Newbie needs help...HELP!

[vlockman]

Hi Dr Ron,

I have a 55 gal acrylic. Decided I MUST have a reef tank. :)
(presently also have a glass 55 gal freshwater w/angels) Would like to keep it as simple as possible, but want to do it right to start with (hate to kill things)

I have already purchased two compact 22" fixtures w/two 36W ea. Will this be sufficient for a good reef (to be able to have anemone and coral?) If not, what is basic requirement?

Will be using live sand & live rock. What should I add to the live sand to start out? Any critters?

Do I need a bio-filter? How do I decide which skimmer to buy? (have you heard anything about the 'Skilters'?)

Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated. I have read just enough to be terribly confused
:confused:

TIA, Val

[Agu]

Val,

I moved your thread to the "new to the Hobby" forum.

Agu

[vlockman]

Thanks so much for all the great answers I received. Will say I found out most of what I needed from the wonderful answers everyone else got.

Have belonged to the Angelfish Forum for some time. The people there are very friendly, and welcome new people. They always answer questions as soon as they can, no matter how basic...if nothing else direct people to the proper threads.

Really sad.

[Steve Richardson]

Greetings.

Sorry you didnt get as many responses as you would have liked.. I just noticed it.

Your questions are quite broad, so perhaps starting with smaller questions would get more input. Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

> "Would like to keep it as simple as possible, but want to do it right to start with (hate to kill things)"

Great. Words of wisdom.

>"I have already purchased two compact 22" fixtures w/two 36W ea. Will this be sufficient for a good reef (to be able to have anemone and coral?) If not, what is basic requirement?"

Well... yes and no. There are many types of coral, and each has its own requirements. I would suggest getting a book on coral species (Look in the 'Books' area) and first decide what sort of species you would like to have, and become familiar with the requirements of them. For a wide variety of corals including soft corals, Large and small polyped scleractinians (stony) corals, coralinamorphs, etc.. you would need better lighting. 'Basic' requirements, if thay can be defined... are high intensity Power Compasts, VHO (Very High Output Flour), or even MH Metal Halide systems. These lighting systems provide the types of intensity you would want to help keep a broad range of animals thriving.

'an anemone and a coral'? well Thats a mouthfull. :) As I said.. its important to determine exactly what animals you are looking at. Many anemones are among the most difficult animals to keep in captivity and may not survive more than a few months. Some are hardier.

review this for some basic info: http://www.keil.ukans.edu/ebooks/intro.html
and...
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/jul/wb/default.asp

As for coral.. some are decidedly easier to keep than others. Mushrooms (Discosoma), Polyps (zoanthus, parazoanthus, protopalythoa), leather...etc. You should get a basic book on the setup and maintenance of a reef tank first.. and get a good idea of where you are going first. Important not to put the cart before the horse. ;)

"Will be using live sand & live rock. What should I add to the live sand to start out? Any critters? "

Live Sand & Rock is a good start. In general, you want to keep the sand bed alive with lots of critters... worms, forams, amphipods, scavenging snails etc. To some 'dead sand' Many like to add a little live sand to get it going - and perhaps some of the commercially available bristleworms, sandworms, ministars etc to get the biodiversity going. Here is some info on sand beds:

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/r_shimek_090698.html
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/oct/wb/default.asp

?"Do I need a bio-filter?"

Specifically... no. The Live Rock and Deep sand bets will provide all of the bacteriological activity you need, and will do it better in many ways.. including keeping nitrates to 0ppm.

>"How do I decide which skimmer to buy? (have you heard anything about the 'Skilters'?) "

There are numerous threads discussing skimmers. (perhaps thousands ;) ) Search for a few of them. For a 55 gallon tank, I might suggest a small ETS... but look around.

Overall, I think its important to gain a general idea of what you want, and reefkeeping as a whole. I would *not* suggest throwing an anemone, some live rock, a few corals and a fish or 2 into a tank and then trying to play catch up. Its not hard, but your chances of success improve greatly if you have some clue about what fish/coral/inverts NOT to buy... and also how to care properly for the ones you do select... including how to create a proper environment for them.


Cheap and informative:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1582451176/reeflink

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890087025/reeflink

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890087009/reeflink



Sorry you feel you got snubbed... You will get better responses if you target your questions a little more methinks. Welcome. :D

Good luck, and keep the questions coming...

[vlockman]

Steve, thanks very much for your reply. Certainly gives me plenty of info.

One more question for now, is it true I can take a bare tank, add live sand (4-6"),uncured rock, and an uncooked raw shrimp and be patient until it cycles and still have life in everything? With a skimmer and moving powerheads, of course. Possible I missed something in all this reading.

I intend to do a LOT of research before I start adding any livestock. Okay to start with cleaner shrimp and hermit crabs? Is there some reason you guys are getting away from hermit crabs? Is there something better? More questions, sorry.:D

TIA Val:)

[griss]

Hey Steve did you get a book deal on that reply:D Just kidding of course.

Vlockman, the informations Steve provided in right on in my opinion.

Griss

[vlockman]

I already ordered Dr Ron's book on reefs. Will look into the others.

[Steve Richardson]

Originally posted by vlockman
..is it true I can take a bare tank, add live sand (4-6"),uncured rock, and an uncooked raw shrimp and be patient until it cycles and still have life in everything?

