Who came up with the definition of PICO reef?

[robmacy]

Who first said that a PICO reef was defined as a "marine aquarium taht is 2.5g or less"

Why not 3g or 5g?

Heck, a 20,000g could be considered a "pico" if you compare to the total of all ocean that covers the earth.

[Daemonfly]

It's not a set rule. It's generally around 3g or less = pico, just like it's generally around 29-30g or less for a nano.

And, they're not nano or pico oceans, they're nano tanks, the description is applied to the size of the tanks vs the commonly accepted normal sizes, nothing to do with the ocean. The nano & pico reef community came up with the size refferences.


Btw, arguing semantics on the internet is pointless.

[surfnvb7]

Btw, arguing semantics on the internet is pointless

EXACTLY!! i've even heard some Ausie guy say his 75g was a nano for example.

besides, nano means 10^-9 power, and pico means 10^-12 power. tell me how this relates to the size of a tank in gallons?? besides the difference b/w a pico and a nano is the difference in the power of 3.

several years ago, the term nano tank was a trade marked by, none other than the NanoCube. So in all reality, NanoCube is a business term, and has nothing to do with the size of a nano tank. b/c, as you've seen, Nanocubes were originally in 12g....and that was considered a nano, now there are 24g.........and who is to say they wont come out with a 30g, 48g or more? so where does the term nano tank stop? (most due to people following a business name such as NanoCube)

generally, my interpretation of a nano, is something that is not running on heavy equipment (skimmers for instance), and dedicated to natural filtration. The ultimate true nano I think is something you can actually pick up, if you are strong enough.

pico reef, is something you can pick up with no problem at all, almost in a single hand, depending on your weakly status from sitting in front of the computer too long with no exercise :lol:

you will get an endless arguement from this, until the mods post on the nano forum (for tanks under X# of gallons), just like in the large tanks forums where it states for tanks 180g (i think) and above.

[Kogo]

so if i work out hard enough .... i can have a 55g nano?

seriously though, i like surf's logic.
nano = simple and small.
pico = simpler and smaller

[brandon429]

Normally I wouldn't chime in on something that will make me look like I'm lying, but I try not to do these things in public if at all possible unless I am confident of the matter. I thought this question was cool because it made me think of the first time I heard the reference "pico"

In my opinion one of the key factors in tracing down this miniature oral lineage is determining where/when the trend started and who would have been speaking about it in a descriptive manner. It is my solemn answer that the first time I heard this descriptor was from a poster named Liquid on reefs dot org. Until better proof is given, I say he coined it first. No one was working with sub-gallon systems in 2001-2002, I mean no one. even 2.5's were the cutting edge practiced by about 5 collective people surfing the web and reefing at the same time... I'm sure there will be a wealth of information about old 2.5's nowadays that were alive and well back then supposedly but I can personally guarantee you no one posted about it or wrote about it on the internet, no pictures, the pros never heard of it being done and were mostly skeptical, I know because I spent hundreds of hours looking back then for sub-gallon information. There was none at all, non-existant. You will not find literature on it anywhere on the net about supposed old picos that have the date stamps to prove it, unless you go shopping around on the usual and current web sites for something called the reefbowl :cool:
That was a rotten and shameless plug of the reefbowl if I ever saw one, but I'm laying groundwork to answer the question posed in this thread, without proof all else is heresay so this is my best shot.
You might, however, hear about some "I know someone who did it" -type references but there are no pics of these systems in circulation on the web, which is where I'd put them if I wanted the notariety ;)


You won't find an older up-to-date corals pico reef than that one, I assure you. Aside from bowls of algae, one anemone and frequent seawater changes featured in those super-old nanos of the 40's in that Coral Mag edition, which were still quite cool I assure you, I know of not one single stony-focused reef of that size until long about 2001. Start looking, you'll see.

