Ultra high NO3 reading in 4+ y/o tank

[Maury]

Got a puzzler here. My 210 reef has been up and stable, and doing great for years. No new additions of any kind for the past two years, corals growing great (mainly sps, but some lps as shrooms as well).

I decided to test the Nitrate level last week (haven't done that in over a year, yes, shame on me, but the tank, for years has maintained a near 0 level). Well, when I tested it with an old Salifert kit (about two years old) it measured at 100! At first I thought I had to have a bad kit, or it was too old, so I ordered a new Salifert kit and the Lamotte one from Marine Depot.

Well, both kits showed dup today, I tested with both and the reading is accurate.

Here's where I'm puzzled. Why is everything in the tank doing great?! I have some fairly sensitive things in there (two large carpet anemones, a blue and a green, a large rose, an Imperator angel, three dwarf angels (flame, coral beauty and a bicolor)) as well as all the sps coral that should be able to tolerate Nitrate levels anywhere NEAR these.

So, has anyone ever heard of a tank that had its nitrate level slowly raised to where all the organisms are tolerant to it? I'd buy that with maybe a level of 10 or so, but 100?

I did lose one of my large sps colonies last month to RTN that came out of nowhere, but beginning to guess why now!

Another thing that's concerning me, is how fast to bring the level down. Already mixing up some water for a change, but worried that a large drop (say, doing a 60% water change) may shock the system.

I haven't been here in a while, and have read some on the tank problems down the road with DSBs, and my tank has been up about the amount of time some have had problems. however, it still looks and is growing great. ALL the other parameters are perfect:

pH 8.0
Am/nitrite 0/0
Phos and Silicates: 0
Mg 1350
Ca 450
Alk 3.5
temp 78-79 (controlled with chiller and aquacontroller 2)

Happy to answer any further questions, post pics and take any suggestions that may help me with this matter.

[stereomandan]

Do you have any algae problems right now?

If the growth in nitrates was very slow, as it could have been over the last year, then the tolerance will be MUCH higher for everything in the tank. they just adjusted to it. I'm surprised that algae isn't a problem though.

You do have a deep sand bed? Sounds like you do.

Maybe you had a snail die, or something else and it's just a quick spike right now? That's also a thought.

Dan

[McCrary]

Sometimes DSB's go bad and the bacteria dies. When this happens you lose the ability to convert Nitrate with the anerobic bacteria. Over time (say 4 years) the ability of the water to travel slowly through the sand bed is lost because small amounts of detris clog the water ways through the sand. The bacteria that feed off of the N03 die and you get high nitrates. I could be way off in my thinking, but this seems like a real possibility.

[Maury]

I have what you would call a pseudo-DSB. It varies in depth, but no more than 2-3 inches at the most. I also considered this as a factor.

And no, no algae problems at all, except for a few bubble algae here and there. LR is nice and clean, and the sand bed is just sand and rubble. No dinos, slime or algae anywhere.

I do have a small refugium in the sump with some algae in it as an export mechanism, but hardly anything that can make a difference in this big of a tank.

And I'm sure I've lost a snail here and there, but that would do this! :)

And no overfeeding either. Anyway, I'd expect to see a Phos spike is feeding were a major factor here as well.

[theatrus]

As stereomandan pointed out, you're probably not having issues as your corals have very very slowly acclimated to the new nitrate levels.

How is your SPS coloration?

[Maury]

SPS looks good. Going to try and shoot some pics right now to show you.

[melev]

I hate to suggest you change anything if your tank is doing fine. If you do a 50% water change, you'll drop the nitrate in half.

It would be nice if you could have your LFS test for nitrate as well. I'm sure you know what you are doing, but it is always nice to have someone else out there do a test for confirmation, even though you bought two more kits and checked yourself. It is easy to not follow directions to a T when you've done it many times before.

[Maury]

Used the same kits to test the tap water (almost zero) and the 32 gallon reservoir of RO/DI in the garage (zero), so I believe the kits.

But I know what you're getting at, about the tank being stable. Heck, the Rose spawned again for two nights in a row last week!

But, as I lost that one SPS last month, I fear that these animals can only acclimate so far. So corrective measures need to be instituted.

[melev]

I agree. This is similar to the straw that broke the camel's back. At some point, you'll hit that point and it won't be good. So do a 50% water change, then wait a week or two to do another one. Each 50% water change will drop Nitrate in half. You could bring it down gradually over time.

Another slow option is to drop in some algone pouches in the sump. It'll take about 6 weeks but you'll see the nitrate come down gradually. www.algone.com is their site, the only place I know of that you can buy it.

[Maury]

And, of course, doing this just corrects the nitrate, and doesn't fix the underlying problem of WHY the nitrates went off the chart.

Although, I'm sure it's a combination of DSB failure, and me not doing water changes!