What you want is to start with rock and dead sand. (aragomax, southdown, or some other base sand that is sugar fine or finer). The Live Rock will have sufficient biomass and die off to 'cycle' the tank. You dont need to add anything like bacteriological additives, or even food like some shrimp. ;) The rock is simply seething with bacteria and all sorts of life... though it may not be immediately apparent to you. (Many suddenly 'find' new animals popping up out of the rocks years later...) Even 'cured' live rock will die off to some extent because it will be stacked differently, have different lighting, the circulation will change etc. Once your tank stabilizes.. (stops stinking and looks good) you can follow up with a pound or 2 of live sand and perhaps a few other goodies to help encourage life in the sand bed.

I intend to do a LOT of research before I start adding any livestock. Okay to start with cleaner shrimp and hermit crabs?

Sounds good. Give your rock 3 weeks to cure...depending on how nasty it is..perhaps longer. Cleaner shrimp are cool. A bit more shy than some like... but fun. Get them small.. they do not have a terribly long lifespan anyway. Get 2 and they may breed for you. They often will climb on your hand and 'clean' you. Hermits are great scavengers and tirelessly work to keep the tank free of particulate debris and algae etc. But...

Is there some reason you guys are getting away from hermit crabs? Is there something better? More questions, sorry.:D

Many (myself included) have come to see hermits as pests a little bit. Some still swear by them. Dont overdo it. They are omniverous and will eat anything they can get their claws on when hungry.. including sandbed critters. If you have a 55, I would suggest 2-3 scarlet reef hermits and no more. For leftover fleshy food, nassarius snails live in the sandbed and eat what is decaying. They squirm up out of the sand... pretty wild looking. I would suggest 6-12 of these guys too. Also Turbo, Cerith, and Nerite snails. Cerith reproduce easily too.

Dr. Rons book is very good for getting an idea on how to do things in general and how simple it is. If you want more info on species selection etc... you may have to look into others. Get a good source for water, determine your plumbing and filtration choices out, think a little bit about lighting and curculation based on the types of animals your hoping to have...and go for it.

:cool:

[vlockman]

Steve, REALLY appreciate all this. Gives me enough to get started.
One last question...what is an ETS skimmer? and what do you think of the bakpaks? Everyone either doesn't answer or just laughs when I mention the Skilter.:D

Val

[mst_RoadRash]

Vlockman,

I just read this whole thread and I'm not going to bother answering most of your questions since Steve already has.

As far as skimmers go I would highly recommend either an AquaC Remora or AquaC Urchin. They are pretty much the same thing except the Remora hangs on the tank and the Urchin is an in-sump skimmer.

I know these skimmers are a bit pricey but they work wonders and are maintenance free. I just replaced a crap skimmer with a Remora Pro and I did a few weeks worth of research to find the best skimmer.

The CPR Bak Pak II is a good skimmer but some people have reported various small problems. Mostly people find that they just aren't as effecient as they'd like. The AquaC'ss on the other hand get terrific reviews. I know the ETS skimmers are a good brand as well but the AquaC skimmers got consistently better reviews. (Marginally better but hey, better is better right?)

You can take a look at the whole line of AquaC skimmers at www.proteinskimmer.com

Have fun with your tank. It's a blast once you get everything setup and working.

daveR

[vlockman]

Thanks Dave R...more research to do, but it really helps with feedback like this. Val

[Steve Richardson]

Yes... search the general forum for 'skimmer' you will find quite a bit of discussions on them. 100's. :)

There are several types...downdraft, countercurrent, venturi, needle wheel..etc. They all attempt the same trick - to maximize air/water mixing and air contact time with the water. Pollutants 'stick' to the air bubles and form a foam which can be collected in a waste chamber.

A Skimmer in not required, but in my opinion nearly so... especially for a beginner. Remember its job is to remove waste before it breaks down in tank. It also oxygenates the water which is a nice plus.

Anyway... your method of plumbing will make a difference. An ETS skimmer will not make much sense if you will not have a sump and intend want to 'hang it on' the back of the tank. Im not overly impressed with the hang on AquaC skimmers, but as I said, go look through some prior discussions. You want something robust.. but you only have a 55G tank, so you shouldnt have to spend a truckload of money.

Check out here to see some:

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PA&Category_Code=Skimmers

and here...

http://www.reeffanatic.com/skimmers.html

and here...

http://www.championlighting.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?page=Products/Protein_Skimmers/protein_skimmers.html

An ETS, Turbofloater, Precision Marine are also good skimmers. You could get away with less... easily I think. RedSea Berlin, CPR BakPak or similar. Heck.. I ran a 75G reef for a year on a Seaclone by Aquarium Pharm a long time ago. Hands down winner for the 'worst skimmer on the planet' if you read all the debates. :) Skilters are a little cheesy it seems.

The point is.. buy what you can afford. They all work.. some magnificently - but you really dont need a $400 skimmer on a tank your size. Keep in mind you dont want to have to buy *another* if you ever plan to upgrade...or if you fine it ineffective so sometimes a little bigger is money well spent. The more expensive models are also made often from heavyweight acrylic, more energetic pumps etc and will last.

