My new basement sump and water system (large pic warning) ongoing details

[RokleM]

I'll launch right in with a background: I haven't even added a fish to my 58 gallon RR, but I'm already addicted (two Goby's in quarantine). I've wanted to do this since I was young, and now have the resources to do so.

One of my most recent pictures:

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.08.2005-5.jpg

And here is my CURRENT sump:

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/10.23.2005-19.jpg

I quickly realized, no matter how clean I made it, I just don't have the space to do everything I'd like. Let's not even bring up the fact that I have maybe 36 hours before required top off. Add in the hastle of carrying water up, making a mess, you name it.

Currently, the tank is the computer room. It will stay here long term, but this is actually the formal dinning room, which I'm sure my wife would like to have sometime down the road. At that point, I'll be moving my computer to the basement in my network/lab area. It just so happens that this area is right underneath the current tank, and has room for like a 7 foot tank sometime in the future :D



SOOO... My sump functions are going to the basement for my current tank. If I do indeed get another larger tank and put it in my office downstairs, it is literally about 3 feet away from this new sump area.

My thoughts before I started building:
1) I hate messing with all the work of creating RO/DI
2) I hate hauling water
3) I hate the time it takes for me currently to do a water change
4) I hate the lack of space I currently have
5) Did I mention I hate hauling water? (and it's currently made in the basement, hauled upstairs to my tank) :rolleyes:



So my thought process is, let's not automate it, but make it a WHOLE lot easier.

1) Very top shelf, holds the RO/DI unit and a 50 gal POLY Rubbermaid. This has a ball valve going to the tub on the middle shelf.
2) Middle shelf, salt water mixing in another 50 gal POLY Rubbermaid. This has another ball valve going to the bottom shelf/floor.
3) Bottom shelf/floor, SUMP in a 100 gal POLY Rubbermaid.
4) In addition, I stack my quarantine and hospital tank right next to them
5) My basement sink (cheap plastic job) is about 30' away, now VERY easy for water changes (sump to quarantine, quarantine to sink).



Things still to be done:
1) Although it's pretty solid right now (built the sucker to hopefully hold 1000-1500 total on those two shelves), I want to mount it to the wall or ceiling with just a few screws. This is just to ensure it doesn't come down.

2) I have to get all my RO/DO lines in place. I have to get a tube that runs all the way to the unit for the unfiltered water, then another all the way back for waste. OR, I can put the unit way high over at the sink side, and just send the RO/DI into the top bin. My problem there is gravity, and the fact I don't have a ton of room to work with.

3) Plumbing, plumbing, and some more plumbing. I have holes to cut in the floor, all the piping to make, testing the Rubbermaid's for leaks, and somehow make it easy enough to move from my old system to new, and right back if necessary (if something doesn't work).

4) Massive sump work. A LOT to do here. I'm thinking a bucket in there for my skimmer (currently AquaC EV-120). I'm decently happy with it, but if I'm adding this volume, it's unfortunately time to upgrade. I'll be doing some corals, so maybe a bin or two for frags. I'll want to add a bin for a refuge (chaeto). I think I'll put the actual return pump in a bin or some kind of enclosure, which then would allow me to actually put a couple of fishes and life in the bottom of the sump and not worry about them being sucked in.

5) Last but not least, I need to get covers for all the bins. I can easily cut acrylic or such to cover the top two. I will cover a portion of the bottom sump. I already am monitoring humidity in the house (have had a large humidifier down in the basement since we moved in over two years ago). I'm sitting at about 35% in the room with this tank, and 34% downstairs. I'll see if any issues arise there.

SOOOOO.... Picture time!!! I am looking for feedback, thoughts, ideas, you name it. I'm still a rookie at this as I stated, so guys, please give me anything you have. Have no mercy! If I'm headed towards something you might be an issue, call it out!

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.20.2005-01.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.20.2005-02.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.20.2005-03.jpg

[RokleM]

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.20.2005-04.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.20.2005-05.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.20.2005-06.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.20.2005-07.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.20.2005-08.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.20.2005-09.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.20.2005-10.jpg

[RokleM]

And before it's asked, there are some design things in there people might not understand. This was built and installed with no help. I had to do some things a little differently, so I could literally assemble it myself with no issues.

