Generator for winter

[dmbnpj]

Im thinking of purchasing a generator just for the tank for the upcoming winter, just in case power goes out for who knows how long. I have about 15 plugs or so with all the equipment [heater,skimmer pump, return pump, 3 powerheads, 2 metal halide lights-250watt each, 260 watt coralife 50/50 light(with 2 plugs), 2 fans], and whatever other equip. I might have forgotten. Will a 1200 watt generator that sells for about $150 power my system?

Thanks for any help,
Jeff

[Shoestring Reefer]

I'm not shure, you need to add up all the total watts used by your equipment. But you have 760 watts of light alone, and your ballasts are likely drawing 800-900 watts to power them.

You don't need to power ALL of your system, anyways. Heat and water movement are all you need for a couple of days.

Where did you find a $150 generator? Used?

[dmbnpj]

nope, its at pep boys brand new
im probably wrong but im thinking wattage isnt the only thing to look at? i believe those systems say 1200 watts=about 1000 watt output, or something like that....and halide lights might need more power than just the 500 watt output they say they provide....correct me if im wrong, please!

Thanks again,
Jeff

[CB1]

You do not go by watt's, you go by amps. You need to add up all the amps that your equipment uses and how many amps the generator puts out. I think that size would be fine. I have a 10,000 watt generator hooked up to my fuse box. it will run both my tank's, with everything running. Besides my refridg, freezer, tv, some lights and heat.

[CarlC]

You should go by the max amps that are listed for each piece. When pumps start you could sometimes see twice the amp draw.

Carl

[jmproductions]

this is where i got my Gen from, i have the 2000w model. It works good and is easy to start.

http://stores.ebay.com/GUARDIAN-TOOLS_GENERATORS_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQftidZ2QQtZkm

[nyvp]

if your nervous check out the small one at home depot i think they have some small ones also. ( unless they are all here in florida)

[peecook]

good idea, its that time of year again....i guess i better start thinging about it too

[Paul79936]

The rated power of small generators is usually surge output. Continuous is lower.

Also, the stated run time on a generator is usually for a load 50% of the continuous rating. That is something to look at, since a generator that only runs for two hours on a tank of gas is not much use.

[dmbnpj]

jmproductions....how long does that generator run on a tank of gas?

[dmbnpj]

Never mind, I found it:

2000 WATT PEAK POWER
1500 WATT CONTINUOUS POWER
80cc / 4 STROKE EPA APPROVED ENGINE
SYNCHRONIZED SINGLE PHASE BRUSHLESS MOTOR
ONE 120 VOLT/15 AMP. A.C.OUTLET
ONE 12 VOLT/10 AMP. D.C. OUTLET
AC & DC AUTOMATIC SHUT OFF BREAKERS
SHOCK ABSORBING FEET
1.32 GALLON CAPACITY FUEL TANK
RUNS 9 HRS. PER TANK AT 50% LOAD
RECOIL PULL START
WEIGHT 55 lbs.
14"H x 17-1/4"L x 13-1/4"W
90 DAY MANUFACTURES WARRANTY

Does that mean if Im using the entire generator to power the tank it will only run for 4.5 hours?

[jmproductions]

it ran my frig for 5+ hours on a tank. it's going to depend on the running load of your tank. they sell "watt-0-meters" that will tell you your running watts.

[dmbnpj]

I am not an electrician. This is going to be hard. haha

[jmproductions]

another thing to look at is if you want to run it all you'll probably need the bigger 4000 watt one. that is a bunch of lights to run and don't forget how many watts the heater is.

[dmbnpj]

heater? thats only like a $20 item

[Boat]

Jeff,

That sounds like a good deal if all you want it for is your tank. I agree with Shoestring - you don't need to power your complete system. I have a decent size generator that I bought when we owned a house with a well pump that I wanted to power in an emergency. I use it for my tank now if necessary, but it's heavy, loud, and needs to be maintained. I suggest not buying one that's bigger than you really need.

[jmproductions]

what i'm saying is how many watts is your heater? if your lights go out b/c of snow your heater is going to need to run on your tank also along with your lights and pumps. which is probably more than that 2000 watt generator can run.