[hatebreed]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8336597#post8336597 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Maury
And, of course, doing this just corrects the nitrate, and doesn't fix the underlying problem of WHY the nitrates went off the chart.

Although, I'm sure it's a combination of DSB failure, and me not doing water changes!

You said you hadn't tested the tank in a year, how long since you've done a water change?

[Maury]

About 6 months. And even then, didn't test Nitrates, just the Mg, Ca, Alk, phos and Silicates (pH, ORP, and temp on aquacontroller) salinity stable at around 1.026.

I know, poor husbandry, but the tank, for years before that, has gone longer between changes, and the LR/sandbed/fuge has always maintained a near undetectable NO3 level.

Having said that, I plan on improving my water changing habits. When the tank was establishing itself the first year, it was easy to see when something was off, due to an algae bloom, dinoflagellates appearing, etc.. However, it looks the same as it always has.

Here are the pics I just took of the tank. You can see the coloration of all the SPS, as well as the fish and carpet and rose anemones are good.

And don't fret over the burnt/dead SPS around the rose. It expands to 2 feet in diameter at times, and kills everything in that area. The SPS has grown around it.

http://webpages.charter.net/maury/Image050.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/maury/Image052.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/maury/Image053.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/maury/Image054.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/maury/Image055.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/maury/Image056.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/maury/Image057.jpg

[Criminal#58369]

Wow, im supprised that the tank is doing as well as i see in the pics.

[Maury]

As am I. Hence the total shock at seeing that the NO3 reading was correct.

[chin_lee]

do you use filter sock? if so, how often are they changed?

Otherwise, I would perform 25% water changes four weeks in a row and it should bring it down considerably. Without any other logical source of nitrate production, I suspect your dsb may be your culprit.

[melev]

I think that doing water changes will resolve the issue, which has simply built up over 6 to 12 months very gradually.

Livestock looks good to me. Improving your husbandry is a very good goal.

[Maury]

Nope, no filter sock, expect for when the Rose spawns, and then only through the night to clear the water.

I don't have anything running on the tank that would act as a nitrate factory, trapping detritus.

And I'm fully prepared to point the finger at myself here. Just don't see how corals and everything else can LIVE at this level of nitrates.

[nyvp]

I would do less than a 50 % to much change to quick. Do like 25% every week untill you get the tank where you want it.

[klasiksb]

Are you running a skimmer? You say your rose spawned, perhaps all the 'spawn' is not getting exported and it is fouling the tank? Just a thought.

Great tank BTW.

[Maury]

Yes, big skimmer, run by an ampmaster 3000. When the rose spawns, it takes a load of gunk out of the water.

And thank you, for the compliment and for trying to find another source of the problem than ME! ;)

[JoeESSA]

It'll be interesting to do a few water changes and then wait a month or so before the next change to find out if the nitrates climb back up, and if so, how fast. This may give you insight into the nitrate nature of the nitrate source...

I also assumed that my water changes were too small and I have had a gradual accumulation. My nitrates used to be at zero, but are now at 20ppm. I have a 140g and have been doing 10g changes per week, which should have been OK. By doing 10g changes every day for 10 days I got the nitrate down to 10ppm. At that point I dropped down to two 10g changes per week. I have been doing that for six weeks and my nitrates are back at 20ppm again. Everything in the tank is very healthy.

Melev, I notice that you are proposing Algone to remove nitrate. I tried this for two weeks and decided to stop since it didn't appear to have any effect. I didn't give it much time. Actually I live in the DFW area and the store where I bought it from said DFWMAS have only good things to say about Algone. This made me give it a go even though I was highly sceptical. Can you expand more on your experiences with Algone? This may give me reason to start it again and give it more time...Is it detrimental to macroalgae in any way?

[Maury]

And NYVP, I’m taking your advice. Doing about a 25-30% change tomorrow afternoon after the new saltwater has been circulated for 24+ hours, and then weekly keep doing the same change until it’s undetectable.

I’m interested to see what happens when it gets back to near zero. If I’ll have a coral growth spurt or something.

More than likely the whole thing will crash as it’s all ‘high-nitrate mutant coral’ now. ;)

Maybe I should start a side business selling ultra-tough frags for the new, impatient reefer? ;)

[melev]

I didn't see any problems using Algone in my system, other than an urchin chewing holes through the fabric. A local tank servicing guy told me how he puts them in all his service tanks, as they were heavy feeders. This improved water clarity and reduced nitrates to almost 0.

Each pillow treats 200g. It isn't quick, but it gets it done somehow. I've not had any adverse reactions in my system at all. Someone recently posted on our board about it working with or like carbohydrates. I don't know what that means, to be perfectly honest.

[Maury]

As an aside, I view Nitrate as just a measurable marker for what is building up in the tank. Sure, the Algone resin may be able to get the NO3 number down, but there are still many unmeasured compounds that need to be diluted out.

