Seascope... don't believe everything that you read.

[mrbast74]

I just got through reading the volume 18 summer 2001 edition of seascope. I normally really like what I read here, but...

In the article entitled "Reef Tank Nuisances and controls", the author Micheal Paletta, makes some statements that I can't help but wonder about.

"The best way to rid a tank of flatworms is to introduce a mandarin fish, which will also consume other microfauna in the tank"

I think it is dangerous for the author to recommend this means of eradication without warning of the potential for starvation once the flatworms and pods are gone. I think a sixline wrasse or something of that nature would be a safer recommendation.



When talking about hair algae, valonia, and general control of algae, the author recommends "a mix of different species of tangs and rabbitfish." the author offers a list of potential tangs that could be useful and proceeds to state, "A good variety allows every individual to find something to eat. The author recommends against "lawnmower blennies" siting them as "unpredictable"

The article contains no mention of the appropriateness of tangs and doesn't qualify the statement with any suggested tank size. I guess if I were just beginning to get into reefkeeping I would deduce from the article that when it comes to tangs in my tank, the more the merrier.

The last statement seems antiquated:

"Bristleworms and fireworms are well known enemies of the invertebrate aquarium. They are frequently stowaways on live rock or corals, and eat virtually any sedentary invertebrate, but are particularly fond of Euphyllia and all types of soft corals."

They sound evil, Why is it that I am purposely adding them too my aquarium again. When was the last time you guys found your soft corals decimated by bristle worms? I have yet to see it.

Just a couple of gripes I had with the article from the information source I used to love and trust.

Any thoughts or feel like a discussion, I'm game.

[Zepplin]

Funny that you mentioned Michael S. Paletta... When i first started the hobby, the dude at the (crappy) LFS suggested buying Paletta's book, so naturally I followed the advice... I must say that I wasn't that impressed with the book. I'm trying to remember the title, but I gave it to a friend about 8 months ago. I think it was titled "The New Marine Aquarium." I'm not putting down the book, but I think it's definately not the best source of advice.
Dan

[RooFish]

I've noticed some iffy info in books and magazines too. It kinda seems like they stay with old technology until the new stuff becomes old, then move on. I htink its because today things move pretty fast, and by the time authors get books out information could be different. Still, you'd think they'd check their information with the experts here on the boards...

[Zepplin]

This is sorta related, but have any of you been really disappointed with your LFS? There's only a few of them locally, and some are really well taken care of, but there's one in particular that I hope drowns so to speak... If you happen to be in this area, i'm SURE you know which one too!! Sadly, they have such a HUGE turnover rate that they just won't go out of business! Just to give you an idea of how outdated they are, when I first bought my tank, they tried to sell me an undergravel filter!!! I (not knowing anything at the time) bought it, but then after reading some books and other stuff on the web, returned it and went with the Berlin method (now switched to DSB). Anyways, i just felt like saying that...
Dan

[mrbast74]

I have been told by LFS owners that DSB's are ticking time bombs and that if I didn't go berlin or trickle filter I would regret it.

I always get funny looks when I ask for a pound of crud off of the bottom of the stores tank or for a nice big bristle worm I see crawling around. They must be getting wise to dsb's or see a potential for profit because the store just raised its price for tank bottom crud from free to 5.99 per pound.

[smariner]

Hey, Michael Paletta writings are great! I think his articles are very interesting and offer a ton of knowledge. I especially like the articles that have been appearing on:

www.aquatic-reflections.com

chadb

[mrbast74]

I am by no means condemning all of Paletta's writing. The problems I see are in this particular article. I just think for the uneducated aquarist looking for education in reefkeeping, this article is at times misleading and at othertimes false and lacking in scientific backing.

[naesco]

I think your comment about qualifying a general statement is right on.
Experienced reefers, especially the well known ones like Paletta, Scott need to understand that newbies read their stuff. Qualifying comments like 'requires very large tank' or 'only for very experienced reefers' give their articles for credibility.
Scott is a fish guy and an expert fish guy. When he talks about size of tank he does not consider that most of us have one hell of a lot of sand, rock and coral in our tanks.

[Anemone]

Originally posted by naesco
Scott is a fish guy and an expert fish guy. When he talks about size of tank he does not consider that most of us have one hell of a lot of sand, rock and coral in our tanks.

And you know this how?

Kevin

[naesco]

About 4 years ago I went to a MACNA convention and Scott gave an excellect presentation. He joked about colourful fish keeping guys and dull frag keeping guys or words to that effect. I came to the conclusion that he was basically a FO guy.

[MiNdErAsR]

Originally posted by mrbast74

"The best way to rid a tank of flatworms is to introduce a mandarin fish..."

Has it even been proven mandarins eat flatworms? It was my understanding that there is a chance they might eat flatworms, but certainly not 100%. As a matter of fact, wasn't it the scooter blenny that got the nod for possible flatworm consumption? I've heard of so many fish that might eat them, but not one that definitely does.

[Randy V]

Aren't scooters and mandarins both dragonets? I think what are commonly sold as scooters are just as hard to keep as any mandarin.

One thing to keep in mind when reading books and articles is the age of the material. This hobby develops quickly. It seems like yesterday that I was told that bristleworms were very bad and should be eradicated from our reef tanks. Some articles may derive from earlier source material. Context is also important in my opinion.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Has it even been proven mandarins eat flatworms? It was my understanding that there is a chance they might eat flatworms, but certainly not 100%.