Look at them and pick one in your price range you like and come back for more thoughts. ;)

[vlockman]

Hi Steve, seems I keep saying 'thanks', but really appreciate the advice. Maybe the Berlin? Was thinking of going with the bakpak, but have read a couple of quesionable comments, and they are only rated for 60 gal. That's the only reason I was considering the Skitter. It is rated at 100 gal, and only costs $43. Too good to be true I suppose. (do have to think of price as long as it isn't too expensive in another direction) Would like to shoot towards no skimmer some day, but am sure that will be way in the future. Definitely don't want to play with a sump or refugio. Will do good to maintain the tank alone. :D

[vlockman]

Need an opinion of how much flow there should be across live rock and whatever is on it. (later will have anemones, etc) I have found some rotating ones...at 125 gph and/or160 gph. Would these work? and if so how many should I put in?

TIA, Val

[Pepito]

Just a forewarning, If you are talking about the Zoo-something or other- Rotating powerheads they are CRAP. Absolutely horrible. My 2 cents

[vlockman]

Yes, those are the ones. Do you mean they don't work...or don't last long. What is wrong with them? Thanks

[dattack]

Originally posted by vlockman
Yes, those are the ones. Do you mean they don't work...or don't last long. What is wrong with them? Thanks
Both. It stops rotating after awhile which essentially means it's an overpriced powerhead.

[vlockman]

Okay, thanks for the info. Actually, they don't cost very much. Will check one out.

Val

[Duce]

Those zoo something will not work after I guess maybe a week in a saltwater environment...the LFS who carries them say they are junk (yes, it is a comment from those people who will sell you everything under the sun if you don't know any better). Regarding anemones from what I understand needs LOTS of lights......as well if you want one of them think of what other fishes you are planning to keep....you don't want to spend $$$ on a fish and then realize they became an expensive snack for the anemones...if you want to get the anemones because you want clown fishes then don't bother because clown will do fine without one of them.

[vlockman]

Hi,

Thanks so much for the concern. I am really more interested in anemones and maybe corals than I am a lot of fish. Beautiful creatures.

I'm working on the lights. I only have 2/24" with 4/36W right now. I will get kits and intend to add 4/55W. Hopefully, this will work. Sure can't afford to run out and buy them assembled. That will give me a total of 364W. According to what I am reading that should be enough for whatever.

Everything is still in the planning and buying stage right now. I'm not in a hurry...feel the need to do it right the first time. :D

Val

[vlockman]

Keep hearing these mentioned. How do they work? Do you have to use them to 'make waves'? Or could they be used to move water over the reef at a lower level? Do they actually move, or just come on and off.

TIA

[ReefAquaria4me]

Vlockman,

A wave machine or so call wave maker is a device that you can plug 2-4 powerheads into. This wave maker when can be set to turn each powerhead on & off at different times. They are designed to give you that wave motion of water.

Are they a much, no. But in my opinion they are a benefit to the corals of the aquarium.

[vlockman]

Thank you for your answer. I can see where that would be beneficial. I need to research more on anemones...would they benefit from the same movement? and thereby being able to keep them both. Would be better to have powerheads sweeping on their own. Is there such a thing that works in saltwater?

TIA, Val :D

[ReefAquaria4me]

Vlockman,

I believe there is. I have heard of something called a motorize ball value. I do not know much about them, but I'm sure someone here does.

[ReefAquaria4me]

Vlockman,

You may want to go to "www.marinedepot.com" and checkout their Wave Makers section.

[tgeppes]

i have a 30 gallon setup... going for a FOWLR... Lionfish setup... how needed is a skimmer? i like the idea of the Prism Skimmer by Red Sea will this cut it?
~tyler

[slimytadpole]

While wavemakers are nice, I wouldn't consider them essential enough to go out and buy one now. I suggest keeping the tank simple, and only adding extra stuff later, as money and necessity allow.
As for powerheads, I suggest the MaxiJets. I find them well made and very reliable. One problem that seems to plague many powerheads is power-cycling. Sometimes after plugging a powerhead in, or turing the switch on a surge supressor off and on, the impeller in the powerhead will not resume spinning. This can become a problem if your power goes out for a bit. It WILL be a problem if you decide to eventually get a wavemaker. The MaxiJets don't seem to suffer from this problem.

[vlockman]

Gives me more to think about. :D

[vlockman]

Steve, I found a Seaclone for $72. ;) Seriously, if it lasted you a year on a 75 gal I may go for one. My head is full :confused: with everything that is out there. I do think the venturi makes more sense and the Hot 1 sounds great, but maybe later if I need to keep one. This one will get me by until I can decide and need to get lots of other things right away. (could always get a Skilter...don't laugh, if I could get someone to admit they are using one and tell me how it works, I might) Just can't see spending hundreds on something I hope to phase out eventually.

Thanks for all your help. Val :)

[dattack]

Originally posted by vlockman
Steve, I found a Seaclone for $72. ;) Seriously, if it lasted you a year on a 75 gal I may go for one. My head is full :confused: with everything that is out there. I do think the venturi makes more sense and the Hot 1 sounds great, but maybe later if I need to keep one. This one will get me by until I can decide and need to get lots of other things right away. (could always get a Skilter...don't laugh, if I could get someone to admit they are using one and tell me how it works, I might) Just can't see spending hundreds on something I hope to phase out eventually.

Thanks for all your help. Val :)
Well if you are going to spend around $70, the Prizm skimmer is a lot better than the seaclone, especially if you get th 18 blade.

[vlockman]

Thanks...will look into it. :)

[Steve Richardson]

Avoid the Seaclone, and the skilter if you can.

