Yet another Calcium question...

[TNDave]

Randy,

Let me start by saying that I have spent 4 days searching the boards and reading every thread I can find about Calcium and Alkalinity, and now I am more confused than ever, just when I thought I knew what I was doing. That is the reason for my question.

I have a 65 gal tank, and am having trouble getting the Calcium over 300. 2 weeks ago the Ca fell from 450 to 300, and Alk fell from 3.4 to 2.6. Since then the Ca has dropped to as low as 240, and alk to 2.2meq/L. I started adding Kent Turbo Ca daily, and Seachem Reef Builder Alk supplement, and had NO success. After doing some reading here, I saw where you advised someone with the same problem to not do the ALK buffer due to calcium precipition. I did see a lot of white powder on my heater, so I stopped with the alk buffer. Now today my Calcium is up to 350, but Alk is low at 2.8meq/l. I started dripping vinegar spiked Kalk 3 days ago, hoping to keep the Alk from falling.

Am I understanding/reading this right? Am I doing the right thing? Should I be dosing the Reef Builder, but in smaller proportions than the turbo Calcium?

Also, once I get the Calcium to where I want it, should I stop with the turbo Ca, keep dripping spiked Kalk, and start using the Reef Builder again to get the alk up to the proper level?

Once everything is where it belongs I plan on dripping spiked kalk and supplementing with Kent Tech CB 2 part 2 or 3 times a week.

Thanks for your help, as I am VERY confused now.

-Dave

[andy-hipkiss]

Dave,

Before doing anything it may be worth doing another calcium test with a different kit just to check that you aren't acting on "false" readings.

What is your magnesium level? I'd take a wild guess that that is your problem if it isn't an iffy Ca test kit. Depending upon what the result is you may find it easier to fix via large water changes or magnesium chloride. Any reading above 1250 is probably ok, although I target around 1350ppm.

By the way, 2.8 meq/l is still above NSW, so your alk isn't low.

Dunno what Randy thinks, but personally having addressed the potential low magnesium levels, I'd be adding calcium chloride until you reach 420 ppm and add enough of the alk product to keep that alk at 2.8 meq/l.

If you are going to use Seachem product then I think its the Reef Carbonate to use for alkalinity, not sure what they call calcium chloride. The Reef Advantage Calcium would do.

[Experimenter]

Hi,

I'm obviously not Randy, but I wanted to answer to see if I actually understand this myself. And Randy can certainly tell me if I haven't a clue.

This is what I would do if I were in your position:

1. Do a major water change making sure that I use full strength salinity water.

2. Retest after the water change to see where things are.

3. If calcium and alk are where I think they should be - reasonably close to NSW, then I would store the Turbo Calcium and Reef Builder Alk in hopes of never touching them again. I would then continue with the limewater dosing, or use a 2-part additive for CA and ALK supplementation. I just think these single part additives get people in more trouble than they are worth (except to correct an imbalance).

If the Ca is still low and the Alk is at NSW levels, then I would add a calcium additive (probably the turbo Ca you already have) until I get it up to say 420 or so.

If both are low, then I would drip limewater to get them up to NSW levels.

I think the worry about calcium carbonate precipitation arrises when you are out of balance (high on one factor) and quickly add one factor (the one you are low on) to the tank. This could actually reduce levels of both - I think.

Good luck with it, Dave.

Well, Randy, how did I do?

Take care,
John

[TNDave]

Andy, thanks for your answers. I have been using both a Red Sea and a Seachem kit and getting agreeable numbers. Don't have a magnesium kit, but I am using Crystal Sea salt and they "guarantee" Magnesium of around 1400. I did a 25% water change and the Ca stayed at 270, alk at 2.8. Have done 2 10% water changes seperated by 1 day and levels are starting to come up into line.

Experimeter, thanks to you as well. The thing that really got me puzzled was the 25% water change and the Ca stayed at 270. I tested the new water after mixing and it was Ca 420, alk 3.5, so the resulting low level after the somewhat large change had me concerned.

This stuff is easy to get confused with!

Thanks again for both your answers!

[TNDave]

OK, I am starting to get a little frustrated, and I don't understand what is happening in my system. 2 days ago (the day in between the 2 10% water changes) my alk was 2.2meq/l, Ca 300, and pH 8.4. Yesterday I did a 10% water change, waited about 4 hours, and tested the parameters at alk 2.8, Ca 350, pH 8.4. Last night after lights out I added 1 tsp of turbo Calcium and started a gallaon of Kalkwasser dripping.

So tonight, I make the measurements and get alk 2.2, Ca 275, and pH still solid at 8.4. What the heck is going on!!!!! I don't understand why the Ca is falling and it won't go up. My nice dark purple and pink coralline is bleaching white and/or fading away, and I am pulling my hair out.

Any help/ideas/suggestions are GREATLY appreciated!

-Dave :(

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dave:

There's just no way that calcium can be rising and falling 100 ppm per day. It's just not possible (unless you are dumping loads of stuff intot he tank). There's not enough alkalinity in the water to form calcium carbonate from that much calcium (and not to mention it reappearing and the fact that the pH is solid).

I'd put a big wager on a faulty kit (probably the calcium kit) as Andy suggested. Test the fresh mixed salt water: what do you get? I'm not familiar with this brand, so you might do the same with Instant Ocean.