I'm quite curious about that too, having a fair number of flatworms in one of my refugia. Since I'm thinking of a mandarin for my main tank anyway, he could spend a few months in the refugium fattening up on pods and flatworms, then move on to the main tank.

[dc]

Well I have lots in my refugium and none in my main. I have both Dragenettes, but I have no idea if they have eaten them or they're just not up there:confused:

[DJ88©]

I have seen a several tanks with scooters, mandrins and six lines. All possible flatworm consumers. Of about 5 tanks in my immediate area I have seen personally and plenty of others I haven't seen with those combos only one six-line has eaten them. Several of these tanks have multiple "flatworms" eaters in them. I think it is a rare fish that will eat flatworms, particularly one that is hungry enough to make a dent in a large system.

People going on an on how these fish "will" remove this creature from our tanks is allowing the LFS's to keep on bringing in thse fish with no care given to the fact that they require lots of food as most won't eat prepared food(mandrins and scooters).

These flat worm eaters are hit and miss as is anything in this hobby. One fish may, most won't. Saying they all "will", creates and perpetuates the myth. Dooming many to a slow death due to starvation in a system that can't support them.

IMVHO

[jameso]

This question was one of the ones in the Mandarin Survey II - run last year at www.reefs.org You guys remember that? Probably not...:)

Splendidus Alive results:

http://www.reefs.org/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?survey_name=splendidus_alive

We haven't put together the article on the Survey results yet (Look for it to come out in a future issue of Advanced Aquarist) but I can tell you that it did not indicate that dragonettes all eat flatworms - it was NOT EVEN CLOSE.

I'll see if I can get the exact figure out of the survey results.

Cheers
James

[dc]

I don't feel like anyone is going on and on here. Merely curious. I researched a lot before I purchased mine. Spent about $400 on making my refugium to supply pods for the sole purpose of the Mandarin. Fortunately both mine eat frozen brine.

As far as the survey goes, it's pretty hard to tell what they are eating, everything is so small, and they are always picking at something.

[Anemone]

Originally posted by naesco
About 4 years ago I went to a MACNA convention and Scott gave an excellect presentation. He joked about colourful fish keeping guys and dull frag keeping guys or words to that effect. I came to the conclusion that he was basically a FO guy.

And from this you decided:When he talks about size of tank he does not consider that most of us have one hell of a lot of sand, rock and coral in our tanks.

I think that may be stretching it. I spoke to Scott at WMC last April after a "fish" presentation. I didn't get the idea that he thinks everyone keeps tanks empty of everything but fish.

Kevin

[kevinpo]

There are many different types of flatworms and they occupy different niches in our tanks but in most of the posts I see here they are lumped all together. IME some types are consumed by mandarin/wrasse types fish while others are seldom eaten. I have 2 types but have seen many including the type that cover the substrate/rocks in plague proportions. One I have is a brown type that lives mostly at the gravel line eating algae and is very small. It is consumed by many of my fish if caught in the open resulting in the population being almost non existent in my main tank (I haven't seen one in 6 months or so) while in my 90 growout tank without fish there are a fair amount. Another type I have is fairly large and lives exclusively on LPS/mushroom corals my six line will eat these off of the corals without the ability to deliver a powerful sting. These seem to have no effect on the corals. So IMO people can have very different results with the same fish depending on the type of flatworms they have. I don't think a flatworm is a flatworm is a flatworm ;) and fish may be picky about the ones they find tasty.

Regards,
Kevin

[mrbast74]

"Bristleworms and fireworms are well known enemies of the invertebrate aquarium. They eat virtually any sedentary invertebrate, but are particularly fond of Euphyllia and all types of soft corals."



This is stated as fact in the article. I can't for the life of me figure out where this perception comes from, let alone anything other than very weak anecdotal evidence to prove this as stated.

[mrbast74]

good point kevinpo.

[Agu]

As Dr Ron is fond of saying, there a lot of mythinformation out there. The problem is that this mythinformation has been around so long it's accepted as "fact". Where this particular bristleworm fear comes from; you get up in the morning and your prize clam has died and become bristleworm food. Your immediate (il)logical assumption is that bristleworms are bad and you have to get rid of them. Based on that logic, crows killed that dead deer on the side of the road :eek2: , and flies dragged that twenty pound fish up onto the beach right out of the water :eek1: .

I also think perpetuation of mythinformation is good for some businesses. I asked at an LFS what ate flatworms, and was told mandarins cleaned them up completely. Then I asked why their tanks were full of flatworms, "We sell them so fast to eat flatworms they never are around long enough to clean up out tanks." Yeah right !! It's the same for most of these "problems", the guru has something that'll fix the problem and it's only $XXX.

Regarding the previously mentioned article, I'd say a little peer review is in order.

jmo,
Agu

[naesco]

Kevin next time I see Scott I will ask him directly.
Scott is a man who is really concerned about the welfare of fish.
Oops! Maybe I should take back that statement too.:p

[hcs3]

i also questionsed this article when it was first released. besides the points mrbast74 outlined, mike even covered some predator starfish. after further research, the starfish are not preadators, but detrivores.

as the good dr ron likes to say...

"ever hear of impeccable sources? well, this one is definately peccable."

henry