Upgrading auto topoff scheme....need advice

[mrkrispy]

The specialized tubing for my lab peristaltic pump is getting very hard to find. I have a 20L sps tank so I topoff using kalk water.
My current scheme is this:

1) Peristaltic pump pulls kalk water up to tank, drips slowly during the night time. The pump is on a timer and turns on about 6 times a night.
2) Kalk water is in a 5 gallon bucket. About every 10 days I need to replace the empty bucket with a fresh bucket of water-kalk-vinegar.
3) I have to constantly monitor the water level to make sure the topoff scheme keeps up (or doesn't add too much). This is because I need to run a fan occasionally (which is on a dual temp controller). I am tired of having to do this.


Is there a better, easier setup? I am consider the Tunze Osmololator, JBJ ATO, a kalk stirrer, etc... Since I have a small tank I can't have it dripping kalk water 24/7.

PLease help me out! THanks

[NewSchool04]

I have a Nautilus II, works great, tubing lasts for three years and you can have it on all day and night or put it on a timer.

www.innovativeaquatics.com

[manderx]

you can add a float switch/relay to it easily for < 20 bucks.

what kind of tubing are you using that you have to replace often and can't find anymore? usplastic.com has every size of every kind. use one with a really small ID so it drips slow.

[crumbletop]

Pardon the question, but is your pH high and that is why you use "kalk-vinegar"? Why not just topoff with plain RO/DI and occasionally add calcium chloride? Wouldn't that be easier?

Regarding ATO, I use an osmolator. Very nice system.

Jack

[NewSchool04]

Kalk helps keep your Alk up while maintaining a constant pH.

[crumbletop]

Yeah, I had just not heard of kalk-vinegar before. It seems like the vinegar would neutralize the hydroxide ions and wouldn't really help keep the pH up like plain old kalk-water would. Something about some aquariums not having enough CO2 in the system, though. I'm trying to read up on it. Never an end of new things to learn :)

Jack

[mrkrispy]

Wow, a lot of replies already.

- I have a high calcium demand in my tank. I was having to add calcium and baking soda several times a week, in addition to doing my normal water changes. I switched to kalk but the pH was a factor, and the calcium and alk. still dropped a bit. Once I switched to adding some vinegar it has been perfect. No pH problems, and the levels stay good. I drip only at night.

- the peristaltic pump is from a lab and uses proprietary tubing sets. I haven't figured out a way to rig up regular ones. It is a Pharmacia I believe. The line tubing is really small, something like 3mm ID. The roller tubing is 1/8th I think, which I can find, but the connectors and everything are weird. The pump has a flow control, so it works well.

- I didn't want to mess with a regular float switch...although a dual setup may be okay. Single setups are too sketchy in a small tank with a lot of current.

[naka]

How about invest in Litermeter 3? That way you can have it on a timer to pump from your kalk water only at night. I got the setup idea from jdieck.

I got my LM3 to pump from RO/DI storage tank to kalk stirer, but only at night when my ph drops. I've calculated the evaporation rate to liters, since LM3 only calculates in liters.

Let's say your tank evaporates 2 gal/day. That = 7.56 liters, so you multiply that time 2 since you're only running the LM3 for 12 hrs. You set the LM3 to 15.137 and set the timer reverse light period.

There you have it.

James

[Wryknow]

The Tunze osmolator is perfect for a system of your size. The only issue is that they tell you not to put the pump into a Klak resevoir because the kalk will shorten the life of the pump. Tunze sells a small kalk dispenser though that may work for an application of your size (it only holds about 3 tsp of kalk in the dispenser.) The controler is very reliable and does an excellent job of maintaining a constant water level. This is particularly critical in a 20L tank as I'm sure you are well aware.

[reverendmaynard]

naka - That doesn't address the fact that evap happens at varying rates. That's the whole point of the thread, if I'm not mistaken.

mrkrispy - You could combine your existing setup with a float switch controlled ATO that just adds RO/DI. Obviously, you'd have to limit your kalk dosing to the absolute minimum amount that you evap, or it will still over-add, but it would solve your problem with not adding enough on days of greater evap.

Peristaltic pumps are available several places online for less than $100. reefdosingpumps.com, innovativeaquatics.com, ebay. They also carry the tubing sets and float switches, timer controls, etc.

I take it you don't have a sump?

[mrkrispy]

Thanks again for the replies.

Maynard sums it up, I don't want to deal with fluctuating levels, so I disregarded the Litremeter. I don't have a sump either, so that makes it a little more difficult.

I am a bit confused though, does the Tunze osmolater actually come with a pump? If so, for the price it isn't really too bad considering I have to replace my peristaltic pump and would have to buy a decent float switch setup.

[Pyrrhus]

I use a JBJ ATO with an Aqualifter pump, the pump never runs for more than 5-10 seconds and keeps the tank topped up perfectly, there is a backup float and a pump time out feature built into the unit. The Aqualifter is a vacuum pump that uses standard 3/16" tubing and moves 3.5 gph.

