Bare-bottom Before/After Photos...

[PITSTOP]

With Southdown...

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-PITSTOP_-_Back_Display.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-106_0697.JPG

After removal of the DSB...

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-Left_Corals_Dec_05.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-Bellus_Left_Side_Dec_05.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-Tenius_Close_Dec_05.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-bellus_close-med.jpg

[SeanT]

Nice,
Show us a full tank pic.
We know you have algae still but you will be able to track it going away so long as you remember to siphon R-E-G-U-L-A-R-L-Y. :)

Sean

[Sindjin]

What a difference.

So did you cook your rocks?

[arconom]

More pics.

[drock59]

is that tank in a classroom?

[GregM779]

just curious, do you honestly think it was your shallow sandbed that caused all of that algae growth??

[PITSTOP]

Yes, it is in my science lab for 7th graders, middle school in Connecticut. I did the research, wrote the grant to Toshiba, built the system and have been running it for 2 years.

More pix soon...

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-Top_Down_Dec_05.jpg

[PITSTOP]

GregM779 - To answer your question, no. I do not blame my sand bed, I blame my approach to running a system with a sand bed. The sand bed became to labor intensive/complicated/expensive (critters) for me to maintain. For me, it is far easier running the barebottom; all I do is routine maintenance, I no longer wrestle with unending problems/issues with waste removal and water quality.

I, like all of us, have seen amazing systems with sand and without. Due to the tank being in my classroom, I opted for the easiest approach for my situation.

[GregM779]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6248733#post6248733 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PITSTOP
GregM779 - To answer your question, no. I do not blame my sand bed, I blame my approach to running a system with a sand bed. The sand bed became to labor intensive/complicated/expensive (critters) for me to maintain. For me, it is far easier running the barebottom; all I do is routine maintenance, I no longer wrestle with unending problems/issues with waste removal and water quality.

I, like all of us, have seen amazing systems with sand and without. Due to the tank being in my classroom, I opted for the easiest approach for my situation.

That's good, do whatever works and is easiest to maintain for you. I just see a lot of threads nowadays where it shows a dirty algae overgrown tank with sand for the before pic and the after pic is clean, pruned of algae and corals and fish are added giving all of the credit to the removal of the sandbed which makes it somewhat misleading to new reefers out there browsing our forums for advice.

BTW, the tank looks very nice now.

[PITSTOP]

UPDATED PIX!

Again, this is the system I built in the back of my 7th grade Biology lab/classroom. It has been in operation for 2 1/2 years.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-Classroom_reef_Jan_06.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-barebottom_Jan_06.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-Reef_Right_Side_Jan_06.jpg

[rizkeeper]

Sidjin - does your name mean "cooking" in latin?

Tank looks GREAT??? Did you upgrade any equipment wen you went BB? If so what?

[PUGroyale]

Anybody ever think using Southdown or like sand versus using aquarium specific [like CaribSea] sand might cause more algea problems? Maybe it's just me but it seems a great deal of the DSB/algea problem threads involve home store sand...

Sorry for the sidetrack it just struck me again seeing that algea ;)

[PITSTOP]

The major changed I made when I went bare bottom was upping the flow in the tank significantly especially along the bottom - big huge green tang poo's get blasted apart almost instantly and then get blasted out of the water by my AquaC EV 180 overdriven by a MAG 9.5 - lots of wet skimming.

I use a GEO 612 calcium recator with Pinpoint pH controller too.

I added the 3 SEIO Superflow 1500's when I went barebottom.

[Theace50]

WOW thats amazing

[jay24k]

Not sure about the sand. Looks like you are getting your tank to a good start regardless of sand. I do notice in the first pics, I see very few corals. The next set appears to be you stocking it and completely cleaning/curing/cooking the rocks.

I think whatever works for you and if it requires less maitenance, then stick with it especially in a classroom where you aren't around it all day per se.

[xtrstangx]

Looks sweet. Kinda makes me want to go BB on my next tank.

[Orangeman]

Looks nice! The downside is now you're gonna have to buy fishfood... :)

[REEF-DADDY]

Nice!

[Samala]

Well.. you had some very nice examples of macros that are not so often seen in the hobby. I happen to like macros unless they are really taking over.. but the before/after shots are great for this system. :) A serious overhaul and change for stocking, scaping and all else. I guess this particular recipe works well for serious reef tanks.

>Sarah

[cougaran]

Any problems with the yellow and hippo tang? I'm getting a yellow and was thinking of eventually getting a hippo, but read not to do it.

