Can these corals coexist in a 10g?

[timschmidt]

I am starting a nano reef soon and would like a little expert opinion on my coral selection. I plan on using this light: 20" 1x96W Coralife Aqualight CF hood w/ Quad 50/50 in a 20"x10"x12" tank with a similiar sized sump. Here goes the list:

Sun Coral ( I plan on placing under a ledge to shield a bit of the light)
Bubble Coral
Open Brain
Striped Mushroom
Green Zooanthids
Feather Duster

And the other occupants I plan to add:

Maxima Clam
Sexy Shrimp

I would really love to add an Anemone that will stay small to maybe host a Clown Fish but if it is too small of a tank I will live without it.

Any input would be greatly appriciated. Also a suggested clean up crew would be nice, not sure how many snails to add and what not.

[MCsaxmaster]

You may want to ask in the new to the hobby forum as I think this is most appropriate for that forum.

A couple quick suggestions though:

Sun coral: doesn't need to be shaded from the light. Shaded from light usually means shaded from water flow in most peoples' tanks IME. Just feed it well, keep water quality high and give it good flow.

Bubble coral: fine but may sting things in such a small tank.

Open brain: should be fine.

Striped mushroom: should be fine, but may not work with stony corals--pick on or the other for best results.

Green zoanthids: should be fine. Could have issues with stonies...maybe.

Feather duster: not a coral, but ill-advised IME. Hard to produce enough bacterioplankton for a large one.

Maxima clam: not a coral, but very ill-advised IME. I don't think this light is bright enough to keep one healthy/alive without significant feeding which will foul a small tank.

Sexy shrimp: not a coral, but should be fine.

Anemone: not a coral, but may or may not work IME depending on species (E. quadricolor for best chances) and may sting everything else in the tank.

Chris

[MiddletonMark]

Chris as always gives great advice.

I too would avoid a clam, and an anemone at very least. With a small water volume + more delicate creatures ... I'd wait a few years until you can keep conditions VERY stable for them. [you're in this hobby for the long term ... and given these creatures can live a decade or more ... patience is a wise choice]
Just simple things like salinity [or Calcium, Alk, pH, ...] can vary pretty quickly in a smaller tank, and neither of these creatures are amenable to daily changes constantly.
To add - the light may be able to keep them, but probably is not ideal.
To add even more - an anemone that can wander, and easily sting + kill most other corals, probably isn't a good idea in a small space. When parameters fluctuate - mine tended to go for walkabout [which could be a foot or a few].

The others - I guess I just would suggest being sure to make sure for growth - and for the bubble - for 4-6" sweepers which may appear. Bubble corals can be quite aggressive, tend to win most fights - and for a month or so a year, mine tends to develop longer sweepers [3-4"]. When I mixed mushrooms, softies, and the bubble - it's sweepers were 6" or more at times.
It can be done, but probably isn't wise and may be a big problem.

Just my take, but I'd decide what you really like most - and then find things that do well with that. In my opinion, you've got a very wide range of corals [except for the two stonies, you've got most categories represented] and generally I've had best luck putting similar types and those with similar demands together.

Best of luck, keep asking questions.
And personally, I generally suggest getting a reference book for coral as your first coral purchase. Given the price of coral - if it saves just one mistake purchase, it just paid itself off. I don't know a reefer who has never made a mistake ... so I'd suggest it. [not to say you couldn't be the first]
For now, the book I've found most useful is Eric's
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890087483/reeflink" target="_blank"><b>Aquarium Corals</b></a><br>Selection, Husbandry, and Natural History<br><i>by Eric Borneman</i><br><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890087483/reeflink" target="_blank"><img src="http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1890087483.01.TZZZZZZZ.jpg"></a>

[timschmidt]

Thanks for the book suggestion, I'll be ordering it now. And yeah I figured it would be tough to keep the anemone, but I'm suprised the bubble is that aggressive...heh guess looks are deceiving. Any suggestions as to tank mates for the Sun Coral (that is the one I really want). I'm still not clear on the different types of coral but I guess that book will explain it better. Thanks for the info! I will be settting up the tank about March (moving into the new house then), but I may cure my own live rock until then. Thanks again.