An example: the little 1x1 blocks on top of the shelves. I measured and drilled all the bolt holes ahead of time. That being done, I could literally sit the 4x4 posts up, and slide the shelf into place (wouldn't wander with the block on bottom and top), and insert the bolts quick.

[aqua_obs]

I need you to hurry up and finish it, so you can come to my house and help me finish mine!!! ooooo----ahhhh, very nice and can't wait to see the rest! Looks like some good ideas coming along here!

[RokleM]

Yeah, it's getting there. I have probably about 20 hours in so far (design, building, and such).

[Simms142]

How are you going to acess the top tank. Looks to me like it might be cumbersome if you ever have to.

But anyways, very very nice. I wanted to do the same thing myself, but your is way nicer than what i was going to go for.

[RokleM]

That will be just RO/DI water, so I have no real use to get in there. If I do need to, I'll just stop water production for a time.

[RokleM]

Well I have the individual Rubbermaid's hooked up in the basement (RO/DI top shelf to SALT middle to SUMP bottom). All is looking good, except for the Rubbermaid's themselves. The bulkhead they come with is leaking on all three. I'm guessing I could either put some sort of sealant in there, or maybe an actual aquarium bulkhead would work better. I'll have to take them apart and determine the size of hole they have drilled in all three units.

I'll try to get some more pictures posted. Next is getting the rest of the SPAflex I need tomorrow. My pump should be arriving tomorrow as well. Another 5 days or so (couple days of leak testing, making new RO/DI, etc) and it should hopefully be ready.

At that point, I have to figure out how I can get my current skimmer in there (probably building a new one), what bins I can use for frags and and cheato, how to protect the pump intake area from sucking in anything living in the sump, getting some sort of lights installed, etc.

Lots of work ;)

[mc-cro]

Those bulkheads are notorious for leaking. alot of people put the plug back in and then drill a new hole on the side. I have used tons of teflon and they still leak a little.

I am a little nervous about your shelves. the way you have it designed, all the weight is going to be supported by the bolts.
I would feel alot better myself if you wedged a 2x4 under the bracket down to the floor, that way the weight is shifted to the 2x4 and not the bolts that will start to get rusty from the salt air.

[RokleM]

Yeah, they aren't leaking bad, but they are dribbling. I think I'll just get some standard bulkheads to put in, and see how they do. I'm in Columbus, so Savko is local (easy for me).

I do honestly appreciate the feedback on the stand. Each corner is held up by 3 1/4" bolts as well as 2 2.5" screws. None the less, over-engineering as many of us do, I was thinking about putting a brace in there as well. I was thinking 1x2's though. Either way, adding a little something extra can't hurt.

[RokleM]

Most recent picture:

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/11.27.2005-4.jpg

[badgers]

have you considered an exhaust fan for this area?

[RokleM]

I purchased one of the "weather stations". I've got a sensor in my computer room and current tank room, as well as in the basement currently. I have two more on order to watch other spots in the house.

My house sits between 30-35% humidity. This includes the current basement where I have 75 gal of RO/DI and salt water currently in cheap Rubbermaid tubs. I have a dehumidifier already downstairs. I don't think it's honestly going to end up being an issue, but if so, I can always install one in the window right be the rack).

I've read that 45-50% is supposedly comfortable/safe for a house.

Thoughts?

[RokleM]

3 Savko Schedule 80 bulkheads added. The holes in the containers are like 2 1/8", and the bulkhead is 1 7/8". There isn't a ton of play and I think I centered them pretty well. I wonder if it would be better to dremel out just a tiny bit and add in the 2 3/8" bulkheads (1 1/4" hole)? Maybe just the 100 gal where the majority of the pressure will be?

I have added enough water to cover the bulkheads plus about an inch, and not a drop so far. I'm going to leave it like that for tonight to see if it springs any leaks.