[fakename]

Imagine how happy those tangs were in that algae infested paradise ;)
GReat looking tank, I'm sure your students love it! Do you teach around it at all, or is it just for enjoyment?
Aaron

[PITSTOP]

fakename - yes, i use the reef as a teaching tool throughout the year - it provides endless example of biological concepts.


cougaran - I had the yellow tang for over a year before the hippo - the yellow was very aggressive towards it for about a month, then it finally gave in and now they are friends! Personally, I like my Kole tang the best!

[Caillou]

You have a very nice looking tank!

[SeanT]

Very nice!

[elephen]

Looks good man! I like the clean BB look.

[deansreef]

i started my 180 as a BB and plan on staying with the BB.

nice classy tank by the way, no pun intended

[garymcgrath]

I don't see any "racks" to hold the live rock and coral off the bottom as some suggest. I am thinking of going barebottom and am not sure if the racks are needed and/or helpful. Any thoughts?

[Wiskey]

Wow, what a diffrence,... How much time passed before the "sand" and "no sand" picutes?

Garymcgrath, I cut up a plastic coat hanger, drilled holes in my bottom rocks and used the coat hanger as pegs to keep the rock up a little. This works very well and is a lot easer to hide. I am very glad I did it because it makes my rockwork more stable.

Thanks,
Whiskey

[garymcgrath]

Wiskey,
Great idea! How deep did you drill and how long do the "legs" stick out?

[sdebol]

Very nice tank, indeed. My son would love to have a tank like that in his classroom!

I noticed there is some type of diffuser on one of the powerheads--can you explain what that is, whether you like it (I'm assuming yes), and where I can get them?!

Thanks,
Steve

[PITSTOP]

The rotating devices are widely avaiable on most popular reefing web-stores - look in the wavemaking categories - they are like $13 - and yes I like the a lot. They cut down on some of the flow, but the benefit is excellent.

No racks under my rocks - on the glass!

[Wiskey]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6483448#post6483448 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by garymcgrath
Wiskey,
Great idea! How deep did you drill and how long do the "legs" stick out?

I used a cheap macenry bit (rock was very easy to drill) I drilled about 1/2 inch in, put super glue on the pegs then shoved them in, being carefull not to let the rock dry. The pegs stick out 1/8 to 1/2 inch, I used 3 pegs per rock so they don't rock (no pun intended) and how far the pegs stuck out was deturmined by how I wanted the rock to sit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/whiskey27/100_6380.jpg

Thanks,
Whiskey

[Wiskey]

Those are the hydor rotating deflectors right?

Whiskey

[JimR]

How do you upkeep the tank during summer vacation? Teachers here split for most the summer.

[Triggerfish]

basically it shows before=tank a mess
and
after=tank cleaned/rearanged/stocked

???????????

[xinumaster]

Does the skimmate really has to be a lot wet when going BB?

pitstop, tank looks very clean.

[PITSTOP]

Triggerfish - In response to your comment, before I was doing water changes FREQUENTLY and harvesting algae daily - nothing I could do to get on top of the situation. After removal of my sand (and I had the whole cleaning crew thing going on - always buying clean-up crews) the algae dissappeared (at least 90% of it), water cleared up, most importantly much easier to maintain.

Again, this is my personal experience backed by photo documentation. I have (we all have) seen amazing systems with sand beds - I am not debating the merits of DSB's. Considering my situation (classroom tank), going bare bottom was the best thing I have done.

This coral was almost dead before removal of my sand bed:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-tricolor.jpg

About Summer vacation - I visit the tank every 10 days or so...I always have business at the school anyway - I am the dept chair, so I have budget responsibilities, curricula to tend to, chemical storage to deal with, yadda yadda.......any excuse to play with my REEF!!!!

[PITSTOP]

xinumaster - I wet skim a lot, while I am with my tank, I wet skim like no tomorrow, at night I dial it down to very dark to prevent floods. My collection container is a 5 gallon bucket that I empty every other day (not always full btw)

[TheCoralReef731]

I wish you were my 7th grade teacher. Wow.

[Triggerfish]

i think i missed it ...but how old was the DSB?
it looked very very clean.
no diatoms,dinos,ciano, on the bottom or glass, just hair on the rocks.

[raskal311]

Did the rocks clean it self after going BB or did you take them out and cleaned them yourself? Looks like the tank was in good shape prior to going BB. The alga on the rocks don’t look the type that comes from an unhealthy tank. And other then better looking sps I think the before tank looks much better.