Tim

[aaron23]

only coral that needs to be shaded are carnations and i think chilli corals well i guess thats a carnation too ;o

[aaron23]

THAT BOOK MARK HAS POSTED UP ABOVE TIMS POST IS GODLY.... MUST BUY ERICS BOOOOK :P

[MCsaxmaster]

Tim,

I urge you not to put stock in the terms that often get tossed around when discussing different "types" of corals; namely don't think that categories such as mushroom polyp, zoanthid, soft coral or especially the utterly useless lps and sps are going to tell you how a coral should be kept. There's a lot more to keeping corals than knowing what these terms prescribe.

The best way to have a successful assemblage of corals IME is to get familiar with what reefs in nature look like and function like. The best way I know to do this (besides visiting a reef, which is ideal) is to look at a lot of reef photos. Get an idea of the general look that you want and observe which species grow to together and which don't. From there decide what is likely to work in your tank.

Chris

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by timschmidt
I will be settting up the tank about March (moving into the new house then), but I may cure my own live rock until then.
You are full of wise ideas :thumbsup:

Planning ahead ... always the easiest road to success.
Given this hobby isn't always easy - you're likely saving yourself some hurdles in the road by getting it worked out ahead of time.

I would consider curing the rock ahead of time, as you mention.. While it's a shame you can't get any sandbed going [if you're going with one ... I run my main tank barebottom, though my propagation tub has a DSB] ... I'd think curing the rock, letting the life that exists start to thrive without predation - probably a good thing.

I'd take a look at the `Maturity Issues' thread stickied ... about halfway down the first page [among others] Eric has a great description of the successions and changes in newer tanks. I think it would be of interest, and may be useful guidance on how you want to plan things ... figuring you're laying out a great plan already.

Keep asking questions, planning ahead. It puts a smile on my face to see you working so far ahead :D

[timschmidt]

Well thank you very much. I think I will work my tank around the sun coral, so I'm going to be looking for reef shots of them...not too many. Melev's webpage keeps coming up first :) Thank you so much for all the input. I'll be drilling my tanks sometime soon.

[EricHugo]

Good advice from the group, tim - and while carnation corals should not be kept in tanks because they do not survive well, they also do not need to be shaded from light - a technicality but they grow out in the open like any other coral despite lacking zooxanthellae.

[timschmidt]

After much internal debate I think I have my final list of occupant, minus clean up crew (mainly because I'm not sure how many of what I should include and recommendations?).

Orange Sun coral (left middle side about 2" off of sand)
Flower port coral (slightly right and above orange sun coral, bout 3-4" away)
Open Brain coral (red hopefully, in front middle of tank near bottom)
Frogspawn Coral (I like dang it so I'm gonna put it in :) Just far right by itself)
Flowerpot Coral (bout 5-6" left of frogspawn near middle or top of tank)

Sexy Shrimp
Clown Fish (small one, True Percula i think...)

Any ideas on clean up crew ( 10 Gallon long tank with 10g sump that has a fuge and skimmer)?

Tim

[MCsaxmaster]

A couple of flowerpot corals (Goniopora and/or Alveopora) along with an open brain (Trachyphyllia) and frogspawn (Euphyllia (para)divisa) are a likely mix based on their needs and the environments they're found in, but unfortunately flowerpot corals (Goniopora/Alveopora) are very, very demanding corals. Until recently I would have probably said darn near impossible, but some folks seem to be making headway...

Anyway, you don't want these corals, despite their beauty and potential appropriateness in this style habitat-tank. Otherwise, sounds good.

Chris

[EricHugo]

I'm going to go ahead and move this post at this point to the beginner's forum. I also do not think this is a good list of species, no reasy to keep, not appropriate for a ten gallon tank.

[timschmidt]

Ok guess I'll drop the flowerpot corals. I confess being confused though. The advice of finding corals that coexist in nature seemed to be a wonderful tip. But when I went with that, now I'm told that they don't do well in a 10g tank... From what I saw at the LFS these corals were not large by any means and now without the flower pot corals I would only have 3 corals in a 20" wide tank... what gives?

