Question regarding skimmers and pumps

[Fmellish]

Another skimmer thread!

I don't understand something. When I look at skimmers on marinedepot, it appears to me that skimmers require a pump.

Now, is this different than the main circulation pump I use to return my water back up to the tank? Or is it the same pump?

I really need to understand this so I don't end up making an incorrect purchasing decision.

Also where in my sump should the skimmer go?

My sump is designed with a bulk head at the side opposite from where the overflow comes in. That bulkhead feeds a pipe which goes to an external pump that returns the water to the tank.

So If I place a skimmer in my sump in the chamber that the overflow falls into, it needs its own pump? Or should I use an external skimmer and place it inline before my main external return pump? How does it all fit together, and how many pumps do I need.

i am so confused

Thank you

[sparks56]

most skimmers come w/ their own pump/ marine depot will steer you in the right direction/ call them

[Fmellish]

So I need to purchase a return pump for the tank as well as a pump just for the skimmer?

[sparks56]

no. skimmer will sit in sump/ working independently

[fareforce]

Depending on the flow rate, you can put the line drawing water from your tank diretly into the skimmer. This way.. all of your water goes through the skimmer (not just some of it), lower electricity bills, and no extra heat from another pump.

Mine dumps into the first camber of my sump, goes through a bubble trap, then to the return pump (where heater is) which feeds up to my main tank and fuge (my fuge is gravity fed back into my main tank.

[Fmellish]

So assuming I don't have any equipment yet, just a big box for a sump, should my shopping cart look like option 1 or option 2, or option 3.

Option 1
-------------------------------
- (Skimmer) AquaC EV120 w/ JG Fitting w/ Mag-Drive 5 Pump


Option 2
--------------------------------
- (Skimmer) AquaC EV120 w/ JG Fitting w/ Mag-Drive 5 Pump
- (Return pump) Mag-Drive 18


Option 3
--------------------------------
- (Skimmer) AquaC EV120 w/ JG Fitting - NO PUMP
- (Return pump) Mag-Drive 18


------------------------------------------------------------
In english, do I need an independent skimmer pump AND an independent return pump, or are they the same pump ??

Does the pump actually attach to the skimmer? Or does the pump simply perform the work of returning the water to the tank and the skimmer doesn't need it's own pump? If the later is true, then why s the retailer bundling pumps with skimmers? I thought skimming and pumping were two different sub-systems. That's why when I saw pumps being bundled with skimmers I thought, oh wait a minute, maybe the skimmer also needs its own independent pump.

Thanks

[Fmellish]

Also, if i need 20 x flow to keep SPS corals, that would be 2400 gallons per hour. Can that flow come from my main loop that goes through my sump? Or would that cause my sump to flow too quickly for my built in fuge?

How many GPH should my sump run at if I want to keep plenty of flow but also keep a fuge in the middle of my sump?

Or are you supposed to have low flow through your main sump loop and then use powerheads and stuff for producing enough flow for corals?

I can't use power heads since I don't have a "back wall" it's a 4 sided tank in the middle of a room, so I can't be putting things on the glass.

[fareforce]

Option 2 unless you do what I said above.. If you dont do it the way above, then.. Yes the skimmer needs it's own pump.

Make sure the return on the skimmer goes through a bubble trap before going to your main return pump. This will help eliminate micro-bubbles in your display tank...

[Fmellish]

I hope to sit my skimmer in the first compartment of my sump, right where all of the water dumps in, and then at the end of the sump have a return pump. In this situation, is it still option 2?

[fareforce]

You could make a closed loop system, and possablly mount it in your canopy. Never heard of it being done, but it doesn't mean that it cant.

If you are planning on making your return your main source of flow, I would reccomend splitting it into at least 4 outlets so you wont have "dead spots".

[Fmellish]

I lived in Fairbanks for a few years when I was younger. Alaska is great. I miss it sometimes.

[fareforce]

Yes it would be option #2 if you do it that way, but I would still reccomend this way.. Your choice though..