[vinstr]

I just yersterday got mine at Pep Boys- Awesome deal!!
3500 watt PowerPro Generator (3000 RATED watts) for $279.
I could not believe it as I was thinking I would need to spend at least $1000 (I was looking at the Hondas) to get a 3000 rated watt unit.
Here is the link:

http://www.saleshound.com/saleshound/listing_detail.asp?ListingID=-2096072869&OfferID=&PRetailerID=-99798

[jmproductions]

now that one at pep boys is a awesome deal!...anyone want to buy a 2000 watt one lol

[vermonter310]

Originally posted by Boat
I suggest not buying one that's bigger than you really need.

Not to say your wrong but, generally you want one that is larger than what you think your going to run. If the power is out you may want to run a light in the house or the fridge or whatever. A 6-7000 watt generator is not difficult to maintain and generally run longer on a tank of fuel.

Also you should look at installing a transfer switch.

JMO

VT

[vinstr]

Yeah, I know- I got it and have not even opened it...its just sitting in my garage waiting for a power failure

[jeffbrig]

I'm with vermonter - buy a generator twice the size of what you think you need. 1200 watts isn't much at all, especially when you consider the surge current to start a water pump or fire a mh ballast. You have to allow for the startup surge current when sizing a generator, but you can mitigate the effects somewhat by plugging in the large surge devices first, when extra capacity is available.

Your utility power can handle these surges with ease, but your generator can't. You can easily cause a voltage brownout, or in extreme cases, bog down the generator enough that the AC waveform drops below 60Hz. Either of these can potentially burn up whatever you have plugged in to them. I have a friend who burnt up a TV, alarm clock, microwave and other things because he tried to run his water heater on an underpowered/overloaded generator.

I wouldn't recommend anything below 3-4000 watts minimum. If you're going to get a generator for emergencies, you might a well pay a little bit more for spare capacity to give you some comfort instead of the bare essentials.

I ended up with a 7000w rated (8750 peak) generator and it was a life saver. We were without power after hurricane wilma, and I was able to run all my tanks (display and 2 QTs), fridge, tv, microwave, lights, etc., plus my neighbors' fridge/tv/lights. With a full tank of gas (7-8 gallons), it could go almost 20 hours. We ran it virtually nonstop for 6 days before power was restored.

Vinstr, the Honda branded generators are way overpriced. Mine is Honda-powered but packaged by coleman. It has the same 13hp GX390 engine as the Honda model costing $4k, but I only paid $1k for mine.

[dmbnpj]

I dont want to run anything in my house EXCEPT THE TANK if the power goes out. Screw the fridge (never have any food anyway-single guy here with 2 guy roommates). The generator will be for TANK ONLY. Will the 1200 watt from pep boys work?

Thanks,
Jeff

[jmproductions]

pep boys was 3500 watts but should work fine for you.

[dmbnpj]

theres one near where i live 1200 watts for $150

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by dmbnpj
Will the 1200 watt from pep boys work?


In a word: no.

Just look at the equipment you posted, I'll supply some estimated wattages:

running starting
200W 200W heater
100W 300W skimmer pump
150W 450W return pump
50W 150W 3 powerheads
600W 1200W 2 metal halide lights-250watt each
260W 500W 260 watt coralife 50/50 light(with 2 plugs)
25W 50W 2 fans
------------------------------------
1385W 2850W

A 1200 watt would not run your listed equpment, let alone handle turning them on. 2000+ would be your absolute minimum if you want to stagger plugging things in - MH then coralife, then return pump, etc. 3500W would give a nice healthy margin.

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by vinstr
Yeah, I know- I got it and have not even opened it...its just sitting in my garage waiting for a power failure

One more thing.....I would strongly recommend opening it up, putting some oil in it, and make sure it cranks ok. Do this BEFORE you need it. Murphy's law says the power will go out at 3am on the coldest night of the year. The last thing you want to be doing is standing outside holding a flashlight while trying to figure out where you add oil, how the choke works, etc.

[CB1]

WHAT!!!!!!!!! 3 guys and your not worred about the frig. Where do you keep the beer?????

[CB1]

And, oh yea. You guys are back to adding up watt's. You need to look at amp's not watt's!!!!!!!