[sihaya]

The truth is... very few corals will do too well in a 10g tank. The ones that will, like Zoanthids, Xenia and star polys, will quickly outgrow the tank. (like, in maybe only 8 months) You could get a smaller faviid of some type and maybe a juvenial pagoda cup... but again, in 10g you'd have to be very diligent about water changes and keeping up the water quality. It's just hard to balance a 10g reef tank. Certainly it can be done, but it's not easy. Why don't you check out the nano-reefing forum?

But, may I ask, is there some reason you want a reef tank this small? Is it lack of space? funding? Because if you're a beginner I'd suggest a larger tank.

That being said, my first reef tank was a 5g aquarium with a 2.5g refugium. I only had it for 6 months though before getting a bigger tank. It was just too much trouble.... too hard to keep up the water quality and balance.

[Randall_James]

I did a 25 gallon softie tank and it was a blast. It was easy to take care of, the corals were extremely hardy, and softies provide some "motion" in the tank that observers just eat up.

My favorite in that tank was my "Colt". It is the "Oak" tree of the tank and is not so colorful but so delicate and intricate that it is amazing what a soft blob can expand to.

It also gave me my first trip into coral propagation. I still think that is my favorite tank when it comes to just plain fun.

[timschmidt]

I choose 10 gallon because I have two old 10 gallons and I like the size really. I have seen many of the nano tanks with live coral and they are doing great, just not one with the sun coral. I plan on using the two together to increase water volume, but honestly I like the size of the 10g. Money is not a huge problem otherwise I wouldn't be entertaining the Idea of 70watt MH with 03 actinics and a skimmer rated for 65 gallons. I wouldn't mind a big tank, but I must get the feel of the saltwater before I commit to it. I have a 40 gallon octagon but I don't like the way everything is distorted looking into it, not too mention I hate getting my entire arm wet reaching to the bottom of that tank :( If I like the 10g I have no problem getting a larger tank. Thanks for the input!

[bertoni]

Zoanthids would be a fine coral for this size tank. Xenia would be okay as well, IMO, although you'd have to remove some from time to time. Many mushroom corals, especially Actinodiscus, would be a good way to start, also.

I personally don't think any of the choices mentioned are particularly easy, but after you get some experience, the open brain (Trachyphyllia) and perhaps some sun coral (Tubastrea) might work in a 10g, if you're careful with feeding.

[snorkelmark]

If you go with this list, you are doomed to failure:

Orange Sun coral (left middle side about 2" off of sand)
Flower port coral (slightly right and above orange sun coral, bout 3-4" away)
Open Brain coral (red hopefully, in front middle of tank near bottom)
Frogspawn Coral (I like dang it so I'm gonna put it in Just far right by itself)
Flowerpot Coral (bout 5-6" left of frogspawn near middle or top of tank)

Sexy Shrimp
Clown Fish (small one, True Percula i think...)

That's wayyyyyy to much bio-load for a little 10 gallon tank. It will fail, you'll have most everything die, and you'll quit or go back to freshwater in a few months.

A 10g tank is small - so think small.

The flowerpots are very very delicate and difficult even for experienced hobbysist - don't go near them.

Frogspawn will try and kill everything else in the tank. Sun Corals can be nasty, too.

The brain needs to be fed, and with only 10 gallons you don't have nearly enough water to tolerate feedings and keep organics down (unless you run a 55 gallon sump!!).

For a 10, try a baseball size rock of zoos and another small rock with a toadstool leather coral. Put a nice showy live rock or 2 in there with cool purple corraline, too. Light it with 45-65 watt PC fixture. Use a Remora HOT skimmer for skimming and water movement. Use half a 20 lb bag of CaribSea Araganite (not the live stuff). Get 2 small red leg hermits, 2 Astra snails, and a Nassaris snail or two to stir the sand. A small clown may also be OK will will really tax the limits of this size tank.

If you go this route you'll have a nice little nano that is sustainable long-term.