Originally posted by fareforce
Depending on the flow rate, you can put the line drawing water from your tank diretly into the skimmer. This way.. all of your water goes through the skimmer (not just some of it), lower electricity bills, and no extra heat from another pump.

Mine dumps into the first camber of my sump, goes through a bubble trap, then to the return pump (where heater is) which feeds up to my main tank and fuge (my fuge is gravity fed back into my main tank.

[Fmellish]

Yeah, I'm considering splitting the return 4 ways once it gets to the surface and then flowing water from the center outwards in all 4 directions. The issue is that if I am pushing 2400 GPH through my sump, isn't that awfully turbulent on my refuge, (which I hoped would be the middle area of my sump)?

[fareforce]

Yeah I love it up here, but it is expensive to get reef stuff up here..

I am going out tonight to take pictures of the northern lights....

One nice thing about Alaska is you dont have to worry about chilling your tank..

[Fmellish]

I suppose I'm still a little confused you say line drawing water directly into the skimmer, but then you say yours "Mine", dumps into the first chamber of my sump?

So does your ovweflow go into your skimmer or into your sump?

Thanks

[Fmellish]

You just have to worry about thick black curtains in your bedroom during the summer so you can block out the light at night :)

[fareforce]

Can you add a 3rd tank for the fuge? That's what I ended up doing. It's nice because I can push as much water through the sump as I want, and still maintain a slow flow through the fuge. I do still have about 10# of LR in my sump though Just in case.. But I am only pushing 500-600gph through my sump.

To make up the rest I added 2 seio power heads.

[fareforce]

Give me a few minutes and I will try to draw a picture..

[Fmellish]

I would prefer to have my fuge in my sump. It's a big sump it's a 40 gallon. How do I achieve 2400 GPH flow, but keep a fuge in my sump?

And I'm still confused about the relationship between the skimmer and the sump. Are you saying I should tube my overflow directly into my skimmer and then flows out of my skimmer and into the sump?

[Fmellish]

Originally posted by fareforce
Give me a few minutes and I will try to draw a picture..

When you're dealing with people like myself, pictures are always good.
I can't visualize any of this stuff just by reading.

Thanks :)

[fareforce]

Is your tank drilled?

[Fmellish]

Yeah, go to my www link and you can see everything, just scroll down the page. I just got the tank last night and I know nothing about tanks.

Edit: (http://members.cox.net/jgunder/aquarium/)

[Fmellish]

I'm going to photograph my sump for you, BRB

[Fmellish]

ok, see my www now (http://members.cox.net/jgunder/aquarium/)

[fareforce]

Ok this is really ugly (I never said I was good at drawing) But this is how mine is...

http://www.alaskastudio.com/55/sump.jpg

Here is how mine works..

From my overflow the water goes directly into the intake side of the skimmer.

The skimmer does it's thing and spits out the water into the left side of my sump. It them goes through a bubble trap entering kinda fuge #1.

Then through another bubble trap to the return area (where my heater is).

From here my return pump pushes water to a "T". One end goes directly to a ball valve and back to chamber #1 in my sump. This allows me to adjust my flow going back to the tank without putting extra strain on my return pump.

The other side of the "T" goes up to another "T". One side goes directly to a ball valve and into my actual fuge which is gravity fed back into my main tank.

The other side goes into my main tank..


One thing I did leave out was that the first "T" (the one that goes back to chamber#1 in my sump actually has another "T" on it with a straight tube and a ball vavle at the end. This allows me to do easy water changes.

[fareforce]

hmm.. very interesting looking sump.. Give me a min to play with this..

[Fmellish]

So my skimmer doesn't need a pump if the overflow goes directly into it. Then I would just use a pump at the end of my sump to return the water. I got it.

My problem then is that my sump is plumbed to hook into my overflow, so I won't be able to have the overflow go into my skimmer first. BUT I can put my skimmer in the very first chamber, (if there's enough room). If I do that, put the skimmer in the first chamber, does the skimmer then need its own separate pump?