[mrkrispy]

the aqualifter pump and the Tunze water pump both go in the resevoirs correct? Since I am pumping kalk water I assume that wouldn't be a good idea, so I probably need to stick with a peristaltic pump. Plus if decide to move to a kalk stirrer I would have a pump set.

Darn I can't figure out what is the best setup!

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7782395#post7782395 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mrkrispy
Thanks again for the replies.

Maynard sums it up, I don't want to deal with fluctuating levels, so I disregarded the Litremeter. I don't have a sump either, so that makes it a little more difficult.

I am a bit confused though, does the Tunze osmolater actually come with a pump? If so, for the price it isn't really too bad considering I have to replace my peristaltic pump and would have to buy a decent float switch setup.

actually without a sump a litermeter would work best, otherwise you would have a float switch in your display.

I recently got a litermeter for my 180, and it's awesome; evaporation doesnt' vary that much, at least day to day. I am sure once summer is over i will have to turn it down, but it is really easy to do, two buttons to press. I evaporate about 3 gallons a day, so even if it changes by 5%, that is less than a liter difference, not enought to worry about overflowing in a few days. Our reefs should be checked on frequently anyway, so noting any level changes and adjusting accordingly is no real chore, takes maybe 30 seconds. I also like that i can adjust down to 5 ml

Since the litermeter divides the dose into 192 equal portions throughout the day, there is no risk of kalk shock. I had a float switch, it stuck on, luckily i found it before it overflowed. I will no longer use a float switch.

and yes, the tunze comes with a small dc powered pump, which you will have to wire yourself, just bare ends.

[mrkrispy]

I don't mind a float switch in the display, much better than adjusting my liter miter frequently (and the price of the liter meter!). My evaporation can fluctuate wildly at certain times of the year, so I need to go to some sort of auto top off.

The tunze osmolaters require a seperate unit to plug a third party pump in to, that kind of stinks. $60 for an outlet isn't nice!.

I am thinking JBJ auto top off with a new peristaltic pump is best. I don't want to use the Tunze since the pump needs to sit in the water resevoir, which in my case is kalk.

[twon8]

i haven't adjusted mine yet, been three weeks.

i have used an aqualifter for the top off, it works with kalk, cheap too. you will have to run vinegar through it once a month or so. the rate will slow, that's the sign to clean

[Wryknow]

The Tunze osmolator comes with its own pump, and very good one at that. Just put the pump in a 5 gallon bucket under the tank (or somewhere pretty close to it) and put the sensor in the tank. When the sensor detects a low water level it will pump the water up the tank. If you add on the kalk dispenser, the dispenser actually goes in the bucket with the pump and the fresh water. The pump pushes fresh water into the dispenser and kalk-satuarated water into the tank. Very slick, but not cheap.

[manderx]

The tunze osmolaters require a seperate unit to plug a third party pump in to, that kind of stinks. $60 for an outlet isn't nice!.
i have several friends who have hooked DC peristaltics up directly to the wires coming off the osmolator. or if you have an AC peristaltic, no reason you couldn't wire it to an $8 relay from radio shack. i recently did the relay thing for an AC masterflex to calibrate and deliever metered doses off my litermeter's controller. relays are *easy*, nothing to it.

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7803741#post7803741 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Wryknow
The Tunze osmolator comes with its own pump, and very good one at that. Just put the pump in a 5 gallon bucket under the tank (or somewhere pretty close to it) and put the sensor in the tank. When the sensor detects a low water level it will pump the water up the tank. If you add on the kalk dispenser, the dispenser actually goes in the bucket with the pump and the fresh water. The pump pushes fresh water into the dispenser and kalk-satuarated water into the tank. Very slick, but not cheap.

I just built a DIY kalk reactor that I hooked in line with my osmolator. So far it is working great. The problem for mrkrispy, though, would be how to do vinegar-kalk-water in a reactor. It seems to me the vinegar would wash out, so I'm not sure his setup could benefit from straight kalk additions...

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/303/303448/folders/247534/1954272DSCN2551.jpg



Jack

[mrkrispy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7803790#post7803790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by manderx
i have several friends who have hooked DC peristaltics up directly to the wires coming off the osmolator. or if you have an AC peristaltic, no reason you couldn't wire it to an $8 relay from radio shack. i recently did the relay thing for an AC masterflex to calibrate and deliever metered doses off my litermeter's controller. relays are *easy*, nothing to it.


hmmm now that is an idea. I haven't wired relays before maybe I will try that.

[mrkrispy]

that is a cool kalk reactor, I think I saw it in another thread.
You are right though, with the vinegar I can really run a kalk reactor/stirrer, I forgot.

I need to upgrade my tank and work a sump in this time lol

[mrkrispy]

I looked in to the calcium dispenser and it only holds 4 tsp (not Tablespoon) so I would have to add it too frequently to be worth the money. I am trying to decide between the JBJ Auto Top Off, the Tunze, and the Oceanus stuff. I can't seem to figure out how a JBJ and Oceanus would be better than the other.