Its underpowered, hard to impossible to adjust, needs frequent maintnence... its just not that good. The venturi gets clogged up with salt creep and it just stops running. Yes I used one... but I also found that I had to replace it. Condider something else that will be easier to operate for you and do a better job. Look at the BakPaks or AquaC or something...

>"Just can't see spending hundreds on something I hope to phase out eventually. "

There are a few out there that have success without skimmers longterm. It requires a certain amount of determination, and also other mechanisims for nutrient removal --- such as algae turf scrubbers etc. (Remember.... so far you have no source of filtration for your tank at all besides bacteriological action of rock and sandbed). Because of the way we load up our tanks.. and because of the desirability of systems reasonably low in nutrients in order to support various invertebrates - the great majority run skimmers forever. Since I feed fairly heavily, I personally would not be caught dead without one.

Bear in mind that a couple hundred $'s is a tiny fraction of the cost of your setup and the animals that go in there. Its probably the most important piece of equipment you will own. (lighting too). Trust me, many of us have been where you are now.

However its up to you. If you can swing the cost I would do so. I would also suggest putting a budget together.. a list (and sources) of everything you need so that you are sure you know what you are getting into. Heater, return pump, durso standpipe?, grounding probe, powerhreads, sand, rock, lights, skimmer, timer for lights, test kits, scraper for the glass, water purification system or source, Water storage barrel, calcium and alkalinity replenishment additives of some kind, etc. And an initial list of animals you may want once your tank stabilizes including specific species - snails, a couple hermits, a fish or 2, and a couple of simple polyp colonies.

The planning will give you more confidence I think.. and stop your head from spinning.

[vlockman]

Hi Steve,

Heater I already have (a 300W Visitherm)...Okay, here we go again. So much I DON'T know. What is the return pump for? I'm not going to have a sump, if it is for that. Durso standpipe? Here again, don't have a clue.

Grounding probe? Is this to ground the tank? Hmmmm, didn't even know they made them. Where would I find this? Sounds like something maybe I should get. :)

Seriously, have just about decided on a Precision Marine Hot 1. Seems to be a fairly good low end skimmer from what I can read. Also looks like it would be easier to clean (top lifts off), or do they all do that. Haven't compared motors on them yet...maybe should go there also. How strong do they need to be to clean well?

You're right about one thing. I need to back off and start over and figure out where I am. Feel so dumb...so ignorant. I am at least beginning to know a few of the questions to ask. ;)

What brand of sea salt mix do you recommend? There are so many, but I'm sure there are one or two better.

Going to use real sea sand to start the tank, along with the uncured Fiji live rock. Should be interesting. How much do I need to clean off the rocks when I get them before adding them to the sand and saltwater? Are these pretty rocks? Is there a better way to go?

Sorry for so much again.... :D

TIA, Val

[ReefAquaria4me]

Vlockman,

You seem to be dead set against a sump for your setup, just wondering why?

"What is a return pump for?"
You are correct, a return pump is used to return water to the tank for the sump.

"Durso Standpipe?"
This is a device that is used in reef ready tank to get the water to the sump with
less noise. Here is a link for it. "http://www.rl180reef.com/frames.htm" Just click on
Durso Standpipe.

So I can't help you with all your questions. But some of them I am searching myself.

Hope this helps.

[ReefAquaria4me]

Typing error on last post:

Sorry I can't help you with all your questions, but a lot of them I am still researching myself.

[vlockman]

Thanks for the reply. Don't really have an answer to that, except that to start would rather keep it simple. Sounds messy to be frank, and potentially REALLY messy. A refugio later for little things would be great, but at this point just want to get started.

I can't even make up my mind what skimmer to get. Just figured out the PM Hot 1 that I thought was only $169. is without a pump. MORE research.

Thanks again, Val:)

[ReefAquaria4me]

Vlockman,

I can understand wanting to start simple. but watch out and don't go 2 simple. In my opinion, the first time when I started a saltwater tank, I went simple. Unfortunately I think I went 2 simple, and failed. But I learned a lot.

I can feel your pain on the protein skimmer & researching. I have been researching starting a reef tank for going on 6 years now. When I think I have my mind made up on something, something comes along to change it.

But the main reason I have not started yet is money. Almost got that one fixed.

Happy posting

[vlockman]

Hmmmmmm, money. Oh yes, the thing these projects are made of. :rolleyes:

That's why I am more or less taking one thing at a time, purchasing it, and then moving on to make the whole. Hard telling how long it will take. Actually, probably not too long now if I could just make up my mind about a skimmer. I have my acrylic 55 tank, stand, heater, a place to buy uncured live rock that is reasonable, and a whole ocean a few away to dig beautiful black sand. Also have enough lights to support the live rock. Have to buy more before I can start adding creatures. Will make up the kits and won't hurt too bad. Really am thinking I may have to invest in a fairly good one as like Dr. Ron said 'it will really be an event' when my tank cycles.:D Maybe that is what is really bothering me...know I could use a strong one. Always have liked to overdo rather than under, anyway.

Research........

[vlockman]

Me again; :o

Well, I have actually narrowed it down to two skimmers.:celeb2:

Either the Aqua C Remora pro @ $230. or the Precision Marine Hot 1 @ $269. The only thing I hesitate on is the 'spray' on the Remora? Wonder if they plug up??? Does anyone know?

By spending that much will just take longer to get there, but somehow don't think I will be sorry.:cool:

[dattack]

Two good choices but overpriced there.