Tomorrow I'll reinforce with some 2x4's, and fill all the containers to the top. I have to hit Savko again tomorrow (need spaflex), so I'll try to make a bulkhead decision by then.

[tinygiants]

Looks very nice.

I have a few questions for you.

Are you experiencing any sagging of the shelves? It appears that the shelves are 1 1/2" X 1 1/2" frames with 3/4 sheeting. My personal experience is that span supported by that size lumber will sag. If you do get sagging, an easy fix would be to add a center leg front and rear. For strength, this leg should verticaly support the load. (I'll explain more in my next observation.)

Over time, there is a chance of your bolt holes and blocks pulling from the support legs. In your current design the bolts are providing strength through a "SHEAR" load. In typical framing (construction pics, look at the KING Studs and TRIMMER Studs - http://www.hometips.com/hyhw/structure/115wall.html ) your legs would be the King Studs, and Trimmer Studs would carry the load. The bolts or nails would only apply attachment strength. The lumber used in a compression fashion is extremely strong. The bolts used in shear fashion will pull and deform the wood under much less load.

Of course my observations are of no matter if you are not experiencing any of these symptoms. If you do though the fix is an easy one.

Please do not miss understand this reply. I think the set up is very neat looking and your ideas for 1 person assembly are understood. (I too work alone.)

Good Luck
Dale

[RokleM]

Not having put the full weight on them yet, I can't state if they'll sag at all or not in the long haul.

In the diagram you forwarded over, that is pretty much what I'm going to do. I was thinking about further vertical reinforcement, and mc-cro recommended putting 2x4's under the shelves vertically along the 4x4's for further support. You're right, it is a quick fix. A couple of cuts, slap a few 2.5" screws through the 2x4's into the 4x4's themselves, and it's done. Probably 30 min of work at max.

I agree, that if the middles start sagging, vertical 2x4's could be added in the middle section.

Honestly, we're looking at about 400-500 working pounds on those shelves, so I don't really anticipate a problem. However, I don't want to be fixing it a couple of months down the road if I can avoid it :) I'm more worried about the bulkhead at the bottom of a 100 gallon sump blowing out heh

I do appreciate all the feedback guys. This is one of those hobbies that takes into account a LOT of various skills (engineering, mechanical, plumbing, you name it), so when people throw out ideas, it just makes us all stronger in the long run. Have no fear, I take no offense ;)

[tinygiants]

I just read about your bulkhead issue again. I too had a bulkhead failure on my rubbermaid. The bulkhead they come with is just ABS. I went to my plumbing supply and paid big money for a schedule 80 1 1/4 bulkhead. I had to make a small amount of clearance in the hole, but it is nothing a dremel cant fix.

I reccomend against any kind of FIX using a sealant. The seal is supposed to be between the flange and the rubber gasket pressed against the side wall. Any kind of leak will tempt you to tighten the fitting till it cracks. For me the true bulkhead was worth the piece of mind. It is very stout, and I was able to snug down the compression nut till I got good compression on the gasket.

Good Luck,
Dale

[tinygiants]

How are you doing your floor holes?

For mine, I pulled the carpet back and cut a rectangle hole. I kept the block so I can patch the hole later. I then put the carpet back and just cut a slice in it. If or when I take down the tank I can carpet tape the slit and install the patch with a cross brace from beneath the floor. There is no visible indication left in the carpet. This was important for me since we may try and sell our home in the next year or two.

Good Luck
Dale

[RokleM]

Originally posted by tinygiants
I just read about your bulkhead issue again. I too had a bulkhead failure on my rubbermaid. The bulkhead they come with is just ABS. I went to my plumbing supply and paid big money for a schedule 80 1 1/4 bulkhead. I had to make a small amount of clearance in the hole, but it is nothing a dremel cant fix.

Yeah, I have have to hit Savko tonight, so I might grab one of the next size up bulkheads to see how it fits. I'm honestly not worried too much about a potential leak on the top two containers, as those are just storage. The bottom sump is where my worry is, as well as the highest pressure.

Originally posted by tinygiants
How are you doing your floor holes?