[nyvp]

don't be cheap buy the 5500's or 6500 for $450-$550 its really worth it and it will run 12 hrs on a tank full. fill once in morning and another when you get home.

[dmbnpj]

CB1...If the power goes out, its going to be because of either ice or snow....I will leave the answer to your imagination.... :)

nyvp-Show me the money! haha, wish I could buy that!
Wonder if a 3500 will work and how much that is? Any if the ampage on that will be sufficient?

[CB1]

Good point!! LOL

[nyvp]

well if its freezing out side dont you want to be able to run a heater in the house as well to keep the tank and your feet warm

[bheron]

Just wanted to chime in that this is a great thread! Jeffbrig - thanks for the good info. I just got my tank up and am starting to worry about power outtages. This info is just what I need to get thinking. Me, personally, I just want to be able to run the minimum at first - simple flow, some light, and a heater. but, in the long run, it would be good to power everything i guess.

[dmbnpj]

My thinking is not running a heater in the house....just stocking up on a couple additional aquarium heaters that I can add to the sump if the power goes out and gets cold in the house. I only care about the tank, not myself! haha

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by CB1
And, oh yea. You guys are back to adding up watt's. You need to look at amp's not watt's!!!!!!!

That's because amps and watts are in direct proportion for any fixed voltage.

Watt's Law:
P = I * V

V is your standard 120V AC
I is current in Amps
P is power in Watts

Therefore, when you're talking about a generator, whether you say 1200 watts or 10 amps, you're really saying the same thing (assuming 120V AC).

Likewise, for any individual piece of equipment, you can describe its power consumption in terms amps or watts.

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by dmbnpj
I only care about the tank, not myself! haha

You say that now, but trust me, by the 3rd or 4th day of sitting in the dark with nothing to do, eating cold food out of a can, you'll wish you had bought the bigger generator. :D

Trust me, I've been there...

[nyvp]

when the lights went out here in the last hurricane I ran most of my house and two neighbors fridges. It was well worth having a 15k

[Sicklid]

You should go in with someone from Florida, and they can use it during Summer for hurricanes, and you could use it during Winters. :D

[dascharisma]

I would like to point out that being able to heat or cool your house along with running the fish tank might be a big deal. In my situation, my tank would overheat in the summer without the house AC, and in the winter my tank would freeze without the furnace. I keep my house at a steady temperature, and I couldn't run the tank if I didn't. When I buy a generator, it will have to be able to power my house AC or furnace. If it can't, then it will only be usefull for half a day. If it is only good for half a day, i might as well not have one at all.

Brad

[jeffbrig]

Brad,

Unfortunatley, most home HVAC systems require far more power than you can provide with a portable generator. A window AC unit is more feasible - in fact I keep one on the shelf in the garage in case I have such a need. I also have a chiller on my tank, which the generator has ample power to run.

[AZDesertRat]

Last Friday I purchased a Champion 3500 from Checker/Schucks/Kragen Auto. Pep Boys had their Power Pro 3500 on sale for $249 so I had Checker ad match plus 5% less so I got it for $237.
The difference is the Power Pro is 3500 surge watts 3000 continious rated while the Champion is 4450 surge watts and 3500 continous rated. I plugged it in to my 5th wheel trailer and it runs both the A/C and microwave at the same time.
It has both a 20 amp and 15 amp circuit as well as a 125/250 v 20 A circuit so will be plenty to run my reef systems when needed.
The gas tank holds 4 gallons and is supposed to run 10 to 12 hrs at half load. The muffler is the size of a car muffler and its rated at 68 dBa so is not near as loud as I feared it might be.
I'm happy!

[dmbnpj]

I have a new concern. If I find a generator that can power the tank but ONLY the tank, and it turns freezing inside my house....is there a chance of breakage of the tank glass? Warm water surrounded by freezing air doesnt seem like such a good idea?

[PsychoKnight]

Originally posted by dmbnpj
I have a new concern. If I find a generator that can power the tank but ONLY the tank, and it turns freezing inside my house....is there a chance of breakage of the tank glass? Warm water surrounded by freezing air doesnt seem like such a good idea?

That's a good one.

