View Full Version : Need help with water flow and noise
belikethomas
11/04/2006, 02:51 AM
hey everyone
i have had 4 different tanks over the past 7 years and i just got this new corner tank with an overflow and sump. i cant for th life of me get my tank to run properly. the water flows into the overflow and down through a filter sock and then into my sump. the water ten pass through my skimmer and then gets pumped back into my tank. the problem is that when i adjust my ball valve on my return pump to pump more water flow into my tank, the overflow makes a toilet flushing noise and cant keep up with the pump. when i adjust my ball valve on the return pump to limit the water flow into my tank the toilet flush noise goes away, but there is not enough water flow going into my tank to properly circulate the water. does anyone have any suggestions. i love how this tank looks, but it is very frustrating to me that i cant get it to work properly. any suggestions?
thanks.
http://
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/136800CIMG4903.JPG
Keelay
11/04/2006, 04:25 AM
http://www.dursostandpipes.com/
http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/standpipe/standpipe-ken_stockman.htm
or
http://home.everestkc.net/jrobertson57268/HGB/
Are the most common solutions to this problem. Good Luck
uchiha
11/04/2006, 05:24 AM
definitely make a standpipe. the stockmans will take up less space than the dursos, but both will help with noise issues.
RandyStacyE
11/04/2006, 10:19 AM
I would definitely go with either the Durso or the Stockman myself. Sometimes a 'strait shot' down from the standpipe can make some noise all by itself so if you use a hose from your overflow it can help if you take it at an angle. It can allow the water to slide down the hose rather than water falling through the hose. If you use pipe, basically it's the same deal just not as simple.
It all depends on your flow rate too. If your flow rate is very high you could still get a flushing effect with the Stockman/Durso. That could be from a few reasons though. Just keep in mind that a 1" bulkhead will only take about 600 gph. If you are feeding near that 'max range' it can make the standpipe a little finicky. In that case a larger standpipe is likely necessary.
There are so many different modifications people use to help tune in the standpipe, but I just like to keep it simple by building it to the right size if not oversized. Some prefer to shove an airline down through the top of the Stockman/Durso to encourage a more reliable ‘siphon break’ to stop the flushing.
belikethomas
11/04/2006, 01:29 PM
thanks for the suggestions, i have a durso in the overflow now and it is making that flushing noise if the water flow is too high. i dont know whether to modify that or try one of the other options in the (stockman or hgb).
RandyStacyE
11/04/2006, 01:57 PM
First off, what is your approx flow rate?
What size is the standpipe and/or bulkhead?
If you are still geting this flushing action you will likely get a bunch of suggestion to modify the Durso, but likely its just 1 size too small.
If your flow rate is borderlining maximum for the size of the bulkhead, you could try adjusting the size of the air hole or using a small valve. I like the valve.
Reefbox
11/04/2006, 03:02 PM
What size pump or make/model?
How large is the drain to the sump?
It is almost sounding like your drain is too small for the pump.
belikethomas
11/05/2006, 12:28 AM
i have a mag 12 pump that is rated to do 1200 gph but the ball valve is cutting that back for now because of my drain issues. i would like to let it run at full flow rate, hopefully if i can figure out how to fix my drain problem so i can do that. as for my drain/bulkhead i am not sure how to correctly size it up but when i put a tape measure around it, it measures 5" radius. here is a pic of my overflow from the top, unfortunately it doesnt give much detail being that it is a corner tank and its hard to easily get to. any suggestions on what i should do from here.
thanks forthe replies thus far, i appreciate everyones input in trying to help me here.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/136800CIMG5077.JPG
Keelay
11/05/2006, 01:47 AM
I think Randy hit the nail on the head about the flow rate that a 1" drain is going to handle. The mag 1200 can well exceed this rating.
600GPH is the upper limit rate at which a 1" drain is estimated to handle normal drain flow. Normal drain flow is where you are sucking air in along with the water and gravity is the only force pulling(or pushing) the water down.
Can a 1" pipe handle more than 600GPH? YES! Under siphon it will significantly increase flow rate. At this point the inlet is completely enveloped. No air is being sucked in and gravity and the suction from the solid column of water below it pull the water into the inlet.
I presume what is occuring is you are pushing something like 900+ GPH after headloss using that pump. You're overrunning the drain. It's only taking 600 GPH. Because of this, the overflow water level rises until the inlet is completely enveloped and siphon forms. At this point the water flow rate in the standpipe increases to something like 1000+GPH (yes I'm making this up :)). This increases flow rate is sustained until the water level lowers to the same level as the durso inlet. This is the point where the siphon breaks. Many people associate sound of the siphon break with the sound of a toilet flushing. (the toilet uses a siphon too). When running the pump full out this flushing sound likely occurs on a regular interval. Something like every thirty seconds? I've seen the interval vary significantly too however.