Almost identical to yours, however I hadn't thought about cutting a larger square instead of a couple smaller circles. I think I'll do that instead. I'm in the same situation, that I'd like to make sure I don't destroy the room, in case we move or turn it into something else in the future.

On a side note, I was thinking about this last night... Do most external pumps stop (for lack of a better term) reverse suction? My current outlet into the tank is about 3" under water. I know right now my MAG doesn't allow the water to flow in the wrong direction through it when it's off. I wonder if the Sequence will perform the same way?

[tinygiants]

In my experience, they will not reliably stop flow. I use a overflow tower for this purpose. The overflow tower will drain down to the pipw height, but the tank will only drain down to the teeth of the tower.

Good Luck,
Dale

[RokleM]

Originally posted by tinygiants
In my experience, they will not reliably stop flow. I use a overflow tower for this purpose. The overflow tower will drain down to the pipw height, but the tank will only drain down to the teeth of the tower.

Good Luck,
Dale

I guess I'll just have to test. I could always move that closer to the surface, although I like it for additional water flow down in the tank. I'm not as much worried about compensating for the extra sump volume, but critters getting sucked in if it starts flowing the wrong direction due to power loss or pump failure. My MAG doesn't allow it, so I'll have to see how this pump handles it.

[tinygiants]

I read the post wrong. You wrote outlet, but I interpreted sump return. The out let can be compensated for. My return lines are below water surface as well. My returns come in through the overflow tower box. On my return line I have a very small pinhole above the running water line, but on the bottom side of the pipe. This allows a dribble of water to spray into the overflow tower during operations. In a power down situation the hole acts as a siphon breaker. As the water in the return pipe drains, air is sucked through the hole instead of sucking water out of the tank.

Good Luck
Dale

[mc-cro]

As for drilling holes in the floor, at my last house I peeled the carpet back and drilled in the subfloor to the basement.
When I moved the tank, the carpet just didnt look right because of being folded all that time- but it was a minor issue.

At the new house I have hardwood floors, and the wife was not gonna let me drill through them. So, I cut a square hole in the wall(the exact size of a heater register) then cut a section out of the bottom plate inside the wall. then if the tank is ever moved, a $10 heat register will mask the hole very well.

[RokleM]

That makes sense on the backflow... I'll look into that.

Good idea on the register, however the area is about 1-2' from the current register in the room.

[kiowascout]

I did the same thing.

I cut out a setion of wall and drilled through the stud plate into the basement.

Then I ran my pipe (3 x 1.5") and then I used scarp drywall to path the wall. I cut out a "slot" in the drywall where the pipes poke out of the wall with a spiral saw.

I'm in the process of using the fiberglass mesh and spackle right now to blend the seams.

I went with the wall option because of hardwood flooring also. I just couldnt bring myself to cutting through it.

[fishking]

nice job on the sump, im planning to start my basement sump on my christmas vacation, i made a stand to raise the lvl of the sump approx. 3-4 ft. Where did you get your rubbermaid sumps from and for the bulkhead, do i just drill a hole out and put a bulkhead in????? and also how will i be able to reduce the microbubbles, can i use a filtersock???

thanx
larry

[tinygiants]

http://www.tinygiants.com/wwwthreads/files/8732-sump.jpg
This shot was taken during construction.

The horizontal drum is RODI. The vertical drum is the saltwater mixing vat.
The maze of valves allows me to drain the sump then pump in the new saltwater via the return pump. I have since added a table to support the 20 G refugium over the sump.

Dale

[RokleM]

Originally posted by fishking
nice job on the sump, im planning to start my basement sump on my christmas vacation, i made a stand to raise the lvl of the sump approx. 3-4 ft. Where did you get your rubbermaid sumps from and for the bulkhead, do i just drill a hole out and put a bulkhead in????? and also how will i be able to reduce the microbubbles, can i use a filtersock???

thanx
larry

The rubbermaid containers you can get at pretty much any Tractor Supply store. They are pre-drilled and have a bulkhead already installed, but it leaks. I replaced them with savko.com bulkheads.