:lolspin:

[PaintGuru]

Stupid question....how does one connect everything to their generator (since it is probably outside). Do most hardwire it into the house or do you just run extension cords out to the generator? I'm in a condo with no garage so it would just be sitting in the back if I got one.

[vermonter310]

This thread reminds me of the skimmer threads...IMO at anything below 5000w your buying a seaclone! It will sorta work for a while, you'll be screwing with it often and in the long run you'll be upgrading!

VT

[GSchiemer]

If you don't have control over the electrical panel, then you'll have to use extension cords. If you do control the electrical panel, then you would install a transfer switch, which allows you to move select circuits over to the generator with a flip of a switch. They also make automatic transfer switches, but these are very expensive and pointless unless you also have an automatic start on your generator.

Greg

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by PaintGuru
Stupid question....how does one connect everything to their generator (since it is probably outside). Do most hardwire it into the house or do you just run extension cords out to the generator? I'm in a condo with no garage so it would just be sitting in the back if I got one.

In the past, I have used a pair of 12ga. 100' extension cords (1 on each phase) from the generator into the house. Then split to shorter cords running to various rooms/tank/appliances as needed. I plan to set up a hard wired system with a transfer switch before next hurricane season, simply because the cords become very annoying (trip hazard) after a few days.

If you choose to feed the generator power through your home's electrical wiring, you need to be ABSOLUTELY sure you know what you're doing, or pay a professional to set it up properly. Many ignorant people back-feed power into the power grid, which is very dangerous for the utility company's linesmen than are working to restore power to your area.

My 2¢

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by dmbnpj
theres one near where i live 1200 watts for $150 Higher-capacity generators and transfer switches are great suggestions, but are outside of many people's budgets. I hope no one's getting the idea that a small generator is not any better than no generator. It sounds like dmbnpj's purchase will have some financial constraints. Let's see if we can work within his budget, not someone else's.

A small generator can run a pump and some heaters. If it's horribly cold then a decision might have to be made: tank or space heater. And who sais you can't switch between the two?

Get the biggest you can afford, plug in the pump first and then the heater, don't worry about skimmers and lights and other stuff like filters. You'll be fine and if all you can afford is $150, then you only spent $150.

DON"T RUN IT IN THE GARAGE OR IN YOUR HOUSE! PEOPLE DIE EVERY YEAR FROM DOING THAT!

CARBON MONOXIDE + PEOPLE = DEAD PEOPLE.

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
DON"T RUN IT IN THE GARAGE OR IN YOUR HOUSE! PEOPLE DIE EVERY YEAR FROM DOING THAT!

CARBON MONOXIDE + PEOPLE = DEAD PEOPLE.

An excellent point worth repeating. In fact, with most hurricanes, the majority of the fatalaties are due to carbon monoxide and occur AFTER the storm.

[Boat]

I wired a chord that plugs into the clothes dryer's 230V outlet. But like Jeffbrig mentioned above you MUST flip your main feed into your house so you don't try to power the entire neighborhood. An electrician friend is almost a must here. I think we're get way beyond the initial intent of the original post though.

[p4ck37p1mp]

Plenty of gas on hand. I guess with a freeze you can still drive and get it if the stations can pump, unlike the lack of supply issues we get after storms. I think a smaller generator can probably run a smaller recirc pump or powerheads along with your heater without any issues. I put a MJ1200 with the venturi aimed at the surface when I wasn't running my generator, its really all I needed for oxygen. Keep in mind your heater may not be able to keep up with the temp loss if it gets very cold inside, might want to throw blankets over the tank to contain it.

[FunkieReefJunkie]

Besides carbon monoxide what other safety concerns should people have if they have a new generator and have no experience with them? Mine was bought this summer on sale and I've yet to have started it up because a neighbor told me a horror story of someone getting hurt badly.

[jimroth]

Originally posted by Boat
I wired a chord that plugs into the clothes dryer's 230V outlet. But like Jeffbrig mentioned above you MUST flip your main feed into your house so you don't try to power the entire neighborhood. An electrician friend is almost a must here. I think we're get way beyond the initial intent of the original post though.
Umm, question. Did you have to upgrade the breaker on the clothes dryer circuit to handle the increased amperage (say 25 amps, maybe put in a 30 amp breaker)? Have you tested the system under load?