I know this goes against everything I've actually DONE over the past two years with my tank, but I'm gonna fix that now. ;)

[Gary Majchrzak]

Great looking aquarium! I'd be loath to mess with anything except lowering your 'trates. Small water changes (10%) should bring them down. Don't go crazy.

Why did you place a rock in front of the blue Haddoni?

[Maury]

Well, 'I' didn't place that rock there, the blue and green haddoni did when they started moving around a bit. I keep meaning to get it out, but every time I try, one of them has their foot attached to it. I'm not about to damage those guys.....despite the fact they've eaten two of my favorite fish in the past 2 years!

[JoeESSA]

I also prefer the idea of many smaller changes rather than a few larger changes. Requires more patience, but less of a shock to the system. Multiple 10% changes, say 5 in one month as apposed to one 50% change per month have much the same effect over time. After 2-3 months of smaller changes the nitrates should stabilise at a new value. The new steady state value will depend on the rate of nitrate production in your tank versus size of water change. But, your probably aware of that already...

[lllosingit]

First off you said you said your deep sand bed is 2-3" at best, Thats not enough depth to function as a DSB, What substrate size is it? Fine Medium coarse?
I suspect it come down to simple nitrate build up over time from lack of nutrient export, No water changes, DSB not deep enough to function and you also stated that your algae export is also small.
Everything I see points to lack of nutrient export, The good news it's something that can be fixed easily.
I would do no more than a 20% water change at a time so you don't shock the system.
I used a DSB in my last setup (120g)that was between 4" to 8" I liked the look others didn't. The only downside I found was the room it took in the main display. I also had a very large refuge (90g) in my basement that had a DSB, I was able to get away with less water changes but even though my nitrates were always 0 I still did small reguler water changes.
The tank I'm setting up now is a 70 gallon I won't use a DSB in it but I still plan on setting up a large refuge with a DSB and lots of surface area to grow macro algae.
Your tank looks great by the way!
I would be concerned about bringing down the nitrates as fast as possible but large water changes will change the over chemistry of the tank and may do more harm than good.

[Maury]

That's why I said it's a pseudo-DSB. I really don't like the look of the full DSB, and the LR and the parts of the DSB that were able to do the job had done great for 3 + years.

And with all the bad press the DSB has been getting, no way am I going to try to set one up now. I'll just keep that 2-3 inch layer of Oolitchic sand for show.

And did the change today (as well as cleaned out a gunked up skimmer) and the NO3 is down to a little under 50.

I'll keep you all posted on how things go.

Thanks again for the tips!

[atty]

by any chance could both the test kits be dead or used incorrectly. i know you said that you tested the tap water ect. but your tank is looking great and in great running order, just cant see how a tank with such a high level of nitrate can survive.

[Gary Majchrzak]

I can see how the more sensitive corals survived thus far but they might be on the verge of succumbing to poor water conditions. You mentioned one SPS colony crashed. It probably won't take much to lose more. Any additional stressors might send them down the drain. I'll bet that SPS growth has been sluggish or non-existent. (I'd be surprised if calcification was proceeding rapidly). I'd also bet that your many herbivorous fishes are doing a decent job at keeping up with (what would be otherwise apparent) rapid algae growth.
All said and done, you're aquarium is truly inspirational.
Some small water changes over the next month or two should make it even better- just avoid any large rapid changes in husbandry.

[Maury]

OK, I have done a total of three, 45-50 gallon water changes, and the NO3 level is down to about 10. Everything seems to be doing fine.

I plan on doing the same water change once a week for about a month and see how things go.

Also, I don't feel the skimmer I have has been doing the job it should. Very little skimmate is collected, and most of the sludge build up in the column and had to be cleaned out periodically. I feel this also has been contributing to things. I have ordered a new skimmer, and will get it going next week. This is what is replacing it:

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idProduct=PM1121

However, I may have to dial back the Ampmaster 3000 that is currently driving my skimmer, as it may be a wee bit overpowered for this one.

[melev]

Yeah, the skimmer calls for a Mag 18, which is 1800gph. Seems like your Ampmaster 3000 may be good for double duty, since you are paying for the power it needs to keep it running no matter how much you dial it back. Maybe you can divert some water to some other items, like phosban reactors, etc.

I recommend cleaning out the cup and riser tube daily to get the most out of your skimmer. The sludge definitely slows production.

[JoeESSA]

Melev. Restarted the Algone treatment on my tank about 10 days ago. Will report my findings in a few weeks...

[melev]

It is a slow system. It could take 6 to 8 weeks to make an impression, honestly. It does work, ime. Let me know how it works for you.

And btw, if you have an urchin in the same area as the algone pouches, it will chew the pillows and release the contents. FYI. ;)

[nyvp]

glad it clearing up.