[PITSTOP]

raskal311 - When I switched over to bare bottom, I 'reset' the system. I emptied the display tank - dry - cleaned it inside and out with vinegar, scrapped all algae off the glass with a razer - the tank looked new again, cleaned the sump the same way. The rocks I obviously took out and picked them clean and scrubbed them with a hard brissle plastic brush and dunked them into several buckets of the reefwater that I saved. I then placed all the livestock into a 55 gallon temporary tank I set up using water from the reef I saved. I filled the main reef with new RO/DI and new salt and then let that season overnight (up to temp, up to salinity, aerated, etc.).

I did not cook my rocks, however if I was going to set up a brand new reef I would cook my rocks for 3 months.

[coralnut99]

I've got the same question as triggerfish. I'm more curious of how deep it was. I run shallow beds in my tanks, and until they matured, the algae problem was present on the sand as well. The first pic shows a snow-white sand. Could you also please supply some other system info, like lighting, photoperiod, and filtration?

I'm sure it's a hit with the kids!

[raskal311]

Do you think your problem with maintaining the tank was because it was Southdown sand? Or just sand in general? I’ve seen Southdown and have to say its got to be a pain the $$ to maintain.

[Triggerfish]

i think i was a bit confused as to the intent of this thread.
i thought you were trying to relate some how the difference in the pics solely to removal of sand??

i don't even see the blue tip acro in the old pics?? where is it in there, if under algae then by removing the algae of course it would be more likely to color up...?

also you may be able to increase flow in the BB without a sand blast,,i think that's one reason folks go that way with sps setups.

not sure how a sand bed would be expensive to maintain..how much you paying for a few hermits?
also,, the tank will have the same waste as it did before,,no?
it will still need to be removed either by siphoning or with increased mechanical filters. if your rocks are set firm on the bottom that's where to look as stuff will accumulate under there..you should raise them up.

note: not attempting to argue either way the benefits of either approach..that has been done plenty already..
just directly responding to what you are posting here..:D

[PITSTOP]

Here is my classroom system - you can see pix in my gallery:

> 120 gallon diplay, 40 gallon sump, 10 gallon frag - barebottom

> AquaC EV 180 with John Guest fitting (for ozonizer) overdriven by a MAG 9.5 for wet skimming

> GEO 612 calcium reactor w/Pinpiont pH controller

> 2x250 DE MH's (10K AB's) + 2x110 VHO Superactinic

> three SEIO 1500 Superflows, 6 Maxijet 1200's (2 with hydor rotators)

> Lifereef Double overflow (1600 gph), MAG 18 return

> 2 phosban reactors - 1 with carbon, the other with Phosban

> Kalkwasser drip 1-2 times per week

> No additives at this time besides water changes

> Tropic Marin salt, 4-stage RO/DI

Here is an old pic of the entire system in the back of my lab with the DSB (Southdown) - too much algae for the SPS:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-PITSTOP_-_Full_system_Front.jpg

[MadTownMax]

:rolleyes: I kinda liked the look of the algae in the before pic :D

Was that florida aquacultured rock - or did the macro come from somewhere else?

Personally I run my system with a very small amount of sand so it doesn't have the "sterile" look of BB, but seeing that tank full of macro is an interesting alternative type of tank to the clean SPS tank that you're running now.

In any case, wish I had some cool teachers with tanks when I was in school :thumbsup:

[Triggerfish]

that's the cleanest/whitest DSB i have ever seen.. was that mainly due to some type of DSB maintenance, if so, what exactly were you doing?

[coralnut99]

Hmmm. Did you run the Phosban reactor with the DSB?

[PITSTOP]

The DSB was 100% Southdown.

I cleaned the southdown in buckets many times before adding it to the system.

About keeping the sand clean, about once per week, I would remove the hood, stand on a stool, and gently mix the sand with my bare hand - while mixing the sand, I would pull up and algaes that were trying to move into the sand bed - it was fairly easy to keep the sand clean using this technique.

The rock is a mixture of Florida (TBS), Fiji and African aquacultured(Cami rock?)

I did have an amazing assortment of macroalgae - huge fronds of sargassum, rare red macros, etc.

Eventually, a real bad strain of caulerpa started to take over the system - it consumed everything - vines with tight clusters of grapes.

Even with 3 tangs (yellow, kole yellow eye and hippo) - none of them would even go near it - real toxic cr@p.

The toxic caulerpa was the main reason I nuked the system and went bare bottom - so, yes I too liked the intersting macros, but could not beat the deadly caulerpa.

