fo --> fow/LR

[dmorel]

Well I have decided I am going to loose the battle trying to keep a fish only with mechanical filtration only.

two massive 50% water changes and adding a third filter helped and the water was sparkling clear for a week, but it's already getting nasty again, and my tests this evening showed the water condition less then optimal.
I am treating a fuzzed out eye on a new blue jaw trigger with hypo salinity instead of any copper or anything else, which I have tried in the past with no success.

I guess it's time to add a sump, and a TON of live rock.

Tank is a 125.

Issues:
I need ~150lbs of live rock.
I would rather not have to cure it if I can get rock that is really
"live" locally, rather then mail order something which will die off in transit enough to cause a cycle.

I need to be able to make the switch with the tank inhabited, as I have no where else to put these fish for very long.

I have a 20g. long I could set up to house some of them, but no way could I move them all into a 20g for more then an hour...

I have used copper power in the last few months. It claims to stay in the water, my test kit is flaky at best for copper and I don't trust it. I suppose I should invest in another one asap, but I am concerned about the leaching effect.
I am never going to keep corals in this tank, but the long term plan is to connect it to the (proposed) new reef and have everything use the same eco-system.
Am in a world of danger here?

Fish are:
pb tang
hippo tang
clown trigger
blue jaw trigger
niger trigger
Yes, the triggers all do fine together...
dog face puffer
small snowflake eel (who jumped out of the tank last night, was found presumably dead on the floor at 6:30 this morning covered in grime, and is now fine and eating again in the tank...)


Ugh, any thoughts please let me know.
I know this is sort of a vague post, I'm just a little frustrated, I worked really hard on the reef over the last two months and it paid off big time, it's looking better and better every day.
Still have some algae, no doubt due to my high phosphate level, I think the ro/di is a must have...
Anyway, now it's time to devote the same effort to the fish only.

thanks,
-dm

[kcolagio]

OK, let me tell you what I currently have in my tank and then give my suggestions, and you can take it for what it's worth.

About a month ago, I had a lot of hair algae...just ask Guy.

Then I added a new overflow (probably pretty minor in the scope of this discussion) and removed my mechanical filter (this I think was the big thing).

So, my tank is the following:
-- Water (roughly 80 gallons...75 tank, 15 sump, minus LR and LS displaced water)
-- live sand (4+ inches)
-- live rock (0.8 lbs per gallon)
-- heater

I have NO mechanical filtration, NO skimmer, NO bioballs and LESS THAN 1 pound of Live Rock per gallon.

My hair algae is VIRTUALLY GONE. Sure, there is a little on the rocks, but my conchs are starting to really have to work to find anything to eat (I will have to start giving Nori in the next day or two).

My Macro algae is NOT growing as fast as it once did....so that's not taking all the nitrates.

The only thing I can figure out is that the waste is getting fully broken down in the sand and live rock. There are bubbles coming out of the sand on a regular basis.

Given my experience, I am going to suggest getting a 4 inch sand bed in the tank and seed it with about 1 lb of live sand from an existing system. Then add about 50 lbs of dead rock (to keep costs down). Remove (slowly) all the filtering material over the next week or two, and then give the tank about a month or two to stablize even more, and you should see the hair algae on the decline.

Also, if you dose with Kalk, the Kalk should help remove some of the CO2 in the tank, stealing it form the hair algae which will slow down the photosynthesis process.

Just some ideas....do as you will.

[kcolagio]

Oh, one other thing....I feed heavily. Over 1 teaspoon of flake food/krill/freeze dried shrimp/shrimp pellets (crushed up in a coffee grinder) a day...with occasionally (2 to 3 times a week) frozen brine and/or frozen krill and/or home made food.

Yes, I have given all 3 frozen things in one day, as well as the dry mix.

*shrug* YMMV.

[dmorel]

Kevin,
thanks for the thoughtful post.

My problem is not with hair algae, it's more cloudy water and general water chemistry, I am starting to measure amo and nitrates, where I once wasn't. The tank cruised along fine for a few months, when it was just two tangs and a trigger, but any bio-load above that, I just can't handle in the tank without some form of biological filtration.

