the tank is stabilized. Water params are all good (I'll check ph night and morning as suggested). I have lots of pods and other things. No sponges or corals because I haven't added anything like that. The rest of the tank inhabitants are very active.

[NewSaltyReefer]

I second the low pH at night. For a while I only had two clownfish in my tank (very hardy), so I did not think I had a problem. Then i added a sand sifting star and it begain to deteriorate:( . The LFS told me it was beacuse of a pH problem, but all my test said pH was fine. Then I tested in the morning before the lights came on...7.4!!!! I was having almost a 1 pH difference between day and night!!

I added an airstone to try to lower my CO2 levels and have not had a pH problem since!

[eederise]

I had the same problem with the sand sifting star. I also have lost a firefish, a gramma, and two anemones; each surviving from 3-30 days. I will definately be checking my PH in the morning. Thanks for that info!

[daven]

After a bit of searching I found two skimmers for the biocube. One is a Tunze which you have to dremel a bit in the middle chamber and the other is from sapphire aquatics that is custom fit to the middle chamber.

Just ordered the Sapphire (cheaper too) and will start to remove the bio balls (slowly).

Going to have to wake the mother-in-law up early tomorrow to get the Ph reading on the way to work.

[fuzzyt]

Gotta give you some credit daven for hanging in there so long. Keep it up, you'll get there soon enough! :)

[daven]

It's my personality. I want to do this. I still want to and I'll figure it out (with help of course). Tearing it down and starting over wouldn't add to the experience base. Knowledge without experience isn't that useful.

And then there is the fact that I have a 180g, custom stand, custom sump (as soon as its finished) and all the paraphernalia sitting in my entry way waiting to go.

[daven]

Rats. Meaured Ph at 8.0 last night and 8.0 early this morning. However, I am going on the following path:

Found a skimmer made for the 29 biocube. Ordered it. Starting to remove my bio balls slowly. Will put the skimmer in. Until it is in I am putting in an air stone.

Once skimmer is in I will probably remove my Fluval pump/filter and convert that chamber to chaeto.

Of course, that will all take time so no new fish until then.

[eederise]

Bingo! 8.0 last night and below scale(lowest is 7.8) reading this morning! Guess I found the problem...