The first step would be the sand and some well cured LR. Don't go fresh or partially - cured - get some that's been at your LFS for a month or more. Put the sand in/cover with plastic, and add seawater. Let sand settle for a day or so - then go get LR fro LFS and put it in. In a week or two you'll have enough bacteria to add the hermits and snails. Go back to LFS the next week and have them test - if water still good add the zoos (get small polyp zoos not the dime size. Again you don't want to feed or add supplements - not enough water volume). Go back the next week and test again and if OK get the small toadstool leather. In a month to 5 weeks you'll have a nice nano that will work for many years, providing you use a good skimmer like AquaC Remora HOT, do 2 gallon changes each week, and don't add anything else.

[sihaya]

Yeah, I agree with snorkel... that list is absurd for a 10g or even a 20g probably. But the softies could be fun. (You'd just have to "trim" them back every once in awhile)

[Me No Nemo]

A nice, colorful addition for a 10 gallon is ricordia. Lots of color and easier than many that you listed above. I have a 10 gallon with a sun coral, some orange clove polyps, several different color zoanthids, a frilly mushroom and blue, green, orange, pink and purple ricordia. Everything has done very well for over a year, it's very colorful and easy to maintain. GL, Marcye

[timschmidt]

Thank you for the suggestions. I will adjust my list to let me gain experience before adding in the coral I really want (and then I'll get a larger tank...). So i will add some zoos and a toadstool leather to begin with. Seems odd only having two types of corals.....but whatever will get my feet wet. I noticed that most people only test ph, alkalinity, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and the specific gravity. Should I test calcium levels? I seem to like the LPS corals most of all and they all claim to need calcium supplements.

[bertoni]

I would test alkalinity and Ca fairly regularly. If you're using a two-part, then just testing alkalinity most of the time should be fine. You'll need to supplement calcium and alkalinity together, unless the tank has very little calcium consumption. In that case, water changes might be all that's needed.

[Randall_James]

Yea! for water changes :D

[jvp7800]

Make sure you have enough light whatever you do

[timschmidt]

I'm thinking this might be enough light. Let me know if you think otherwise.

http://www.hellolights.com/201xcoaqpcho.html

If not please suggest a replacement :) Tank is 20" wide 10" deep and 12" tall.

[snorkelmark]

That's nine watts per gallon. And a 10 gallon does not have many square inches over which the 96 watts will be spread. And 10 gallons is not a lot of water to dissipate heat. Unless you set it up in a basement where ambient temp is 60 degrees, you would have a hard time keeping that small tank cool. I personally think that's too much light in too small area with too little water.

I really think your trying to force a square peg in a round hole. Many beginners think starting small is better, but you would be better served going with a drilled 29 gallon tank ($60 new/maybe $10 used if you shop locally) stand another $60 or $10 used shopped locally. 130 watt CoarLife fixture $100 on eBay, 25 gallon refugium on eBay $89. $100 Mag Drive 9 return pump, $190 AquaC Remora HOT skimmer. Add $20 for Carib Sea arag sand and $100 for some well cured live rock and in two weeks add some zoos and a few hermits an snails and you'll have a tank that will be well sustained for years. You'll end us spending that much or more on the 10 gallon and never get a good set-up that stays stable. The 29 gallon is 3x the water capacity plus you'll use a 25 gallon sump so you'll have 6x the water. This sort of 29 gallon set-up will be much easier to set up maintain and sustain than the 10 gallon. A much better "beginner" set-up. The bigger tanks are actually easier when it comes to marine tanks. And it's still "Nano" size even at 29 gallons !!!

[osean3090]

My stocklist for 20h now running about a year and a half. 0 nitrates, only lost a few zoo's due to some bugs and a couple fish at the start. Running around 35# of LR, two maxi 900's and an ac110 with a sponge I rinse once a week, a bag of chemipure and some extra lr.

1 skunk cleaner shrimp
1 bicolor psuedochromis
2 pink skunk clowns
1 randalls goby with a pistol shrimp
Frogspawn
3 types of candy canes
Fox coral
Lobo brain
Red open brain
Plate coral
Kenya tree
Lots of zoo colonies
Ricordia yuma
Ricordia florida
Sun polyps
Green striped mushrooms
Frilly mushrooms
Pagoda cup
Blue xenia
Green feather duster
Unidentified leather
Star polyps

This was my first tank and its still doing great.