John:

If his test results are real, the advice that you gave sounds very reasonable:)

[TNDave]

Randy,

THe fluctuation is what has me puzzled. I am testing using 2 different kits and getting agreement within 25ppm every time. The two kits are a Seachem Reef Status titration kit and the second is a Red Sea kit where you add drops until you get a color change.

I have also taken samples to my LFS and they used their Salifert test kit and were within 10ppm of my results the 2 times they have done it for me.

I have tested the mixed water (after allowing it to mix for several hours) and gotten a value of 425ppm. It is Crystal Sea brand, and I believe it used to be Forty Fathoms.

Im no chemist, but I am an engineer and I don't think I am using both test kits incorrectly (although I have been wrong before;) )

One more question, I am using "surface" water to do my tests, and I don't have a huge amount of surface circulation. The water does not stagnate, but it is not moving around at a great rate either. Should I try to get a "deeper" or middle of the tank water sample?

I'm at my wits end here. When you say unless I am dumping lots of stuff into the tank, I am adding 1 tsp of Kent Turbo Calcium per day, and dripping 1/2 gal of kalkwasswer each night. SHould I cool it with the Ca additive and just drip Kalk and do partial water changes every few days? I have done 2 10% changes in the last 3 days.

Thanks again for any and all help.

- Frustrated Dave:(

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dave;

I can see why you are frustrated.

Should I try to get a "deeper" or middle of the tank water sample?

No, that won't matter.

When you say unless I am dumping lots of stuff into the tank, I am adding 1 tsp of Kent Turbo Calcium per day, and dripping 1/2 gal of kalkwasswer each night. SHould I cool it with the Ca additive and just drip Kalk and do partial water changes every few days?

No, that won't matter. I was thinking of cups of solid buffer.

When the LFS test agreed, was the value one of the ones in the 200's?

Let's back up and discuss the animals. How are they doing? How high is the coral load in the tank?

[TNDave]

Randy,

The real frustrating part is that I have just started (back in Aug) to convert to reef from FOWLR (after 2.5yrs). The animal/coral load is pretty light. The coral load is 1 3" square of zooanthid polyps and 1 medium meat polyp and another small meat polyp. THere are also a couple of polyps that grew on the live rock.

All the animals are doing great, looking healthy. All the corals are opening up nicely each day, and all my snails are growing new shells. The only thing that is NOT doing good is my coralline algae, which is bleaching white and fading away. Also, forgot to add, that I have a Haitian pink tip anenome that has not been doing to good for the last 10 days or so.

The LFS store tests that agreed with mine were around 270.

Thanks again for all your help.

-Dave

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmmmm. It sounds as if you have almost no calcium or alkalinity demand.

If you believe the test results, I'd just keep pumping in the calcium and alkalinity supplements until the values come up.

You won't be able to use a balanced additive to raise the calcium and alk because the calcium has so much farther to come up. Boost it to 410 ppm with calcium chloride, and then worry about the alkalinity.

To raise calcium by 150 ppm in a 65 gallon tank will take about 100 grams of calcium chloride.

[TNDave]

Randy,

Thanks again for all your help. Can the calcium be added in one shot, or should I split it over 2 or 3 days? Do I need to drip it slowly or can it be dissolved in RO/tank water and just dumped in?

The other thing that bothers me, with such low/no demand, why are the levels so screwy? And where is all the calcium going that I am adding daily (1 tsp of Turbo Calcium)?

Thanks again

-"Still Frustrated but Feelin' Better" Dave :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dave:

The other thing that bothers me, with such low/no demand, why are the levels so screwy? And where is all the calcium going that I am adding daily (1 tsp of Turbo Calcium)?

That's a good question. Maybe the coralline algae?

Thanks again for all your help. Can the calcium be added in one shot, or should I split it over 2 or 3 days? Do I need to drip it slowly or can it be dissolved in RO/tank water and just dumped in?

If you are using calcium chloride, there's no need to drip. Dissolve it in some water, and add it either all at once or over 2-3 days, either way. Add it in a high flow area away from corals.

[aeroworm]

I also was experiencing similar alkalinity and calcium problems that just didnt seem to make much sense. Here's what I ended up doing. I decided to act on the premise that I had created an inbalance from adding too many chemicals and that I needed to start over.
1. I stopped adding anything and vowed to wean myself from the daily (or more) chemistry monitoring. My corals and fish were doing ok but my calcarious algae was dissappearing like yours.
2. Over the next week I changed about 15-20 gallons of water (90gal tank) every other day. I added nothing but make-up water during this time.
3. After that week I started adding Kent Super DKH. The alkalinity stabilized but the calcium was still low (under 200).
4. On alternate days from the Super DKH, I started adding Seachem Reef Complete. Within 2 weeks my Calcium was up to 350 and the coraline algae is growing back. I think alkalinity and calcium need to be added on separate days.
It's very easy to get caught up in manipulating the chemistry and the advertising associated with reef products does not give much useful information. Less is more. Simpler is better.

[TNDave]

aeroworm: I have also backed down to only dripping vinegar spiked kalk, doing 10% water changes every 3 or 4 days, and adding turbo Ca to boost CA. Things are finally looking MUCH better!

SUCCESS!! thanks Randy!! Did the first of 3 big doses of CA yesterday, and today my Ca is up to between 300-350ppm. Finally starting to get where it needs to be, and I am no longer Frustrated!!

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions!

-Dave:)