I suspect there would be lab work somewhere, somehow on the matter, especially for transport and containment systems as specimens are transferred between site and lab, but for the most part the question was "why do it, they are so unstable" and any early picos were not designed to be a focal point in someone's living room. The answer to that question evolves everyday as companies create nano and pico-sized tools to meet the market demand for affordable and cutting-edge marine tanks.

On this site, the only people I can mention that may be able to corroborate or deny my story are Agu, Lunchbucket and maybe EdKruzel if I'm not mistaken. I remember knowing rscheng long about 03 and there still weren't more than a handfull by then. That was quite some time ago, the good old days if you will. They were part of some of my early talks with Eric B and other nano reefers on the web when picos weren't so popular.

here's a sick pic: carrying a completely filled reef in the car as I'm waiting at a stoplight watching xenia pulse in the sun. it was going on display at a science center

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/files/carreef_109.jpg

[Carl_in_Florida]

There is a reference to a "pico" tank in this thread
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26285
around mid 2001.
the tank was 3/4 gallon.

Carl

[robmacy]

brandon429 - need to find a way to mount that tank in the dash. it would be nicer looking than a GPS unit.

[brandon429]

I've wanted an in-car fish tank ever since I watched "Im gonna git you sucka" but never wanted to consider the temp issues. How about a kenwood pullout reef?

Carl that's a gem of a find. Cool thread, I was even posting on nanoreef.com back then and don't recall that one. Another factor I would add to the qualifying mix would be longevity of the system, in order to prevent things just being stuck in small containers and photographed but shutting down in one-two months. This debate over required-lifespan to be considered a working reef starts to take the same lines as the pico/nano cutoff sizes, a subjective call but one at least starting to objectify into the 2.5 range as more and more people just agree on the matter. When Chris Marks changed over the site to the new version a lot of those old threads became inaccessible due to link changes, but they exist somewhere. Fun reading for sure to see all the experimentation. In the early days I was trying to figure out how to dose powdered aragonite through panty-hose diffusers and all kinds of crap not designed to disseminate precipitated particles :)
but hey we worked with what we had. As exists today, the most common approach was frequent water changes to maintain ion levels but then the new angle became how far can one extend water changes to bring the pico reef close to standard-reef maintenances. At that point, liquid dosers had to come into play to counteract the wild pH swings an aged-and-fed pico reef will display, then after that stony coral input became fequent and common. Interesting lineage to say the least. Let's keep looking for threads that mention pico, I hope I'm correct because that's the farthest back I can reach to take an educated guess on the verbiage

lemme go search reefs dot org, brb

[Carl_in_Florida]

I don't know of any long life picos especially <1gal. Look at what melev did. He has an existing tank so when he did a small tank it was better than 90% of the others the first day. He does 200% water changes every couple of days.

My favorite small tank was liquid's but that is now long gone (as is liquid apparently).

quick side note - you can see in those early threads how chris began plugging his site here on rc. Think that's a no no on his site.

Carl

[tinyreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6591916#post6591916 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by brandon429
No one was working with sub-gallon systems in 2001-2002, I mean no one. even 2.5's were the cutting edge practiced by about 5 collective people surfing the web and reefing at the same time...
[...]
On this site, the only people I can mention that may be able to corroborate or deny my story are Agu, Lunchbucket and maybe EdKruzel if I'm not mistaken. I remember knowing rscheng long about 03 and there still weren't more than a handfull by then. i had a 1-gallon hex reef running in '98. i didn't even know the term "nano" or "pico" then. hell, i just learned "reef tank" shortly before.

it was a very simple tank though: csl's smaller sealights, ugf-modified to a diy protein skimmer, xenia, and a couple of :mumblemumble:. only ran it for like 9 mos. or so(?), gimme a break, it was 8-years ago.

but i think there were a number of such small tanks around back then, in secret. the animosity of the anti-nano sentiment prevalent then (and still whispered now imo) kept a lot of such tanks "under wraps". it definitely did for me.