Aqua C $209

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PA&Category_Code=AquaC

Precision Hot-1 $170

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=PM-HOT1&Category_Code=PM

[vlockman]

Thanks again. I saw the PM hot 1 for $169. somewhere else, but then saw it for $269, and assumed it was without the pump. It didn't say either way. This one says w/pump. Always amazing the price difference for the same item in different web sites.

Wonder which one is stronger. ???

[harryt]

MY 2 cents i would go with the aqua C with the skimmer kit and the over flow kit so you can hook the skimmer cup to a hose and drain it into a jug. i have one and love it . only have to empty my skimmer once a week with the kit installed compared to once a day

[Steve Richardson]

What are you going to use for water?

[vlockman]

harryt;
REALLY sounds good. Only $$$:D The only reason I was thinking of the hot1 was ease of cleaning (this is even better) and that I could put it in a sump if I so decided later. Also like the sound of the mag3 and the overflow.

Is the drain fitting what you are talking about?

Thanks, Val :)


SteveR;
Know this has been bothering you, and meant to say earlier. I have a PureEarth on the counter filter that I got for my freshwater fish and run all my water through that. So nice to start a siphon, drain water from tank; get temp right at faucet, put on filter and send it into tanks. (hate to carry water...guess that's not an option now, heheh) Very lucky in my water here in Brookings...very little chlorine (most of the time), PH right at 7.0 (doesn't change coming out of filter), GH is between 3-8. Perfect for tropicals, don't suppose will be any different for salt??? Wish I could use the real saltwater, but Dr Ron says no, too much polution.

Thanks, Val ;)

[Steve Richardson]

Hmmm.

I believe those units are just mechanical filtration (5 micron) plus carbon.

http://www.pure-earth.com/prod.html

Most that run reefs are using some sort of robust purification system... either Reverse Osmosis, Deinonization, or both. Some buy it by the gallon from local sources. Because you are constantly adding fresh water to your tank.. even trace amounts of metals and other impurities will cause problems as they build up in tank. This of course is partially compensated for by doing regular water changes... but you want good pure water anyway. If you have hard water, (and you do) I would suggest it. Phosphate and silicates are also a common problem in tap water wich will not be cleaned up with your filter - this can lead to never ending problems with diatoms and nussiance algae.

Search for 'water', 'RO', 'DI' ... you should be able to see some discussions on water.. such as:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=36391

http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=6854

good luck,

[vlockman]

Hi Steve,

It just goes on and on, doesn't it. Yes, I can get water from my lfs that has all that stuff done to it. Not quite as much salt as we want. They want around $1.50 per gallon for it. Is that good? or can I do my own for less...but would it be worth it for the little I would need for just water changes?

Actually, my water is very soft. It is only between 3 and 8 General Hardness. Can't remember what the Kh is. Could check it if it matters.

Will check out the links...by the way thanks for the other ones you have given me, very helpful. I saw some tank bred horses online. So cute, but out of the question for my small tank.....and would rather have anemones, etc. :D

Which sea salt mix do you think is best?

Thanks, Val ;)

[Steve Richardson]

Val,

Well... lets say you will loose as much as a gallon a day in evaporation. Lets also assume you will change a 5 Gallon bucket a week for water changes.

Over a month, you will use about 50 gallons of water, or about 600 gallons a year. If you purchased it at your LFS $1.50 (high), that would come out to $900.00 yearly. Hows your wallet feeling. ;)

An acceptible Kent RO/DI unit that can produce 60 Gals of water a day costs about $190.00 So.. it would nearly pay for itself compared to buying water from your store in 3 months.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=KENT-HI-SRO60&Category_Code=kentro

or

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=SP-MPDI-60&Category_Code=SP4stage

if your near-term problem is $... then you can perhaps use something like the Tap Water purifier. It is carbon and Deionization and makes acceptible water. Note however that the refill cartridges dont make much water (depending on your water quality).. and the expense adds up quickly... you may
wind up paying $1.00 a gallon or so. Some people run 2 of these units in sieries which is a good way to completely exhaust the cartridges yet still maintain relatively pure water.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=6&pCatId=4484

--------------

As for salt mix... Instant Ocean is about the best. Its as cheap as any... is ground quite fine so that it dissolves quickly, has all the trace elements you need, and is used by most. I actually used to spend the extra money for ReefCrystals... (because of its supposed higher calcium and alkalinity) but have come to believe that its not really worth the extra $. IO is fine.

[ReefAquaria4me]

Vlockman,

I believe a R.O./D.I unit would be a good purchase. You said you could get r.o./d.i. water from your LFS for $1.50 per gallon. So you take the 30 gallon. tank and say 30 gallons a month in makeup water & water changes. That would be 390 gallons a year of water. At a $1.50 a gallon, that would be $585.00 dollars. You can get a good R.O./D.I. unit for about $200 to $250 dollars.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=6&pCatId=4459 (http://)

To the salt question. I like Instant Ocean.

[ReefAquaria4me]

Steve,

LOL!!! You beat me to the post. I guess we were both writing at the same time.

[Steve Richardson]

;)

[vlockman]

What would I do without you guys? ;) Obviously, don't have a clue as to what I am doing. Just filter the water add salt and pour it in the tank.........right!!!

I just called my other lfs, and he said he buys his water for the store tanks....at the market for .25 cents a gallon. Then adds the mix. More like it. At least I know now I can do that until I can afford a unit. How hard are they to run? use....don't know how they work. Then they have to be refilled (changed), etc.???