Thanks for the diagram BTW.

How did you know to do all of that?

THanks

[Fmellish]

I bought it from a guy who wanted to get rid of it, so the sump design may totally suck.

If the sump design sucks, just let me know. I have no issues with replacing it.

[fareforce]

My design was A LOT of trial and error..

The sump you have will work, it is just a matter of making it work.

That sump was designed to have the skimmer in the middle, and no fuge. You need to be able to access the top of the skimmer to empty it.

You could tank you intake line, put a "T" in it with a ball valve on each side, set your skimmer next to the sump. Run one line (from the ball vavle) to the skimmer, and then from the skimmer to chamber #1 (you would have to drill a hole on the top).

Then take line #2 (from the other ball valve) straight into chamber #1.

This will allow you to control the flow into both the skimmer and the sump. I would never reccommend this if you had an overflow though.

As for the hole that goes into the return chamber.. PLUG IT!! Get a small piece of acrylic and glue it over the hole. Then take two more pieces of acrylic and make a bubble trap... When looking at a bubble trap from the side it should look like ||| but with the middle one raised up about 1" to 1 1/2".

The other thing I would do, is on the intake section going to the middle section, glue a piece of acrylic all the way down to the bottom and make sure it is sealed. Then cut a slot or a few hole up higher.

This way if you want to add sand in the midddle you can..

[fareforce]

Forgot to answer this:

If you intake line doesn't go directly into your skimmer, them yes you will need a mag5 for the skimmer you are looking at.

[fareforce]

That one hole on the side you dont have to plug, If you dont you will have to use an external return pump. I prefer the in sump ones as they tend to run quieter.

[Fmellish]

Thank you very much for the fixes. Is it worth keeping this sump and making these mods? Or should I just get a new sump that's better designed?

And if I plug the hole at the left end, then do I just plop my return pump in the last chamber on the left?

Also, where do I buy acryllic and how do I cut it and glue it?

Thanks a bunch for your help.

[fareforce]

Thank you very much for the fixes. Is it worth keeping this sump and making these mods? Or should I just get a new sump that's better designed?
In my opinion. Yes and no. It is worth keeping, because I hate throwing stuff away, and it will be WAY cheaper to mod it, then to buy a new one. My no is that is lookd to be a fairly small sump. On my 55gal I am running a 10 gal sump, and a 10 gal fuge. I feel it is to small, so I am in the process of changing out the 10gal sump for a 37gal sump.


And if I plug the hole at the left end, then do I just plop my return pump in the last chamber on the left?
Yes. Just make sure it will fit first. You may have to leave it unplugged and use an external return pump. I am alway worried external ones will leak, and I have found them to generate more noise.


Also, where do I buy acryllic and how do I cut it and glue it?
You will need to look at the yellow pages under plastics. When you go buy it you will need a bottle of #3 or #4 weld to glue it. If you take them your sump they might cut and glue the pieces in place for you. The place I use will do it for just a few $$.

[Fmellish]

Fantastic.

i'm going to print out this thread so I don't lose it.

Now i need to sleep.

Thanks again

[fareforce]

Ohh yeah.. You will most likely want 1/4" Acrilite (Acrilite is the brand of acrylic)

[Fmellish]

fareforce, please let me know if I drew the design correctly

http://members.cox.net/jgunder/aquarium/

Thanks
Josh

[fareforce]

This is what will happen if you do it the way you planned out. The water will not go through the skimmer at all due to back pressure.

Here are a few additional options:

Option #1 (This is probablly your best best)
http://www.alaskastudio.com/55/option1.jpg

Option #2 (might not work with that skimmer due to flow rate, but if you upgraded skimmers this would be the ideal way)
http://www.alaskastudio.com/55/option2.jpg

And last, but not least...
Option #3 (This will only fix the back flow issue)
http://www.alaskastudio.com/55/option3.jpg

[Fmellish]

You're awesome. Option #2 looks good to me. This is all hypothetical of course since I can't fit anything bigger than my current sump in my stand. And I don't have any room for plumbing.