I have a 29g that I will use as the sump, with a refugium section in the middle for macro algae, and I have a 6 bags of southdown I could use to enhance the sand bed, it's only about 1-2" deep now, but I am not sure how I could get that into the tank without really bumming out my fishes.

My main concern is that I have used a product called copper power to treat an infection within the last 1-2 months (I admit it I didn't write it down, and now I can't remember how long ago it was) so I am concerned about adding live anything to the tank.
I know leaching copper will kill inverts, but what about live rock?
Are the beneficial bacteria equally as susceptible to distress/destruction/death from residual copper?
If so, is there anything I can do short of setting up a whole other tank and transferring the fishes when it cycles?
What would the copper hang around in? Sandbed/ current"dead" rock? I could (and would) remove the current rock that is there for shelter if/when I add the live rock, but I see no real way of removing the entire sand bed, especially if I intend to keep the fish in the tank.


[A note on the copper treatment, it didn't help and I am now trying hypo-salinity to treat my ill trigger.]

Ah, another disjointed and lengthy post by me.
What a surprise...
-dm

[dmorel]

And while your post was talking about solving an algae problem, your advice is certainly spot on.

I intend to do most of what you suggest.
Adding the live rock and adding a sump is my number one immediate priority, while 50lbs of dead rock is way cheaper then 100+ pounds of live rock, there are times when I grin and bear it for the sake of the tanks. I could head up to MO and get a bunch of rock from him, that back tank usually is full of stuff that could genuinely be considered cured and live and ready to be put in a tank. <insert the same old concern about copper here>

I just wanted to clarify that I appreciated your post and that I hear what your saying. I didn't dismiss it just because I don't have hair algae, since after all the cases are just different symptoms of less then perfect water quality.

regards,
"rambling" dave morel

[kcolagio]

Dave,

A few things...

1) the copper will not bother the bacteria...look at all the people with cycled tanks that use tap water. Tap water picks up trace amounts of copper as it comes through the pipes...

2) Add the sand 1/2 inch at a time over 1/2 the tank (alternate increases) every 3 to 5 days. The fish will be fine (it will be like a storm came through....). Everything in a tank can cope with sand in the water...or they wouldn't have lived through thousands of years of ocean weather. ;)

3) To get rid of the copper, you can get Poly Pads. These will filter out almost all of the non-desireables from what I hear. They cost anywhere from $6 and up at PetWarehouse...no idea if you can even get them locally. They will pull copper out of the tank, and change color to indicate what they are taking.

4) The ammonia is probably because there isn't enough room on the substrate (as you probably know)...so adding the sand will help solve that immediately. Just turn off the pumps, and using a 3" piece of PVC, get the sand to the bottom. I assume there is no rock in there, so this should be easy.

5) I don't get upset if someone doesn't listen....like I said, it's your tank, I just give advice. :)

6) To clarify the water, you can also use activated carbon. Put it in a nylon mesh bag and place it somewhere where water is forced through it. Replace it every few days and you should get most of the stuff out that is making it cloudy.

So you know, while I don't post a huge amount over here, I'm very active in the SaltWater Aquariums group (formerly a club) at Yahoo. I'm just bouncing around a bit more since they switched to that horrible "group" system. ;)

Let me know if you need any other ideas...I can probably dig a few more up.

[BCooksey]

Dave, I can babysit a few fish if you have to tear down.

[dmorel]

Thanks man,
I am hoping to not have to go through that.
I liked the PVC pipe to add sand, and I do have plenty of SD sitting around, other then that, I might just try and run the poly pads as suggested, do some massive water changes and get a whole mess of live rock in there.

Where the hell was I when that guy was giving away like 300lbs of the stuff!!! UGH!

going to make it happen pretty soon I think

[dank11]

hey! one way to add sand without clouding the tank really bad is to ]
get a length of 2/3 inch PVC and pour it in lifting the tube off the bottom as you go along
It helped when I added sand
good luck

[cperson]

Dave,
FWIW I think you should maintain some mechanical filtration, including carbon. Your water will be clearer. Make sure you have enough snails, crabs, etc. also. I didn't notice any in your 120 currently. The refugium is way to export excess nutrients. Sort of sounds like your going to set it up as another reef tank without the corals. Could be a cool thing to put in some big anemones, if the lighting is right.