[GregM779]

I don't think the SB was your problem either because that algae just looks like hitchhiker algae.
I do believe that southdown does cause more problems than the couple of bucks that you save by not buying LS. I used all aragalive when I setup my tank.

[PITSTOP]

Maybe so...

All I know is that with my bare bottom system I am not battling anything - just pure straightforward maintenance, which was my goal all along.

Instead of solving the next problem/issue, I can concentrate on water changes, simple cleanings and colorful SPS.

The lesson I am taking away from this is: If I were going to recommend an approach for taking care of a reef tank in a classroom, I would recommend bare bottom. IMHO easier to maintain and you do not have to spend $$$ on LS, or cleaning crews.

Come on, lemme hear the rebuttles!!! ;-)

[GregM779]

I don't want to start an argument but I still think that a proper SB is cheaper to run than a proper BB. To do the BB properly you need a very good skimmer and tons of flow which means more money on equipment. I spent about $100 for the SB in my 125g so in your 4 ft tank that should be about $66.
I also think a sandbed is less work, no siphoning, less waterchanges....

[PITSTOP]

You have a point, but I like the huge flow and wet skimming. I also like my skimmer a lot (I know it is not the best), but it does the job, built solidly, easy to clean and wet skims like a champ.

[raskal311]

I skim very wet and have 2-m1100, 2-MJ1200, 400gph after head loss on my return pump and plan on adding another m1100 soon on my 90gal and I also have a ssb without any problems with the sand moving around.

[10" Red Devil]

omg I liked the Algae! Am I the only one. It looked so great. Kinda like a marine planted tank.

Reminded me of a lagoonal tank, very nice!

[got2lb]

Man that's an awesome Bellus angel! I've really been thinking about getting one. They're pretty big $$$ though. Any problems with it nipping at anything?

[GregM779]

the flow in my 125g is a SEIO 1100 and 820 and a maxijet, my return is 1800GPH so there's about 3800 GPH through my 125g.

[PITSTOP]

About the Bellus - hardly any nipping at all - in fact I have never witnessed the bellus ever nipping at a coral - every once in a while she takes a little nip at the rock work, but that's it - she is primarily a planktivore - eats the frozen food like a pig! Paid $130

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/49365mini-bellus_close-med.jpg

[PUGroyale]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6490578#post6490578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PITSTOP

Come on, lemme hear the rebuttles!!! ;-)

Clearly you're not an English teacher :lol: ...j/k. Just couldn't resist :D

[jacmyoung]

For those of you needed battle with algae in a DSB system, how long from the initial setup did it take for the algea problem to be out of control? Did you have to battle from the beginning?

I just setup my 120g tank two months ago with two separate DSBs in the 20g sump, and 2" sand bed in the main tank for my yellow coris wrasse. Had the inital several cycles of bad algea growth both in the tank and the sump but now only macroalgea are growing in the sump, and my main tank is free of visible algea. I do have cleaning crew in the main tank.

I haven't started to siphon the fish waste in the main tank yet, and there is a lot of it, but there is still no sign of algea problem to emerge yet. In fact I have to feed my fish formular 2 now because they have run out of algea to feed in the tank.

How long do you guys with DSB experience believe my current condition will last? I am taking a not-broken-don't-fix-it approach for now but like to know what to expect down the road.

[got2lb]

Man I love that fish! I thought your tank was mainly sps but it looks like you have some zoos as well. My tank is going to be mainly a softy/lps tank so still not sure if I want to trust one or not. You got yours for a pretty good price. Did you get it online?

[toxqc]

First of all this is not a DSB it's a SSB(shallow) you look like you have 1" or 2" sand bed... Then, I think you had major algea because you did'nt have any flow, you added the Powerheads after you went BB. I also think that a DSB or SSB is less work then a BB

[coralnut99]

I was kind of headed where toxqc was. I was really trying to figure out what triggered the difference. From the last picture, it was clearer that this wasn't a dsb to start with, but I was wondering about the timing of adding the phosban reactor (partly because I'm thinking about one), increased waterflow, etc.

fwiw, I run ssb in three of my systems, so I'm not picking a side here, I'm just trying to pick some things here that may have made a big difference that I can give some thought to. I would also be curious to know how long the dsb was in place and if it was seeded at all. Just looking for things to help myself and anyone else looking through this and similar threads to make their own decisions.

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6490489#post6490489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PITSTOP
gently mix the sand with my bare hand

how deep into the bed did you go? anything beyond very top layer could produce problems..
what was the tanks PO4 levels?