Maybe I could sacrifice a cabinet near the tank to put this stuff in.

Thank you so Much!

I updated my website.

Cheers
Josh

[fareforce]

If you take the measurements of the inside of your stand, I will design out a new sump for you. I need to know inside length, width, height, and any irregulaities or cross bars.

[Fmellish]

Thank you for the offer. I'm actually contemplating a new bigger stand. I need more room to do the type of plumbing that is required to do it correctly. I'm contemplating some of the designs on www.melevsreef.com.

Thank you for all your help.

Josh

[fareforce]

No prob.. Let me know if you need any help!

[mope54]

Why do option 1 and 2 have a pipe running from the return pump to the front of the sump again? Is this to control the flow rate into the main pump? And if so, what are the disadvantages of not doing it like that (maximizing the flow back into the main tank)?

I am thinking of something like that, but I am thinking that instead of having it T-off from the return pump to the start of the sump, I will T it to the fuge and return from the fuge to the front of the sump.

[fareforce]

This will allow you to control the flow rate back into the main taml incase your pump isn't matching the overflow, or is to strong. If you were to just put a valve on the return line, you will shorten the life on your return pump.. You want to try to keep it running at full speed..

[mope54]

Thanks for the reply. Is the far left ball valve to shut-off the water when doing maintenance on the skimmer?

Otherwise, using it to control the flow seems like increasing the possibility of overflowing the main tank...just a bit off adds up over time.

Those are just curiosities to me. But the real fear I have is how to keep things out of the skimmer. What if a snail or something falls down the overflow, how do we keep a catastrophe from happening?

[fareforce]

It is just for maintenance on option #2, and not really needed. On option #1 and #2 it is a way to adjust the pressure going through the skimmer. All aditional pressure follows the other side of the "T" and dumps into chamber #1.

And to keep the snail thing from happening, install a small foam block on the outlet of the overflow. Just make sure you keep it clean.

I am all about making a tank easy to work on. On that return line you were questioning earlier, I actually have one additional "T" with a pipe coming straight out with a ball valve so I can do water changes.

[mope54]

me too, I'm going to keep working on my layout. My first (current) tank was used and plumbed already. I don't really like how it works and now that I have a 29 gallon that I'm going to set up as a display fuge, I am going to really do some nice plumbing layouts.

[brandon0350]

you need to have a pump for the skimmer and one for the return. the return pump takes water from the sump and returns it to the tank. the skimmer pump creates micro bubbles in the skimmer. you can either have a t off your overflow pipe that feeds the skimmer throught a ball valve an have a recirculating pump or you can hav a skimmer pump that draws water from the sump and puts it into the skimmer. ive never heard of pump that can feed a skimmer and also be the return pump? but maybe im way off.

[fareforce]

You don't need a seperate pump for the skimmer depending on the flow rate of your overflow, and the skimmer.

He was talking about using a overflow that would have more GPH then the skimmer could handle. Therefore you "T" off the excess. He was also talking about using an AquaC EV skimmer which doesn't use an air pump or venturi.

[brandon0350]

i thought the aqua c needed a high bressur bump to create the bubbles but i guess i was wrong sorry

[brandon0350]

pressure pump *

[mope54]

The return pump isn't actually feeding both the return and the skimmer.

With the way we are setting ours up, the overflow feeds the skimmer. The downpipe doesn't go directly to the sump, instead it ties directly to the input of the skimmer. In order to get your skim bubbles, you'd need to have a different type of skimmer than a venturi kind (although I'm actually going to try and use my sedra 5K as a recirculating pump on the body of my downdraft skimmer).

EDIT: oh, I'm late to respond. I used to know a site that explained flow rate capacities of pipe diameters. Does anyone have something like that handy?

[fareforce]

It does need decent pressure, but he was looking at pushing something like 1200gph through it, and it was only rated at 600gph. As long as you have a 2" drain pipe that goes into a 1" it will create the pressure needed.