remember, we got flamed for 29g/30g/even 40g tanks. i wasn't about to sidle up and post i had a 10g, 5.5g or smaller tank! i would've been char-broiled and filleted.

btw are you talking about NR's liquid or RDO's liquid? two different people. liquid-NR had the 2.5g pico powered by a 70W MH iirc. very sweet tank and an inspiration to many early nano'ers (as was your uber-picos/femtos, brandon)

he's working too hard nowadays, job, family, new house, blah blah blah. no time for reefs. the whiner. :lol:

and btw that's rcsheng brandon! :p

[Carl_in_Florida]

I was talking about NR liquid. Funny that he says he was to busy for the tank, remember when he posted that update and hadn't done anything in 7 months?
Whats another year or two?

I still try to avoid answering questions when people as how big my tank is.

Oh well

Carl

[tinyreef]

i'm friends with mike but his thread just got too frickin' long. i stopped following it waay back then and i think he did too basically.

i think he needed to prune pretty regularly though. brandon does the same, i believe. i read some of brandon's techniques and was totally blown away by his level of commitment to that. i'm much too lazy. bleah.

but liquid's new job (new added responsibilities iirc) and new house (couple of false starts there, as well) really threw him for a loop time-wise. i still say to him, ditch the kids and wife, only the tank really loves/needs you! :lol:

i know what you mean though about talking with people about tank size. i definitely avoid it (in-person) but online it's easier to just click a link. :rollface:

but it's still an issue at some lfs and some reefkeepers. <sigh>

[brandon429]

Been known to transpose a few critical consonants and leave misplaced hyphens a time or two :bum:

Good call on the underground reefers, bashing is about right for sure tiny and that's one thing I'll always remember about Eric Borneman--he never took sides against anyone's creativity unless something was obsurd or stated as fact w/o scientific regard. I always thought it was cool of him to consider the poor man's diminutive reef and the new science angles they might validly represent... he always had great insight and was willing to actively chat regarding early pico attempts.

I was amazed to see basically the predecessor to today's azoo palm tank/red sea picos in that thread so long ago. Clip on lights rock. When I mentioned Liquid I was meaning Shane on rdo, I thought he said that one day and we all laughed.

[brandon429]

Been known to transpose a few critical consonants and leave misplaced hyphens a time or two :bum:

Good call on the underground reefers, bashing is about right for sure tiny and that's one thing I'll always remember about Eric Borneman--he never took sides against anyone's creativity unless something was obsurd or stated as fact w/o scientific regard. I always thought it was cool of him to consider the poor man's diminutive reef and the new science angles they might validly represent... he always had great insight and was willing to actively chat regarding early pico attempts.

I was amazed to see basically the predecessor to today's azoo palm tank/red sea picos in that thread so long ago. Clip on lights rock. When I mentioned Liquid I was meaning Shane on rdo, I remember he said that one day (pico) and it was the first time I'd heard/read/considered it as a term. Ever wondered who invented adding "izzle"to everything as a late-90's piglatin? I dunno, but I submit snoop as my first guess. What about piglatin itself? How could that corny crap become transmitted around every schoolyard in the nation long about 6th grade? Oral history/origins are quirky and wierd! Maybe we did that for pico reefs.

B

[Agu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6593262#post6593262 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Carl_in_Florida


I still try to avoid answering questions when people as how big my tank is.

Anybody with enough money can have a big tank , but you have to know your stuff to have a successful small tank long term. Just had a person over who qualifies for the "Big Tank" forum. He was blown away by my tanks because he didn't think it was possible. He also said he hoped his tank could look that good someday :lol: .


Back when you people got into small tanks I was still into bigger is better so I have no clue about how the designations evolved.

However the smallest tank I remember seeing was owned by one of the founders of this board, LarryM. At the time the custom nano tanks weren't available so he built an acrylic tank with total volume of about 3 gallons. It was basically a nanocube with an internal overflow and back sump. That would have been in "99 because I met him before this board was started. He ran that tank for a couple of years.