DIY - Skimmer

[Boostable]

After finishing up my sump I have decided I want to build a new PS to handle the load and I need some advice.

I have read all over the net that taller is better as it gives more time for the particles to adhere to the bubble, which makes sense. However I want to keep the unit underneath in my stand so a 4' skimmer just isn't going to cut it.

So heres my plan..

I can get a maximum height of approx 28" with cup.

So my plan is to build two or three 4" skimmers in series. Would work something like this..

Pump --->In SK1 Out--->In SK2--->Out ---> return to sump..

I plan to use a counter-current for SK1 and a co-current for SK2, etc. "counter-current for SK3 if I do one"

Each would be approx 28" tall and will have a common collection area and single waste line.

I have also decided to go with the air stone setup to give me better control over the bubble density.

I will try and do a drawing later to give a better idea, but what do you think of the concept?

Thanks for any feedback..

Jack

[loosbrew]

you can almost do a venturi with a needle wheel on the first then use the wooden airstones on the second and/or third. not sure how this would all work though, but im rather interesting in finding out.

good luck.

lue.

[cschweitzer]

I would love to see some type of initial diagram. Sounds like a good idea, but would you aerate before going into the first and again after? Would enough skimmate be produced once the largest particulates are removed from the first? Would you have a second pump or just be using the one? What do you think of a fold-over chamber that goes up, back down, and the reaerated a second time before going to the one chamber?

My understanding of the system is a little vague without a diagram, but it sounds like a really fun project...Tell me when you plan to start. I have a few ideas I would love to toy around with.

Craig

[Boostable]

Craig,

I will try and work up a diagram real quick.

I would aerate each skimmer seperately. They could all use the same pump, but would be controlled individually.

I think one pump would be just fine as I would not be required to move massive amounts of water to create the bubble like in a venturi setup. I nice steady flow through all would be best.

Not sure on the fold over chamber. I assume you mean like a baffle type system? Would be kinda cool if that could be worked out somehow, but the skimmate would pool at the top of the first baffle I think.

Jack

[Boostable]

Ok.. here are a couple of QUICK drawings of what I had in mind. Now these are in NO WAY a representation of functionality, just for discussion pursposes only.


This is a dual skimmer setup "side view"


http://www.wilburnfamily.us/albums/album27/Simmers_Dual.jpg


This is what I had in mind if I did a triple. It would function basicly the same as above, except the flow direction would be different and would be arranged in a triangle pattern.

This is the top view of a triple setup..

http://www.wilburnfamily.us/albums/album27/Simmers_Triple.jpg

Let me know what you think.

Jack

[syndrome]

It is more effecient to have 2 side by side skimmers then to have them all tied into each other.

[Boostable]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7110052#post7110052 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by syndrome
It is more effecient to have 2 side by side skimmers then to have them all tied into each other.

Please explain.

[syndrome]

The water entering the first skimmer will be cleaned leaving less amounts of waste to be skimmed by the second skimmer. Once it gets to the third skimmer It will be just skimming clean water. But if you have two skimmers not connected skimming up independent of each other they will be able to get more junk out. By the way anything you make im sure is going to be sick.

[cschweitzer]

It would help with aeration, but I think syn has a point. But at the same time, skimmers with a recirculating pump sometimes seem to work best.

For what I was talking about, yes, something like a baffle system, but closed. Here is a really shotty picture of what I was imagining.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j234/crschweitzer/1553cb85.jpg

[cschweitzer]

If it could be worked to a smaller footprint, theis would create 5 times the length of a single tube contact time. Maybe slants for the folded sides to create a nice flow through. Maybe also some aerateion or mixer pump toget the bubbles stirred up right before the two pumps mix and go through the last chamber. Obvious modifications will need to be made to correct some foreseeable issues, but overall, a decent representation of what I was thinking. The overflow chambers would act as a bubble trap of sorts andcould go on front instead of in between the last two chamers. Could also do a single sided, one pump, model. What do you think?

[Boostable]

I like the idea, but where did you have in mind for the injection? Would have to be just before the riser tube to prevent a bubble flat line if you will.

Now one way may be just have an airline that runs the length of the side tube and releases bubbles along the way... hummmm

has some potential for sure...

JW

[cschweitzer]

You could always either do dual venturi style injection or get some sedra 9000's like the ASM G5 had where the air is pulled into the pumps (or both of the above) and have some type of final mixer(don't have it all planned yet) as they enter the final chamber and mix together

[jy544]

I would use the sedra's or another needle wheel pump.