When you do water changes, you use saltwater, freshly mixed. What about just adding the water that has evaporated. Plain water? (by that I mean RO/DI water) Is this correct?

Another lesson.....feel like I'm back in school. Is this really worth it? Must be.....:)

Thanks, again and again Val

[ReefAquaria4me]

Vlockman,

When you do water changes, you use saltwater, freshly mixed. What about just adding the water that has evaporated. Plain water? (by that I mean RO/DI water) Is this correct?

By freshly mixed, do you mean right after mixing it? For your water changes, you should mix the saltwater about 24 hours before you put it in the tank. Making sure the temp. and SG are right.

As for the makeup water for evaporation, you use plain r.o./d.i. water. Adding saltwater for evaporated water would cause the SG to go up. "Not good"

Hope this halps,
ReefAquaria4me

[vlockman]

Yes, had the right idea on the adding water, but didn't know I needed to let the water change water set for 24. I suppose that would mean a large container with a heater to bring it up in temp?

What percent and how often do you do wc's?

At the rate I am spending future $$$ it is going to take me another 6 mos before I will be able to set up. :D

Oh well, was told I would learn patience with saltwater. Looks like that is true. Sure appreciate the time everyone has taken with me and my ignorance. :rolleyes:

Val

[ReefAquaria4me]

Vlockman,

my ignorance
I think this would only apply, if you were not asking all these question.

Water Changes:
I do not currently have a saltwater tank setup, but when I did. I did a 20% water change a month. That water change was divided into 4 changes a month (1 a week).

Making Saltwater:
You will also want a powerhead in the mixing container. This will make sure it is good and mixed.

[Steve Richardson]

Val -

note that letting it sit isnt because of getting it up to temp.

Freshly made saltwater from mix has some ammonia in it and often high levels of CO2. It takes some time for it to 'age'...for the pH to stabilize.

You dont want to mix it up and use it... even if the specific gravity and temp are a perfect match.

random comments,

[ReefAquaria4me]

Thanks Steve.

I knew there were more reasons not to use it right away. It's just been awhile since I have had a saltwater tank setup and forgot some of them. And by the looks of it, I forgot some of the good reasons.

Again, thanks Steve,
ReefAquaria4me

[nail9394]

Vlockman,

You are planing to set up a 55g, it is small.

People tell me you cannot even have a Yellow tang ( 75g is barely minimum as they say).

If you are considering clown fish. my bad experience tell me that they don't like their kind means you can have 1 pair at most. ( I have a clarkii and a percula and now I have a 10g with 1 clarkii in it).

If you don't have too many fish then may be you don't need a top of the line skimmer.

As coral is concerned, first go down to the LFS to see what is available. Decide on what is your favorite and research on it ( I will only buy what I actually see and I don't want to waste my time on things that I can only see in the books, it hurts if you like it and its not available), then size your lighting requirement. For what you are planing to have I think you need 250W MH + PC. In my case I decided that this is too much money to spend on something that the result is uncertain I had just bought NO fluorescent light and pick the coral that don't need much light (mushroom anemone, green star polyp etc.) and I am happy to add one piece for every 2 week.

Anemone.... go down to the LFS 3 time a day and few day in a row to look at the same one, possibly you don't want to mention it at least for a while

Wish you have a nice tank in a short while.
:D

[vlockman]

Thanks everyone......Really appreciate all the input. Before this is over at least there are things I WON'T do. Very important.

Steve, how much and how often do you do wc's on your reef? What temp do you keep it, and what salinity? I'm reading a lot of variance on this.

So I should put 'clean'water in a bucket, add the salt mix and let a power head run in it for at least 24 hrs? What about an airstone too... would that help? or is a power head enough.

I insist on having the proverbial clowns and anemone, can't have a tank without them (of course). :) Did read where you can have more clowns, but only 2 (a pair) of the same species. Is this wrong? Really don't care about too many fish. Would like one of the ones who look like a bulldog and pick on the rocks. :D

Really don't want (nor can I afford) mh lighting. Will try to accomplish it with compacts, but from what I am reading all I need is 330-440W for just about anything. Can do that okay. My lfs claims all I need is the 2 ea/w/4 36W that I bought. Started right out with bad information. Really fun :rolleyes:

Will spend a lot of time later deciding on critters. Plenty of time before I have to think about that. Will get my cleanup crew first after my tank balances out.

Thanks again, Val ;)

[Steve Richardson]

Val...

very good info here:
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1997/nov/features/1/default.asp

survey: (older... but worth a read)

http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=368

results:
http://www.reefcentral.com/library/faq/reeftemps.htm

I keep my tank at about 82'F, and a s.G. of about 1.026. Pretty constant year around.

I do a large water change (30 Gals) about once every 6 weeks on my 75G. This does vary with people. I know some that do 1G every day. Some that do 5G a week.. depends on the size of tank.. and what routine you are comfortable with. Personally, I think a larger monthly water change works well. More info for you:

How water changes affect trace element levels over time:
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/jan/bio/default.asp
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/feb/bio/default.asp

Composition of salt mixes:
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp

A powerhead in a bucket is enough.. and a heater. Always match salinity and temperature closely.. so have a thermometer too. I make a 33 gallon barrel at a time, so I use a large pond pump. (SEN 900).