[osean3090]

Oh yea and my lighting is one of those aquatraders 130w fixtures that everyone hates.

[timschmidt]

Originally posted by snorkelmark
That's nine watts per gallon. And a 10 gallon does not have many square inches over which the 96 watts will be spread. And 10 gallons is not a lot of water to dissipate heat. Unless you set it up in a basement where ambient temp is 60 degrees, you would have a hard time keeping that small tank cool. I personally think that's too much light in too small area with too little water.

I will be using a 10 Gallon sump as well so i will have 20 gallons water volume and I don't expect heat to be an issue, if it is I have a lot of extra fans from my work (computer sized fans 120mm I believe). An auto topoff will compensate for evaporation. I am not choosing a small size because of money. I like the size of the tank I have. I'm not even sure that the clown I was thinking will go in this tank so that eliminates that bioload from the water. I think I'm going to get that fisson nano skimmer. It moves 84 gallons of water an hour. Is a 4x turn over ok for a tank with no fish in it? I heard that over skimming a tank with filter feeders is not such a good idea.

[snorkelmark]

4x won't get it - that would only be 40gph which is like no movement no current at all. Think Ocean - big surf big waves current riptides, man. You need to move 100gph at minimum - I'd be happy with 200gph in such a small tank.

You'll be surprised about heat - the 130watt on my 29 gallon puts out a tremendous amount of heat. In a room that's about 70 degrees it was almost too much heat. If the temp raised up above 75 (like summer) then there was no way to keep temp below about 82. In such a small tank you'll always have these problems that add up and you'll constantly be looking for ways to compensate or fix this or why did this happen - you'll spend more time maintaining a 10 gallon than you would a 55 gallon!

[brandonberry]

With a tank that size, I wouldn't even bother testing calcium, alkalinity, or anything else other than salinity once it gets going. IME water changes are good enough. Just do them regularly, and in small amounts, since you aren't working with a lot of water to begin with. Changing a gallon a week would be simple, cheap, and should keep water quality good unless something goes wrong or dies. If anything, maybe add a very small pinch of kalkwasser to the water you use to replace that which evaporates and drip it in slowly overnight.

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by snorkelmark
you'll spend more time maintaining a 10 gallon than you would a 55 gallon!
I dunno, I disagree I guess.

Changing 1g of water vs. 5.5 gallons [10% each] twice weekly takes a very different amount of time IME.
Cost is a lot more for a larger tank ... nevermind 55g tanks are just terrible reef tanks IMO [very little surface area for their size, hard to aquascape - requires long-linear lights [or uses others inefficiently].

Personally, I don't think a 10g w/ 10g sump that bad an idea. You can't vacation for a week reliably ... but my wife picked up reefing + taught me in her 10g that lasted over 4 years before upgrading [had two LPS in there nearly the whole time].

Personally, if going with a nano ... I'd just do bi-weekly w/c's to balance the water + help export, run a shallow substrate that's well maintained [DSB is likely not viable long-term in such a limited space] ... stock light with fish, go with softies/zoanthids/mushrooms ... maybe a single [final addition] LPS-type coral for a centerpiece.

Check the Nano forum here ... probably lots of inspiration, good ideas, and people who have had small tanks.

While I'd probably suggest going larger [24" cube :D] ... as you will likely upgrade anyway ... there's nothing wrong with a nano, provided you take it's benefits/problems in consideration.
And that's the same considerations you'd need for what you choose for livestock, substrate, fish ... etc. No way is perfect, just find the best way to run what you're going for :)

Just my 2 cents, but almost seems like things are getting overly complicated.

[timschmidt]

Thank you everyone for all your opinions and experience. I will create my nano tank with minimal occupants and then slowly build my experience. When I start my tank should I just post the pics of progress here or start a thread in the nano forum? You all interested in seeing my progress? ( you could get a good laugh who knows )

Thank you again,
Tim

[MiddletonMark]

Yes, I'd love to watch progress. It's never super fast ... but is always nice to see IMO :)

[Whether we like to admit it or not, every one of us was in your just-starting shoes at one time too. There's no shame in that, and it's nice seeing people improve on where/how I started].