[dmbnpj]

I have no clue how a generator even works. Do they normally have a regular plug outlet on it that you could plug a surge protector into and then run a bunch of equipment to that?

[AZDesertRat]

Yes.
Mine has two 120v 15 amp sockets. two 120v 20 amp sockets and a 125/250v 20 amp teist lock plug. You can run any or all at the same time.

[dmbnpj]

I see youve had yours for about a week or so. Have you tried it yet? How much will it power? Can you plug surge protectors into it and run most of your equipment?

[FunkieReefJunkie]

I seem to recall reading all these instructions over the summer (which I need to reread again) which had numerous "Warning, don't do this..." references. I think a review in safetey measures would be good for all concerned, especially for those who have bought theirs used. Big giant motor thingy can be kind of intimidating for the unexperienced. I freaked out the first time a hooked up my converter to the car too. :D

[AZDesertRat]

I have not tried it on the aquariums yet but it should handle everything at once no problem. It powers a 13.5 k air conditioner and 750w microwave in my travel trailer at the same time along with a couple of lights. We had monsoon storms and black out the last couple of summers so it will serve double duty, camping and storm stand by. I saw in todays paper Pep Boys still has their 3500w for $259.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by FunkieReefJunkie
Besides carbon monoxide what other safety concerns should people have if they have a new generator and have no experience with them? Mine was bought this summer on sale and I've yet to have started it up because a neighbor told me a horror story of someone getting hurt badly. Well, it's a gas-powered engine/generator with electricity so there's basic things like burning yourself on the exaust, electrocution, fire, etc. After carbon monoxide poisoning, I'd be most worried about electrocution, then fire. It's not like they're scary and horrible, you just have to be aware of the risks so you can avoid them.

A search for "home generator safety" turned up several sites.

[Boat]

jimroth,

The dryer has a 30 amp breaker. I used to live out in the country where I had a well and a few multiple day power outages. That's when I got the generator. I had to be careful what all I tried to run at one time.

[twkenny]

Backfeeding through the dryer outlet seems pretty common around me. Unfortunately, some people who don't know what they are doing do it, and it resulted in a lineman here from another state getting killed.
Back to the original question asked in the post. You don't need to run everything, and with an inexpensive generator I don't think I'd plug in my ballasts. Your tank will be fine without light for a few days anyway. I'd be concerned about heat and water circulation. Neither of these components would be that "sensitive" if the gen was not providing "clean" power. When we lost power for a few days it was pretty warm, so cooling the tank was my issue. Also, gas was in short supply so I utilized the 12 volt charger on my gen and kept a deep cycle battery charged with it, I'd run the pumps and a fan with a BIG inverter I have until the charge weakened, then, fire up the gen, run the fridge, TV, charge the batteries and power my neighbors freezers and such.
In a situation where gasoline is not in short supply, you have more options. Just remember if it gets extremely cold that heater in the tank may not keep up. Wherever it was mentioned above about freezing air on a warm tank is not an issue either. If it was tha cold you'd probably have more to worry about anyway.
Safety....a lot has been mentioned already. Generators are pretty safe if you use some common sense. Let them cool a bit before you fuel them, don't overload them, and treat electricity witht he respect it deserves.
They are a bit intimidating for people not used to dealing with that sort of thing. Just be familiar with your unit, and be sure not to run it indoors...not even a garage. Remember that if carbon monixide puts you to sleep, you'll probably never wake up.
To sum up, but what you can afford, and take full advantage of what you buy.

[tygger]

Are those generators from Pepboys reliable?

[jeffbrig]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6223220#post6223220 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tygger Are those generators from Pepboys reliable?

Great question!

Many times, people buy generators and they work great. Then, they store them indefinitely for a long period of time, with no preventative maintenance performed. Then, a year or two later the power goes out, and the generator won't crank. Gas residue can gum up the carbuerator, or the gas in the tank gets old and picks up moisture. Really any number of things.