[geckofrog]

I just ordered the Tunze osmolator, I'll post pictures when I get it and my final opinion.

Tunze quality and efficiency is really hard to beat. (the Tunze's turbelle power heads are my fav!) Of course you'll pay for it though.

[Wryknow]

If I needed to add vinegar to increase the Kalk levels then I would just add the vinegar directly into my fresh water resevoir at whatever concentration that I needed. The vinegar will increase the saturation point in the Kalk reacor or dispenser.

I too decided against using the Tunze dispenser because of the small Kalk capacity. I am currently using the PM 620 kalk reactor in combo with the osmolator and am very satisfied with it. The PM unit holds 8 oz of Kalk easily!

[mrkrispy]

The osmolator pump puts out enough pressure to push water thru your kalk reactor?

[manderx]

would be how to do vinegar-kalk-water in a reactor.
this is actually the exact reason i added the relay to my masterflex. my topoff is based on a small ~2g reservoir that fills once a day via float valve/solenoid-timer. i have the masterflex dosing vinegar to my reservoir, so it adds 50ml a day controlled by a litermeter. there is a little play in the concentration of vinegar since it adds a few drops at a time every 10 minutes while the water level in the reservoir fluctuates throughout the day, but it evens out and hits equalibrium. actually i can use this to my advantage, i can time when the reservoir fills so that i can deliberately dose more/less vinegar at certain times of the day. i think i've read that it's better to add it (vinegar/vodka/sugar) during the day. i also thought about using a tee/check valves on the kalk stirrer inlet so i could push vinegar directly into the stirrer body and skip the reservoir, but i'm lazy.


I looked in to the calcium dispenser and it only holds 4 tsp (not Tablespoon) so I would have to add it too frequently to be worth the money
i never understood why they recommend to put so little in at a time. i've made several kalk chambers similar to the tunze for people in my local club, except that i make mine out of acrylic sheet so it's a square tube with a 60 degreee tapered bottom. they work just fine filled up with several cups of kalk. they just need to be filled ~once a month, and shaken slightly once a week or so. not to mix the kalk, but to collapse channels that form in the pile of kalk powder at the bottom of the chamber. i'm using a deltec kalk stirrer and geo calcium reactor, but the people using just my kalk chambers have way better sps growth and coralline, so i'm thinking of making one for myself.

[mrkrispy]

well I have a 20gallon SPS tank with a clam, and I use about 4 TABLEspoons of kalk in 4 gallons of water with 160 ml of vinegar...and go thru it every 10 days. It took a few months to figure out the quantity to keep the calcium levels elevated.

[crumbletop]

The osmolator pump puts out enough pressure to push water thru your kalk reactor?

You betcha. I think the pump has a max head of 12'. I use it as the sole source of stirring things up in my DIY above.

Jack

[Wryknow]

Yes. Even with a check valve in place to prevent back-siphoning there's plenty of pump pressure to pump the water to the top of the tank (about 5' above the resevoir level.)

[mrkrispy]

the JBJ ATO (auto top off) doesn't seem to have snail guards so that is definitely out! The oceanus float switches are pretty bulky too, so I think I will go with the Tunze.

[mrkrispy]

I got a Tunze Osmolater and I really like it. The sensor holders are really irritating since they are not made for US-style aquariums. Someone needs to start selling some acylic thingies for them.

I am going to experiment with kalk-vinegar and the Tunze pump, using something to hold the pump off the bottom of the bucket. I am hoping the vinegar will keep more kalk in solution so as not to damage the pump so fast...

I need to get a mini ball valve too, the thing pumps too much water at once if I am going to be using kalk.

[crumbletop]

You can govern how much it pumps at once by the volume needed to restore the proper level in your return chamber. If your return chamber is large, then a small drop in level = a larger volume of water that needs to be replaced. A ball valve will not help this. My return section is somewhat small (maybe 12" by 6") and my osmolator probably pushes about 3-4 oz at a time when it fires.

[mrkrispy]

I don't have a sump so that won't help. It isn't the volume, it is the amount added too quickly may impact the pH. I would rather it take several 10-minute attempts than one huge blast of kalk water.

It will take a lot of pH,calc,alk monitoring for a week or two to see how it goes.

[crumbletop]

I forgot this was to dump into your display. I see your problem. I don't know what to recommend. Dialing back the volume by making the pump strain for 10 minutes will likely cause premature pump failure. Hmmm. That is a toughy...

[CapnKick]

Build a sump! It's the best thing I did for my 20 gallon, although a bit of overkill. A 10 gallon sump added about 5 gallons of volume (an increase of 25%!), and I let the kalk dose directly into the sump. There were no noticable changes in pH because the float switch would come on ~15x/day, dosing small amounts each time. The JBJ worked fine, in fact I still use it in the sump of my 120. However, I like the Oceanus design more and will probably switch to that in the future.

[jimsta]

what about autotopoff.com?

Just throwing this out there. they look like they have redesigned there setups, dont know if thats good or bad, but my older version works FLAWLESSLY.