Update: I took the dremmel to the 100 gal last night and put in a larger 1 1/4" bulkhead. It seems to fit a LOT better. I didn't get time to reinforce the stand and load it full of water last night (hopefully tonight).

[fishking]

what size would fit the rubbermaid 150

[RokleM]

Well, if it comes down now, it's meant to! I reinforced it a little further, and have all the containers 4/5ths full. I'll look for leaks tomorrow and go from there.

Now to get the tops of the containers and such ready.

I'll get some more pictures tomorrow or whenever I get that area clear of construction ;)

[NY_Englishman]

Hi Guys,

This is a great thread and a big help to me; I'm about to set up something very similar.

Tinygiants: may I ask you how you did your auto-top off and where you got your drums/vats from?

Keep the info coming!!

[tinygiants]

I tied my RODI straight in to my sump (most people think that is a bad idea) via a float valve and to my storage drum via a float valve. The RODI has a solenoid valve on the feed. When the float valves cause a back pressure, the solenoid shuts off the RODI feed water. The storage drums are used food grade drums. I got them from my local hardware store (~20 bucks). They are available at Us Plastics (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=25&product%5Fid=312), but new they are expensive.

Dale

[NY_Englishman]

Thanks Dale for the info - I really like your plumbing setup.

RoKleM - your setup looks great, too! I want to do something similar in my basement but it has a low ceiling so I may do something like Dale's.

[cannarella]

tinygiants, are you running your return to your tank and protein skimmer off one pump? What type of PS are you using? What pump are you using. Is your tank upstairs?

Andy

[tinygiants]

Originally posted by cannarella
tinygiants, are you running your return to your tank and protein skimmer off one pump? What type of PS are you using? What pump are you using. Is your tank upstairs?

Andy

No not currently, but I will. My return pump feeds the tank. The tank overflow feeds my refugium, UV, and the sump. My protien skimmer is fed by a mag 7 in the filter sock that the tank returns to. My plan is to build a overflow fed air driven counter current skimmer. It will not require a water pump.

dale

[RokleM]

Pictures of the reinforcement below. No leaks at all for 24 hours with water almost spilling over the top. No shelf sag as of yet, but again that is an easy fix down the road. I've emptied the top two containers and wiped out any remains with a paper towel. I'm creating production RO/DI there now for current water changes. I also put the hospital tank in place (haven't had to use it yet), and will be hopefully moving the quarantine down there this weekend. My two Goby's are now in my live 58gal, so it's time to move that and get my next two fish picked up :)

TONS of stuff still to do:

1) Pump is in, so I need to get all the actual floor basement plumbing done. I have to try to move some insulation, but I think I can go through the drywall instead of the floor.

2) Power, is a HUGE section in itself. I can easily run some extension cable to my main tank upstairs. The benefit of this is, I have a larger APC Smart UPS to install. I also need to work on the power grid itself. I'd like to get some on and off switches, more timers, and everything GCFI. Everything could be powered from one central spot (main aquarium, sump, salt mixing, quarantine, and hospital).

3) Covers for the top two tanks need to go in, to assist with minimal evaporation

4) And I won't even get started on the sump itself. Flow, skimmer, lighting, algae area, frag area, etc, etc.

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/12.01.2005-1.jpg
http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/12.01.2005-2.jpg

[tinygiants]

Looks good. Now your new boards are carrying the load, not the bolts.

Good luck with your plumbing. No matter how you do it, you will think of an improvement when you finish.

dale

[RokleM]

As soon as I started making RO/DI over there it was an improvement ;) I had been using two tubs, but they're in my workshop and a pain to get around.

[neo1013]

any new updates. i need to see the finnished product so i can borrow you ideas

[RokleM]

Maaaaaaaaany changes. I recently took pictures of everything, so I might as well post them all.

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.26.2006-05.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-02.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-03.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-04.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-05.jpg

[RokleM]

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-06.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-07.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-08.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-09.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-10.jpg

[RokleM]

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-11.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-12.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-13.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-14.jpg

http://mad-skillz.com/aquarium/03.07.2006-setup-15.jpg