It works with my AquaC

[mope54]

HELP!

lol, ok, I tried my idea and it didn't work (read: barely avoided a flood)

Here's what I have:
90 gallon tank with 1 internal 1.5" durso standpipe.
Return pump: GRI 510 (rated at approx 600gph)

Starting from the top (facing the tank):
(counting the length of the durso) I have 30" of 1.5" pipe DOWN.
Reducing 90deg elbow to 1" (directs flow to the left of the stand)
14" horizontal pipe to 90deg elbow (directs flow to the rear of the stand)
6" horizontal pipe to 90deg elbow (directs flow UP)
20" UP to top of Predator downdraft skimmer (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=710091 I tried this with the short version and the added extension).
90deg elbow and 6" horizontal pipe (directs flow to the skimmer's input)

The water then falls DOWN approx 36" and then flows out the gate UP 14"
90 elbow (directs flow back into the stand)
horizontal 12"
90deg elbow (directs flow to the right toward the sump)
horizontal 18"
90deg elbow (or T, tried both) to direct flow DOWN 6" into the sump.


The main problem is that the overflow fills up and the tank almost floods unless I run and shut the return pump off. The skimmer calls for a pump of ~1000gph. Before I added the skimmer into the setup, the overflow was able to handel the GRI perfectly.

I am thinking of putting a valve on the return line like you have in option 2 (I have 3 on order that haven't arrived yet), but that concerns me that I will reduce flow down the overflow and then only have something like 300ghp into my skimmer. I was already cutting it short by having no more than 600 gph (if I understand correctly that the return pump's rating tells me anything about what's flowing down the overflow accurately--maybe it doesn't) flowing to the skimmer.

I could T-off like option 1, but I'd rather not reduce flow to my skimmer. It just seems like the problem isn't my skimmer (since it calls for such a large pump), but rather all the tubing and bends it took to get from the overflow to the skimmer creating too much back pressure.

If I have to make a choice between splitting seperate flow lines (say, splitting the return flow between the tank and the skimmer, or splitting the overflow between the skimmer and the sump), is it better (in terms of efficiency of skimmate, flow, and/or electricity) to do one over the other?

Maybe I should change all my skimmer plumbing to 1.5"
Maybe I should have the return pump go directly to skimmer, then skimmer directly to tank return
Maybe I should just get a second pump for the skimmer :D

Thanks for all your help and I hope this post wasn't too rambling...I'm afraid to reread...

[fareforce]

Well, If your skimmers input is 1" then you will need to "T" off the input, and put the remaining portion direlty into your sump.

Your skimmer may be rated for 1000gph with a 1" input, but that is with the pressure of a pump with 0 head loss. With 1" pipe you should be able to push a minimum of 750-800gal through your skimmer and the rest will go to your sump. I would also reccomend using a gate valve on the portion going directly into your sump. this way you can fine tune it a little easier than with a ball valve.

Hope this helps!

[mope54]

ah, I tihnk I got it. There's just no way around it--if I have a 1.5" downpipe, then no matter what I will get too much backflow if the rest of the system is 1"?

So then I need to either valve off the excess...or perhaps change my durso to a 1" standpipe (the only thing 1.5" is the bulkhead at that point)? To complicate things, I used 1.5" thinwall so the flow is probably even greater than regular schedule 40!

Will the flow out of my skimmer be the same as the input? I'd like to output it to the fuge, but that can only handle like 300gph.

Thank you so much for reading through all of that and helping me with this design.

[fareforce]

Yes, you shouldn't loose gph going through your skimmer.

Also, I would just "T" off the excess. If you try to fit a 1" stand pipe where a 1 1/2" is.. You are just asking for problems, and leaks. You could leave that stand pipe in there, and go to your local hardware store and get a 1 1/2" to 1" schedule 40 reducer. Mount that to the stand pipe, and then either use schedule 40 or thin thinwall 1" pipe for the first half, and then use either 1 1/2" or 1" for the return. i would reccomend using schedle 40 pipe.