Regardless of brand, you can do several things to enhance the reliability of your generator. Change the oil as specified in the maintenance schedule. Drain the gas tank or use fuel stabilizer if you intend to store it for long periods of time. Store the generator with the engine on the compression stroke (valves closed - this keeps moisture out of the chamber). Alternatively, cranking the motor and letting it run to full temperature every few months keeps everything properly lubricated and in good working order.

In my opinion, any decent engine properly maintained should last for many years. I prefer Honda-powered equipment, because I believe they make the best small engines. Reliable, quiet and fuel efficient, but they tend to be more expensive as a result.

[AZDesertRat]

The Pep Boys generators and most other Chinese generators available today are powered by a 6.5 HP OHV engine designed and licensed by Honda. It is an older proven design that they no longer manufacture so they passed the design on to a couple of Chinese manufacturers I understand. There are hundreds of posts on these gen sets at www.RV.net. About the only complaint I have seen is they are a little louder than a Honda or Yamaha, but still much quieter than Coleman and other commercial/industrial type generators. Mine is supposedly rate at 68 dBa and I think that is probably pretty close having run it in my fenced in back yard during break in.

[Jamesurq]

Wow - that "backfeed through the dryer's outlet" thing is pretty cool. I guess having a switch to shutoff the main supply and a loud appliance hooked up PRIOR to that switch (to alert you of the power coming back on) would be a good plan.

One thing to note - we ran our generator in the garage with the garage door open about a foot and the exhaust pointing out because there was an ice storm and the carborator kept freezing up. The back door open just a tiny crack to get the extension cords through. Thankfully I was well aware of the carbon monoxide potential so I plugged in a detector right by the door... - well, sufficed to say, it went off!

I ended up putting the generator outside and leaning a large rubbermaid tub over the side of it - the exhaust kept a nice warm bubble around the unit and kept the carb from freezing... Needless to say - that tub didn't become a sump :)

[jeffbrig]

Backfeeding through the dryer outlet is somewhat controversial from what I understand. The crux is whether or not turning off the master breakers on the "hot" lines fully disconnects you from backfeeding to the power grid. I have heard a scenario where a bad neutral/gnd connection in the box can result in power backfeeding to the grid, but I'm not an expert in the area. Although I will admit, several people (other engineers) I know used the dryer plug method after Hurricane Wilma.

Read this electrician's thoughts on the subject:
http://experts.about.com/q/1734/3727723.htm

Glad to hear you had a CO detector James, that could have ended badly. Thanks for sharing that story so others won't make that mistake!

[johnnstacy]

A couple of questions. I was considering a generator in my basement storage room where my electrical panel is located. I was considering piping the exhaust from the generator to the outside. Does this seem okay? I know it will be a little noisy but I think we will be okay there. Next question. Are there any brands that are quieter then others? I have some other equipment with Briggs and Stratton and they are all loud. Any recommendations there? Lastly, regarding the transfer switch. Any recommendations on a brand or supplier for this? The manual type would be fine.
Thanks in advance.

John

[jeffbrig]

John,

Noise is going to be a serious issue, even with the quietest of generators. Also, every generator I've seen has dire warnings against modifying the exhaust. Although I don't understand why, I can only assume that's because there are safety concerns with the sort of thing you are planning, or the exhaust back pressure negatively impacts the engine's output. I know would not be comfortable running and/or refueling a generator in the basement. Even if the fumes can be removed, there is a risk of fire if you spill gas in an enclosed space. And you will likely spill/splash a little bit each time you put gas in the generator.

A better solution would be to install a twist lock receptacle in a weatherproof box outside the house. Connect this box to a transfer switch by your current breaker box. All of this would be permanent. Then you would only need a short cord to go from the outside receptacle to the generator when you need to run it.

I'm currently searching for a good transfer switch to use as well. Most contain breakers for individual circuits, but that's not what I'm looking for. What I want to do is install a cutover switch on the main line that feeds into my existing breaker panel, selecting either utility power or generator power. Then I have would complete flexibility to switch various rooms/appliances on/off as needed to manage the load on the generator. I'd also like to have a current meter/gauge on each leg of the generator, to help with load balancing.