>"I insist on having the proverbial clowns and anemone, can't have a tank without them (of course). "

Thats a mistake. Certainly in the beginning. As I said before.. anemones are among the most difficult animals to maintain in a tank. I sympathize...really I do. A clownfish/anemone pair was what drew me to reef tanks originally - and I have learned a little since then. (I still dont have.. my tank is inappropriate. I did kill one though a couple years ago. Turned out to be a Heteractis Crispa which I did not identify or know was one of the animals most likely to die in home tanks. Your tank should be a year old before you attempt it.. you could shoot for a simple species, and you should be able to answer these questions with confidence:

Which Species do you want exactly?
Does it have a good record of survival in home aquaria?
How exactly can you identify this species?
Where is it found in the wild?
What environment does it like?
Does it move? Does it Dig In? Does it Attach?
Does it need to be fed? How often? How much?
Does it need lighting? How much?
What are 5 ways to help you identify a healthy specimen?
Are there hazards for anemones in a common home tank that need to be avoided?

">Did read where you can have more clowns, but only 2 (a pair) of the same species. "

Clownfish are great. They are actually damsels you know. They are strongly territorial and form nice pairs.. or even family groups. They are also hermaphrodites... and though they may change from male to female depending on how the social group changes. Usually.. the largest and dominant fish is female, and smaller one(s) that may be with it are male. Large single clownfish are always female.

You can have a species tank.. with say 5 small clowns that will form a family. There will be a dominant pair, and the remaining (males) will bicker occasionally but nothing serious. You can do this with A. Percula or A.Ocellaris for example. There are 28 species of clownfish.. you should check into them.

If you are dead set on it.. you need to get both of these books and read them. It will increase your chance of successs a great deal:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764105116/reeflink/002-5063518-8866449

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890087041/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/002-5063518-8866449


I also envisioned a tank full of clownfish of all types long ago. :p No.. you cant do that. In a large tank (75+) you could keep 2 different types of clowns, of the milder species - but again - you need to know your animals. You wouldnt want a pair of Maroon clowns... and say a pair of Tomato clowns.

You can buy mated pairs. You can also buy tiny farm raised fish.. one bigger than the other - they will fight for a bit... but will often pair up as well. Not sure what type you mean looks like a bulldog.. go find out what it is, and I might be able to give you an opinion on it.

Go easy on your lfs.. They mean well, but their goals are often different than yours, and many have not have to create stable reef systems for long-term captivity. Some clerks are more familiar with birds, cats, and lizzards than reef invertebrates and their identification and care. ;) Just keeping animals alive long enough to sell. Of course there are exceptions. No... you dont need MH.. though they are spectacular. I run my tank with VHOs which allow you to have most anything..not everything. MHs create too much heat for my tank and where it is located. I replaced PCs a couple of years ago, I didnt like the limited selection of bulbs, and I had trouble with them burning out... but others have good luck with them they say.

[vlockman]

Hi Steve, ;)

No, wasn't thinking of a tank of clowns. Just repeating what I read. Just want a couple of Maroon ones. (Interesting about them changing sex...sure makes it easier to get a pair, do they breed in tanks?)(and a couple anemones) (corals?) Will I be able to have a clam? Haven't got into any research about critters or animals yet...still working on the hardware. :) I don't want to overstock, or crowd. Tanks just look cluttered when people do. IMHO I enjoy seeing all the little growths on the rocks too. Is Fuji rock alive enough?

Lighting...when they figure watts over a tank, do they add each individual light or all across? Trying to figure how to say this. In other words, would 2/24" 55W be 110W as it appears, or would it only be 55W if they were put end to end in a 48" tank. If I put 4/24" with 2/55W in each over my 48" tank would that = 440W as it appears to? or only 220W. Am I making any sense? :D
What about VHO? Would I have room on my tank to bring up the watts to bright enough? hmmmmmm

Great links. Thanks. I've run out of ink in my printer :p That's ok will bookmark and go back and read.

Val

[ReefAquaria4me]

Thanks Steve,

I found the links to be very informative. Good stuff that I had not read yet.

Again, Thanks
ReefAquaria4me

[ReefAquaria4me]

After having a saltwater tank setup for two years. The 6 years (on & off) I have been researching saltwater aquaria. Since I broke down my tank. I am still amazed at the things that I can learn about this great hobby. It just completely amazes me.
"What a wonderful hobby to have!"

ReefAquaria4me

[ReefAquaria4me]

Hopefully I can answer this question better than I did the mixing saltwater and letting it sit question.

To get the total watts of light for your tank. You add the watts of each light. Say you are using 4/55watt PC's, that would be a total of 220 watts of light on the tank.

To know how much light (watts) you need is dependent on the size of tank, the type of bulbs and the creatures you want to keep.

[Steve Richardson]

>"(and a couple anemones)"

hmm... trying to help you here friend. ;) I hope you take my comments regarding anemones seriously. You should certainly go through the archives regarding them as well. (random comment.. did you realize that anemones can outlive you in the wild?)

>"Will I be able to have a clam? "

certainly. Need to get a tank set up and stable first. Probably not something you want to put into the tank in the first coupls months. Somedthing like a T.Deresa would do fine in your tank with the lights you are looking at. Keep in mind, it will get as big as your head in several years.