[spazz]

i feel you would be way better off building 1 super fat skimmer and have it shorter than to build 3 smaller skimmers. do a search on bubble king skimmers and then you can see a short fat skimmer that works very well. i have built short fat skimmers that work well and tall skimmers that work well. you will loose some performance for the shorter design but that can be compinsated for by making it fatter and having more pumps to produce air bubbles with.
how big will this system be in total gallons? there is where you need to start first. then figure out what pumps you are going to use on it. then build the body to fit those pumps and that system.

[Boostable]

The main tank is 220 and the sum/fug holds approx 60G, so we are talking about 280 total.

So maybe like an 8" diameter? or you talking even bigger?

I was going to use the air stone setup to have more control on the bubbles. What are your thoughts on that?

Thanks,

Jack

[cschweitzer]

They're great until they stop working. You need to change the stone all the time to keep maximum efficieny. Air inline to the pump or venturi are the best styles I've seen so far. Well, actually spray injection, but that may not be the easiest to implement. Maybe a combo of air ingection into the pump and venturi would be possible to create. I would stay away from airstone driven.

[spazz]

for best overall performance i would go with a recirculating needle wheel skimmer. the prior post has it correct but didnt elaborate enough on it. if you use an air stone skimmer they would work. but to keep your performance at the maximum you need to replace the stones every 3-4 weeks. other wise the stones wont put out as much and the perfformacne will decrease in the skimmer. the needle wheel skimmer are designed to produce the maximum amount of fine bubbles with out having to do the maintaince to the skimmer all the time. if you built an aristone skimmer you would be ordering stones all the time. then after a while you would try and get more time out of each set of stones. there by decreasing the performance of the skimmer. and everytime you shut down the skimmer and replace the stones the skimmer will need to get a new head of foam made and that takes time. the entire time the head is lost your skimer is not cleaning the water inthe tank. so for those reasons i recomend the needle wheel skimmers. yous there more expesive to build buit in the end you will have alot better tank. you will only need ot clean the collectoin cup once a week. or at least clean the collection container if you put a drain on the cup. its alot easer to get the needle wheels to stay in tune for long piroids of time with out touching them. and if there built right they will over skimm the tank and keep it looking great for years with little maintaince to the skimmer. the only time a skimmer should be off line is to clean the pumps and body once every 6 months. and i dont recomend cleaningthem very well either. if you completly steralize the inside of the skimer you will end up having to break the skimmer back in once its back on line.

[Boostable]

Great points guys... I really appreciate the feedback. I will give some thought to all the suggestions and come up with a solid plan to get it built.. Will keep you posted..

BTW.. what the concensus on the diameter? 8" or more?

Thanks,

Jack

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7119567#post7119567 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boostable
Great points guys... I really appreciate the feedback. I will give some thought to all the suggestions and come up with a solid plan to get it built.. Will keep you posted..

BTW.. what the concensus on the diameter? 8" or more?

Thanks,

Jack

i run an 8" skimmer on my 120 so take that for what its worth. i have a 300g system in the works an i plan to build a 12" skimmer for that tank. the bigger the diameter the longer the dwell time the water will have in the main chamber and the cleaner the tank will stay. i feel most skimmers are overrated for the bioloads we demand them to keep clean. if you were to go by the skimmers rating you couldnt have as many fish in the tank. and i think we all end up at the LFS checking out the stock in there tanks and dont even think will this one more fish make that big of a differenc on the skimmers ability to keep my tank clean. that one fish can mean the difference between a clean tank and a hair alage ridden tank with half dead live stock. your skimmer is one of the most improtant pieces of equiptment you will ever buy. also a skimmer that is not rated for that size bio load and size of your system is just as bad as no skimmer at all. your corals and fish can live with less light and less flow but not with dirty water. never skimp on the skimmer. stick as much quality and quanity into the reasearch to build the best skimmer you can. trust me i know. the only good piece of equiptment on my last tank was the new skimmer i built for it. everything else on the tank was pure crap. if you do a search on my diy deltec you will see the skimmer i built for my 180g tank. that skimmer would be too small for your system. so you can get an idea of what size skimmer you will need.

[Boostable]

Thanks for all the info spazz, both here and in PM. It has been a great help.

I did some checking on pricing for the 12" pipe and MAN is that stuff expensive or what.... whew!!!! I can however get 6" locally pretty resonable.... Sooooo I had another idea that I want to some opinions on..

Bassiclly what I was considering was taking a 6" pipe and cutting it in half and putting in 4" panels inbetween the half pipes to make a 10" x 6" oval skimmer.

Feed it with the overflow and have two NW recirculating pumps at both ends. Dual risers and a big collection cup.. What do you think?

JW

[spazz]

i hate to say it but you would be better off using 12" pvc instead of that design. the tube needs to be round or the skimmer will loose its effecienty. thats why all good factory skimmers are
made with round tube.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7126808#post7126808 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boostable
Thanks for all the info spazz, both here and in PM. It has been a great help.