[AZDesertRat]

NEVER put a generator in an enclosed space like a basement. Carbon Monoxide is a deadly gas that is colorless, odorless and tasteless and is heavier than air so will settle in low lying areas like a basement. No matter how well you vent the exhaust it is a dangerous proposition. In fact I would put it as far away from the basement as possible to keep the exhaust gasses from travelling that direction.

[johnnstacy]

You bring up a good point about refueling. Didn't think about that. The panel is only 30 feet or so from the furnace and water heater and while the furnace probably won't be running I would prefer not to take the chance.

As for your idea with the twistlock, that sounds good. I could stub it within about 7 or 8 feet of the panel outside. What would you recommend for cable type? Not size as I know that will be dependent on the generator. I'm guessing rigid conduit from the stub out to the receptacle. Was also thinking about that direct burial u/g cable.
Guess I will do some searches on the auto transfer switch. I always like to take recommendations though before just pulling one out of the hat.

[poppin_fresh]

I bought a generator switching panel so I dont have to worry about back feeding. It has four 120V circuits and one 220V circuit. The gerator switch is tied into my main panel and wired to an all weather outlet on the outside of my house.

When the power goes out I simply roll the generator out the basement door and plug a short cord from the generator to the outlet. From there all I have to do is flip switches on the generator panel, shutting them off from the main service and switching them to to the generator. There is no risk of backfeeding the utility company or having the power come on and fry the generator.

The panel was very easy to wire up (if you are somewhat familiar with how electricity works), but the hardest part was deciding what circuits to use. I decided to run my well, bedroom outlets, living room outlets, refrigerator and furnace. I plan on runnin an extension cord into the living room to run my circ. pump and heater for the tank.

[johnnstacy]

Well, sounds like I bought a similar system today. I bought this:

http://bigdealsnetwork.com/powershop/product_info.php?products_id=229

and then also this:

http://www.parts-services.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ASC&Product_Code=01682&Category_Code=GENERAC

Hoping it makes a good combination. They said it would be 2-6 weeks on the generator but it was the lowest price on Google or Froogle and it was free shipping which I thought was awesome. Kind of expensive but I want to keep a lot of stuff running and 6500 watts continuous is going to do well. Someone else had mentioned the generator which made me start looking at it. I like the honda motor.

[jeffbrig]

I think you'll be happy with that one, John. That's very similar to the one I use, same Honda engine. Always cranked on the first pull. :D

I'll show you what WAS the best deal going, but unfortunately it's no longer available. This is the one I bought before hurricane season this year.
www.homedepot.com
Enter item 161133 into the search box.

Coleman 7000/8750 with the same honda engine - $999.00 :eek1: :eek2:

[johnnstacy]

I know when you guys have wrote about generators you spend more time on watts then amps but I am questioning this. My transfer switch has a 60a breaker to the main panel and a 30a breaker to the generator. So under normal conditions I can load up this transfer switch with about 45a (80% of 60a breaker)worth of circuits. In a power outage though, I will be limited to 30a due to the 30a breaker between the transfer switch and the generator. So, if my generator will run 6500w continous, what does that matter if the breaker is limited to 30a?
I have not completed the wiring yet but I guess I will just have to play with it once it's on generator power and find out exactly how many circuits I can safely use. The fish circuits alone without any lights is about 8 amps. Then my wife wants lights, microwave, heater, etc, etc. By my calculations a 30a breaker will give me just 24a to work with. That isn't going to power much.

[jeffbrig]

The 30A breaker for the generator is most likely a 240V breaker (2 phase), so that is capable of carrying a peak of ~7200 watts. Keep in mind that if you have 30A of 240V, that's 30A on each 120V leg, which means in total you have 60A of 120V to work with.

We commonly discuss watts instead of amps because there's less ambiguity due to the 120/240V differences.

[chucksta1]

Wow! It's hard to decide. I think that's from having so many variables. I think it's vital that when trying to decide what to get, you decide how much "emergency" it will have to deal with. When it's 20 below outside, it's going to to be a quicker curve to losing the tank's inhabitants than if winter where you are is over freezing. I've got an idea. when it's as cold as it usually gets where you are, turn off the heat. Now watch the inside temperature. After two hours, measure the drop. divide the drop in half, that's how quick the temp in your place will drop without power. That's the difference the heater(s) will have to pick up. There's a huge difference between a couple of hours and a couple of days. If you heat with electric, you won't be able to get any appreciable heat with a small generator. If you heat with natural gas , to run a furnace, you need enough to run the ignighter circuit, the blower motor and if you have one, the exhaust blower. With a small generator, you'll land up having to cycle the generator between the tank, the fridge, the furnace, etc.