[vlockman]

Reefaquaria4me;

You just made my day. I was hoping I was right figuring that way. That means I will have enough light when I finish getting them all, and they will all fit on my tank (almost) :) If I get 4 fixtures each with 2/55W = 440W, then that is enough for anything I want to put in the tank according to what I am reading.

Thanks, Val :D

[vlockman]

Hi Steve,

Sorry if I gave the impression I was going to go right out and buy some anemones. Not so. I figure it will take a month or so to get my tank balanced out (after I come up with the money for the skimmer and the rock), and the first thing I will think of is a good housekeeping crew. Also want to make sure my rock and sand are plenty alive. Will add more if need be. Really don't know for sure what I am doing here, but sounds good??? :D

Also, will be awhile before I will be able to add the lights I want. Will my rock grow with only my 4/36W and maybe 2/40W flour in strip? just until I can buy and add the 55W's.? Think 6 mos after setup before I can go shopping for anemones. Maybe longer. Figure I have a lot of research to do on them. Don't want to spend the $$ on one and then not like it (or even worse, kill it):(
Planning on researching each animal before I get it, and then on to the next one the same. I'm in no hurry. ;)

Got you going, though......:eek2:

Thanks again, Val:(

[vlockman]

Hi, yes it is me again!!!

Steve, just teasing you. I really appreciate all your help...would have crashed already if not for all of you. Just that I don't have a clue what I really want to put in the tank. Want to be set up so that if I see something I can't live without (and it is reef compatible), I will be able to get it without a major overhaul. I want to get the reef set up with cleaners, etc first and then.......

Trying to take this a step at a time. Now that the horrible skimmer episode is over.....:p Will buy that first of month. Can I set up my tank with natural sea sand and sea water only, heat it get my skimmer going, and then buy rock the first of the following month?

Does anyone know the difference in the live rock? I am seeing four different kinds (there are probably lots more); these are all uncured, which is what I want...

Paragon Aquatics = Fiji Show Rock, Fiji Premium Rock, Tonga Branch Rock, Tonga Shelf Rock

They also have one that is cured, Vavau Rock ???
------------------------------------------------------------
Cquarium = they have Fiji but they also have Alor from Bali...the pics are awesome. :)

Would appreciate any advice/information on this. What determines how large the pieces are? I don't want real large, but don't want rubble either. :confused: (seems I stay this way)

TIA, Val

[Bocaswim]

Hi Val,

Just want to say "good luck" with your new tank. You are asking all the right questions, and doing careful reasearch. It will pay off in the long run. I have only had my new tank set up for six weeks, but it sat empty in my living room for six months (at least). Friends joked that it looked like a giant glass coffin.:rolleyes: But, I used that time to gather info and equipment. Plus it wasn't such a strain on the budget all at once.

Couple of thoughts from reading your posts, have you checked out the classifieds? There are always decent prices for used equip. I bought all my lighting through RC reefers or ebay.

Sounds like you are trying to cram alot of PC lighting in that canopy. I'm not sure what the end cost will be in $$ for the PC's but you might want to consider an Icecap 660 VHO. It will power 4 x 48" bulbs for a total of 440 watts. Same as PC's you're considering, but for about $150 or so used $200 new.

You had asked awhile back about wavemaking. I actually did invest in the motorized ball valves, on a closed loop (not thru sump). Well worth it IMO, but pricey-$500 total. You can achieve the same effect with a wavestrip (Natural Wave) powerstrip for about one tenth of the cost.

Best of luck.

[vlockman]

Hi Bocaswim,

Thanks for the ideas. The reason I am getting 24" fixtures is that I just don't want to wrestle the 48" ones. Also, can move them around and use them on smaller tanks. Dumb, but there it is. The only reason I bought the 36W ones is that is what my lfs told me I needed when I first started out. :lol: :lol: So much to learn. Hopefully, that will be the last mistake in that direction...actually wasn't too bad if that's all I screw up on. :D

Can't even consider $500 for the water movement right now, but will have to figure something out...am reading that is very important. Where did you get yours? and what is it called? :)

Val

[Bocaswim]

Hi Val,

I hear ya, on the flexibity with the smaller fixtures. Although, I never had to deal with going into smaller tanks, I just keep upgrading. I actually ran 4 x 96 watt PC's (2 white 2 blue) on my 55 gal. Around ($400 if I remember correctly) But that was two tanks and two years ago. Just thinking it would be less wires for you to deal with. I was surprised at how economical VHO's were when I actually bought them. MY LFS scared me away from them originally.

A motorized ball valve is a somewhat involved setup. It requires a drilled (or at least an overflow) tank. One hole is for input to an external pump ( I use a little giant MD3 $130) Then out of the pump to a three way ball valve(Hayward Industrial) which rotates periodically between two returns (Natural Wavestrip $80 LFS). Don't forget to add misc. plumbing, bulkheads etc. $50+. For more details this is a great site: http://www.rockcanyon.com/reef/flow.htm

Have you decided what kind of corals you want to keep? I helped a friend convert to a reef on his 55gal recently, his is doing great. I don't think he has experienced any of the usual mishaps. (except for shrinking wallet syndrome) Try and find locals in your area, join your local reef club. Great for hands on help and eventually frags.

That's all for now. :D

[vlockman]

Hi Gayle, Thanks again. Will check out the site.

No, haven't gotten into research on any animals yet. I know there is a whole world out there to discover. :D

Will have plenty of time after I collect my sand and order my rock. Trying to decide what kind of rock now. :)

Val