I did some checking on pricing for the 12" pipe and MAN is that stuff expensive or what.... whew!!!! I can however get 6" locally pretty resonable.... Sooooo I had another idea that I want to some opinions on..

Bassiclly what I was considering was taking a 6" pipe and cutting it in half and putting in 4" panels inbetween the half pipes to make a 10" x 6" oval skimmer.

Feed it with the overflow and have two NW recirculating pumps at both ends. Dual risers and a big collection cup.. What do you think?

JW

[Boostable]

I new you where going to tell me that.. hey it doesn't hurt to ask right?

I have one other hang up and that is the space. I don't think I have the space for a 12" :( under my tank.

About all I have in the sump is 13 x 11 with a little off to the side. Even less outside the sump. :(

[spazz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7127262#post7127262 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boostable
I new you where going to tell me that.. hey it doesn't hurt to ask right?

I have one other hang up and that is the space. I don't think I have the space for a 12" :( under my tank.

About all I have in the sump is 13 x 11 with a little off to the side. Even less outside the sump. :(

well take this for what its worth. but if that was my tank i would get rid of other equiptment like refugiums or reactors to make space for my sikmmer. when i set up my 120 the first piece of equiptment that was plumed in was the skimmer then the sump and then the ca reactor. after that its a toss up as to the other equiptment that i added in there. the skimmer is the most improtant piece of equiptment on any salt water tank over 55g. the entire tank depends on that one piece of equiptment. you can get away with less lighting, less flow, but not less skimming. the sump on my 120 was designed so i could have a bigger skimmer on the system. i have no fuge and wouldnt ever have one. unless you have 4 times as big of a fuge as your system it dont do enough good. i think you understand my thoughts and ideas on this subject. i learned the hard way. no i try to help other people with this so they dont suffer for 3 years with the same problems i had. i spent thousands of dollars on equiptment trying to get my tank to look nice. in the end the skimmer was the problem. that was the last thing i fixed before i tore it down.now its the very first thing i concentrate on when setting up a new tank.
this summer i will be starting my new 300g tank. when you see pics of it you will see the skimmer uder the stand first. then the rest of the suport equiptment will be added in after that. this includes the sump.

hope this helps you and in the end im sure you will have a very nice system. you are researching this alot and that will end up helping you decide on the proper size skimmer in the end.

good luck! spazz

[Boostable]

spazz... All good advice, I will take it under strong consideratoin.

Thanks,

JW

[MORAY]

OMG Jack, I can't believe we have another member who's initials are JW! It must be the mark of genus! I think Spazz is right with the recirculating and if you want to see the one I built just let me know. I did a 9" with 2 pumps and I might make some more to see how much better I can get it. Honestly, I learned quite a bit from reading some of Spazz's threads in the DIY forum.

[Boostable]

JW

I feel like im writing to myself... LOL

I would love to check out your skimmer. Got any pics online? or any you can send me?

Thanks,

JW

[MORAY]

I posted some on o-r-c-a.com http://www.o-r-c-a.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=31

I've changed some things around since this picm but it gives you the basic idea. Here's a pic of the base
http://tankraisedcorals.com/skimmer.jpg

[MORAY]

Jack, search the DIY forum for Spazz post on diy deltec. It's pretty cool and there are some other really good threads on skimmers there too.

[Boostable]

Yep been readding the deltec skimmer thread quite a bit.

What are the overall deminsions of your skimmer including the pumps? Trying to get an idea of what kinda space I will need with the pumps on mine.

Thanks,

JW

[MORAY]

Well, I wasn't trying to make mine compact because I have a really big sump right now. Mine needs about 24" x 20", but there are things that can be rearranged to make it more compact. Mainly the way I mounted my pumps is the biggest area for improvement on size. The great thing about building your own is you can work around the limitations you face. Check out the Euroreef site to get an idea what they are doing as well as the other DIY threads. There are a bunch of DIY threads with good info but it's very time consuming. I do have some other ideas I'm going to play with over time to see if I can make it better. Like anything there's always after thoughts.

One thing I'll tell you upfront is this will take quite a bit more time than your sump project. But, if you enjoy it then it doesn't doesn't matter.

[cschweitzer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7127015#post7127015 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz
i hate to say it but you would be better off using 12" pvc instead of that design. the tube needs to be round or the skimmer will loose its effecienty. thats why all good factory skimmers are
made with round tube.

My remora pro is boxed and it's efficieny is better than all of the other ones I have, all the others being rounded. Maybe internally it is rounded, but when I think about the design, I don't think it is. I'll check when I get home.