Watch your overflow and let us know if this is what's going on. This is the expected operation of the durso. It is actually a very nice safety feature to have that your stand pipe is designed to kick it up a notch in terms of flow rate capacity when needed.
If it is, unfortunately Randy has it right. You will need a larger stand pipe if you are set on running your mag 12 full out. The only other option(s) are to get a smaller pump or slow down the mag.
belikethomas
11/05/2006, 03:53 AM
hey keelay,
thanks for your replies. you are right on, the water level in the overflow rises and lowers and the more flow i open up, the more frequently i hear the flushing noise. the only problem with cutting down the flow of the mag 12 is that i dont have much water circulation inside the tank and i get this layer of film on the top of my water in the tank because there is not enough flow to filter my water properly. would i be able to modify the durso, maybe cut more holes in the stand pipe to allow more water to flow down or maybe make the air hole in the top of the durso larger to help?? even when i cut back approx. 50 percent of the flow from the mag 12 i still encounter the flushing noise, its just not as frequent as when i allow more flow into my tank. i am a bit frustrated because i just bought this tank and i just want to get it running to its full potential before i start stocking it with livestock. thanks again
Keelay
11/05/2006, 04:15 AM
Odd about the layer of film. I would expect you would get decent surface skimming with even 300 GPH on that overflow.
Most people accomplish the flow requirements (10x-20x) with means other than the return pump. You might look into a stream pump. (this is the quickest solution) or maybe a closed loop. Here's melev's closed loop http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html
On other suggestion is I believe you have a two holes drilled in that tank right. One for overflow and the other for return. You could route your return behind the back and hand on back.
That would allow you to use the return bulkhead as another drain. Do a search for herbie's method on RC and you'll find a solution that might work for your drain requirements. Basically herbie's setup is to make one drain full to capacity and have a tiny bit go down the other. This makes for a quiet and high capacity drain system.
The return is likely 3/4" but it might still be done.
- Kyle
Norboo
11/05/2006, 07:27 AM
I had that problem during my test run. I had few problems that I am sorting out now.
As for the Durso, I am using 1 ¼” pipe that reduces to 1” drain pipe. My hole for the the bulkhead will not allow me to use any larger pipe. So…this is what I did for better drainage.
I took out all the treaded fittings and used slip fittings. (slip fitting has larger holes)
Also, use sch 20 pipe vs. 40 or 80.
Every fitting that meets the water flow direction, I filed/sanded the fitting and pipes down into a funnel.
Example:
water flow direction >>>>>>>>>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/Norboo/fittings_slip_x_slip_bushings.jpg
Reefbox
11/05/2006, 03:30 PM
I would make the air vent larger on the Durso and see what that does. I have an AquaSilencer running on my overflow box and it is handling an Eheim 1262 w/SCWD, which is around 800 gph. No noise or operating problems at all. It all drains through a 1" drain. Drains definetely need to vent. It looks as if the air vent on the AquaSilencer is larger than the one on the Durso.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i196/reefpets/silencer1.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i196/reefpets/boxmod.jpg
Keelay
11/05/2006, 06:56 PM
Also make sure you are using thin wall 1" PVC. Schedule 26 (not 40)
ppurcell
11/05/2006, 09:12 PM
as an addition to these excellent suggestions, you might add a muffler to the vent hose to further cut some of the noise. I you take a 3" length of 3/4" PVC with caps both ends and drill a hole in each cap just large enough for your 1/4" vent tubing to fit into it you can build a very effective muffler. I saw a recent post on these and use them on both my stockman aqua silencer and on the venturi input for my skimmer.
Keelay
11/06/2006, 12:26 AM
Like this one: http://randystacye.com/diy_venturi_silencer.htm
However, it won't help the noise from the siphon break, just if your hearing noise out of your standpipe air hole.
belikethomas
11/06/2006, 01:22 AM
sounds like i have a full day of troubleshooting ahead of me tomorrow. thanks you guys for helping out a newbie to reef central, hopefully i will have good news to report back in a couple of days.
192clark
11/06/2006, 09:58 AM
I saw on here where one guy used both holes in his overflow and then plumed the return back over the top instead of through overflow. The Durso/Stockman is still needed but you would have more than a 1 in drain.
RandyStacyE
11/06/2006, 11:35 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8487095#post8487095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Keelay
Like this one: http://randystacye.com/diy_venturi_silencer.htm
However, it won't help the noise from the siphon break, just if your hearing noise out of your standpipe air hole.
Have you seen the video on that page? It's a somewhat recent addition to the page. DIY Silencer Video (http://randystacye.com/images/diyventirisilencer/diyventurisilencervid.mpg)
192clark
11/06/2006, 05:21 PM
That is really interesting and simple. Thanks a lot. RandyStacyE
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.