If you don't think you'll lose power for more than a few hours, the cheapest way to keep circulation is to use an uninteruptable power supply (like for a computer) and run one powerhead from it. That'll keep at least some circulation going in the tank. Even if you have a generator, that'll help until you can get home and start your generator. Remamber, if no one,s home during the time you're at work, the power could go out at home, but not where you work, you'd never know 'till you got home.

Just a thought.

[johnnstacy]

Fortunately I work from home so about 95% of my time is spent right here in the house.

jeffbrig - Thanks for clearing that up. I need to go back and check the specs and make sure that the 30a is a 240V breaker. I have a question if you happen to be checking back. The 60a breaker is 2 pole. What does that mean. I see that they are two 60a breakers with common trip but what is the difference between a single pole and a two pole?

[jeffbrig]

Originally posted by johnnstacy

I have a question if you happen to be checking back.
The 60a breaker is 2 pole. What does that mean. I see that they are two 60a breakers with common trip but what is the difference between a single pole and a two pole?

2 pole simply means that it has 2 inputs. In practice, it is meant to carry power from both phases of 120V, so it's a 240V breaker. A single pole always carries just one 120V phase.

Singe pole:
1: 120V ___/ ____ (that's my half-assed ASCII switch drawing)

Double pole:
1: phase 1 of 120V ___/ ____
2: phase 2 of 120V ___/ ____

The double pole with "common trip" is effectively a 240V breaker, though it has to be installed across both phases in the electrical panel (more on that below).

Interestingly, you can also find "quad" breakers, they are slimline breakers that look something like this:
1: phase 1 of 120V ___/ ___
2: phase 1 of 120V ___/ ___
3: phase 2 of 120V ___/ ___
4: phase 2 of 120V ___/ ___

Note that 2&3 can be connected with a common trip to supply 240V to a circuit, while 1&4 each supply 120V independently. I have a number of these in my (crowded) electrical panel.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/54621panel.JPG

Note at the top the 2 big incoming wires. Each one is carrying one phase of 120V.

The main bars in the box juggle the phases around so that you can pick up 240V where you want.
http://home.comcast.net/~jbrigman/pics/panel_layout.jpg

You'll see that the upper left-most breaker is a 2-pole breaker for my stove. Looking at the diagram above, note that one side of the breaker (position 1 in the box) picks up from phase A, while the other (position 3) picks up from phase B. 120 from phase A and 120 from phase B gives us a combined 240V to power the stove.
http://home.comcast.net/~jbrigman/pics/double_breaker.jpg

Here's a quad breaker, which is effectively a mini 2-pole in the center, with slim single pole breakers on the outside. Everything in position 5 is on phase A, while position 7 is phase B. So, the topmost 20A is on phase A, the lower 20A is phase B. The center 30A are connected and supply 240V to the water heater.
http://home.comcast.net/~jbrigman/pics/quad_breaker.jpg

In fact, that quad breaker is the one that I installed to get extra circuits for my aquarium. It was a full size 2 pole before I replaced it with the quad.

Boy, I hope that made sense. It's just a matter of time till a REAL electrician steps in here and corrects my posts. I'm just a guy who happened to take a couple of EE classes in college. :D

[johnnstacy]

That totally makes sense. I had the same full size 2 pole and then replaced it with the quad. I had wondered if you get the same reliability from the slimline breakers as a full size.

So with a 2 pole 60a, then each line is good for 60a? For a total of 120A or about 80% of that? I thought the 2 pole 60a would only be good for a total of 60a.

[jeffbrig]

Yes, in the land of 120V circuits, you have 120A capacity. If you were to power a 240V circuit, you only have 60A of capacity. Note that in both cases the max theoretical wattage is the same.
120V * 120A == 240V * 60A

I would predict that the slimine breakers are just as reliable as the full size ones.