[toonces]

i also really liked the first example with the macros. in fact, i liked it better.

i'd gladly grow that in my tank if i could (minus the toxic caulerpa).

[REEF-DADDY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6491435#post6491435 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by toxqc
First of all this is not a DSB it's a SSB(shallow) you look like you have 1" or 2" sand bed... Then, I think you had major algea because you did'nt have any flow, you added the Powerheads after you went BB. I also think that a DSB or SSB is less work then a BB


Come on now the trim rim on that tank is 1" and more likely 1.5". He has at least 3 " in there maybe 4". No one is asking that you like BB tanks, he is just saying he likes that method better for his needs.

[toxqc]

I dont think he was doing it right... he needed alot more flow then he had

[coralnut99]

I'm just tryin to get a handle on some of the before and after facts. I'm just trying to see what changed besides just removing the sand, however deep it was.

[REEF-DADDY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6491525#post6491525 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralnut99
I was kind of headed where toxqc was. I was really trying to figure out what triggered the difference. From the last picture, it was clearer that this wasn't a dsb to start with, but I was wondering about the timing of adding the phosban reactor (partly because I'm thinking about one), increased waterflow, etc.

fwiw, I run ssb in three of my systems, so I'm not picking a side here, I'm just trying to pick some things here that may have made a big difference that I can give some thought to. I would also be curious to know how long the dsb was in place and if it was seeded at all. Just looking for things to help myself and anyone else looking through this and similar threads to make their own decisions.

I just made the same conversion and heres what I've learned.

It really come down to flow, and it a BB tank its 100% easier to get the flow you need to keep detritus from building up. My 280 looks like a hot tub, theres no way I could of gotten that flow in my old 125 DSB. In either system if you can get detritus out before it breaks down you'll be successful. That being said between the water clarity and ease of operation I am much happier BB.

Do you have measurable po4?

[jacmyoung]

My tank (explained above) has minimal flow, provided by my return pump only at maybe 600gph. I don't even have any liverock, it is FO (but lighted with MH) overstocked with fish already, yet still no visible algae and water clarity went through a similar cycles of cloudy/clear when the bad algae were cycling, now it is crystal clear.

The only thing I can attribute to the success is either the DSBs or the macroalgae in my sump or the combination of both. but since DSB takes nearly 6 months to fully mature, can macroalgae have such a big impact? I haven't even harvested any macroalgae yet but they are lighted 24/7 and appear to have good growth.

I am a little concerned reading some many bad things about DSB these days, hoping my good tank condition is not just a temporary thing. I do plan to introduce corals at some point since the system is reef-ready.

[MadTownMax]

Pitstop - I know what you mean about the grape-like caulerpa - that stuff is horrible, I've been fighting it ever since I got a small piece on a frag and it started spreading. You can go over every piece with a tweezers and still the roots will start a new strand, and it grows faster than anything else I've seen.

Not to be rude guys, but maybe you could squabble in your own thread instead of filling this one with rhetorical Sand bed VS. bare bottom comments :rolleyes:

[jacmyoung]

Where is that DSB vs. BB thread?

[REEF-DADDY]

just do a search, there are many

[smp]

I thought for a DSB to work you're not supposed to stir it. You mentioned stirring it up once a week picking away any algae.
The way I understand one is supposed to leave the sand alone and let it sort itself out?
Don't you upset the various layers of bacteria which are the whole reason for a DSB???

[joefish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6490578#post6490578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PITSTOP
Maybe so...

All I know is that with my bare bottom system I am not battling anything - just pure straightforward maintenance, which was my goal all along.

Instead of solving the next problem/issue, I can concentrate on water changes, simple cleanings and colorful SPS.

The lesson I am taking away from this is: If I were going to recommend an approach for taking care of a reef tank in a classroom, I would recommend bare bottom. IMHO easier to maintain and you do not have to spend $$$ on LS, or cleaning crews.

Come on, lemme hear the rebuttles!!! ;-)

The tank looks great !:thumbsup:

I went through the same exact situation , it's funny how certain individuals can't get over the fact BB do work and work well .;)

[gman0526]

There's actually a very nice thread on DSB's going on that could use new participants... might wanna take a look at it guys ;) And I mean whoever wants to talk about DSB's working or not.

[Gudwyn]

I think it looks nice both before and after. I'm currently getting ready to tear down my BB tank and redo the flow. Hopefully my tank will end up looking like your after shots.

As far as the macros go, I had some gorgeous macros also for a while. But like you, I eventually got some pest algaes that outcompeted (razor calpura and some dinoflagualites). And then it starts to be a real pain.