When to do first water change during cycling with damsels? 7 gallon tank.

[Twilight]

I'm cycling a 7 gallon tank, running an Eheim 2213 which probably adds another 1 gallon, total 8 gallons of water minus sand/decorations space. I added two small to medium sized yellow-tailed blue damsels 50 hours ago, and already I have 0.5-1ppm ammonia. I added 1/8th tsp Saltwater Biozyme when I got the damsels, but no live rock or sand (no good source for that around here). Feeding fish twice a day with a very small bit of brine shrimp flakes. The damsels don't seem stressed at all - in fact, I tested the water from the store that they came in and it had 0.5-1ppm ammonia as well (this water was not added to the tank). How high should I let the ammonia get before I do my first water change? How much do you suggest that I change out? I'm using R/O water.

[Twilight]

Just as I go saying the fish looks fine, then one doesn't. The smaller of the two damsels was hanging out at the back corner at the top near the surface. So, I changed 1 gallon of water out. After the water change the ammonia still tests 0.5-1ppm. I haven't quite determined if it was the water quality that made him unhappy or the other damsel. The water chang freaked out the bigger of the two, and he's hiding under the branch of a (dead) coral decoration. The smaller damsel is now swimming around and seems happy, but every time the big one pokes it's head out the little one darts to the upper corner of the tank. Is the bigger one likely the bully the smaller one to death? Should I return one of them to the store, or begin cycling my 18 gallon tank with one?

[DgenR8]

Your damsels will likely die, please, don't replace them and don't take the same route to cycle another tank. An effective cycle can be kicked off with ONE dead shrimp (grocery store type) or an order of live rock.
Cycling with live animals is cruel and an out dated approach.
Search "cycling" for other more humane methods.

[Skipper]

Should I return one of them to the store Yes, I would....ALL of the damsels. Cycling with fish is no longer necessary and is inhumane. Get a piece of cocktail shrimp and put in the tank to start your bacteria going. IMO, water changes during cycling are un-necessary and slow the whole process down.

[Twilight]

I hardly think the damsels will die if I monitor the cycling process and make appropriate water changes. Many people use damsels to cycle a tank - the reason they use damsels is because they are tolerant of poor water conditions. I'm quite certain that the damsel in the corner of my tank is there because it's been bullied. Everytime it tries to leave that corner the larger one tries to nip at it - it had yet to do any damage to the smaller damsel besides possible stress.

[OscarBeast]

...or an order of live rock.
Cycling with live animals is cruel and an out dated approach.
?

Go with the cocktail shrimp or something like an ammonia drip.

Live rock is called "live" because of the thousands of different organisms that live on and in it. Nuking these creatures to cycle your tank is no better than using damsels.

[OscarBeast]

Originally posted by Twilight
I hardly think the damsels will die if I monitor the cycling process and make appropriate water changes. Many people use damsels to cycle a tank - the reason they use damsels is because they are tolerant of poor water conditions. I'm quite certain that the damsel in the corner of my tank is there because it's been bullied. Everytime it tries to leave that corner the larger one tries to nip at it - it had yet to do any damage to the smaller damsel besides possible stress.

Just because they are less likely to die during a cycling process doesn't exactly mean that they are having a good time.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Twilight
Many people use damsels to cycle a tank - the reason they use damsels is because they are tolerant of poor water conditions.

The fact that others are doing something wrong is not a very good justification for doing it.

Assume that you're right, and that the reason that the damsel is in the corner is because he's being bullied. The fish looks unwell. In a cycled tank, the fish would have basically one stress - being bullied. In your tank, he also has the added stress of being in subpar conditions, which makes him that much more likely to die.

Oscar, while nuking all those animals on LR could be argued to be no better morally, I would argue that it's better for the tank. IME, with the critters on LR, most of the populations will have sufficient numbers of animals alive at the end of the cycle to replenish their numbers, even if half of them die. If you cycle with two damsels, and one of them dies, you're not going to have more fish growing on their own. In each case, 50% of the population dies, but one is able to recover.

Dave

[kymebud]

Twilight, How would you like to shoved in a small room, with car fumes being pushed in the room. Thats the same thing you are doing to your fish. You would be sick, may die. Would that be the life you want? You need to learn to respect all aspects of live, big or small.

Just becasue everyone else does it or because it works faster, doesnt mean you need to kill a poor innocent animal that got captured away from his family just so you could use it to cycle your tank.

I will addmit, i did this approach the fisrt time i set up my tank, but i will never do it again. Its cruel and actaully cost more than buying a shrimp cocktail at your local super market.

Just an opinion

[OscarBeast]

IME, with the critters on LR, most of the populations will have sufficient numbers of animals alive at the end of the cycle to replenish their numbers, even if half of them die. If you cycle with two damsels, and one of them dies, you're not going to have more fish growing on their own. In each case, 50% of the population dies, but one is able to recover.


While I will agree from the stand point of the tank alone, that cycling with LR is a far better way to cycle, I don't understand the point you are trying to make with this part.

[Twilight]

Kymebud, how would you like to be shoved inside a small glass house? It's similar to your current environment, but different enough that you'd know you're not in Kansas anymore. Would that be the life you want? This hobby isn't very pretty, when you think about it.

Just an opinion.

[nk57]

Hi Twilight, I have to agree with the others here, cycling with fish is never a good idea. Even if your fish were to survive, the amount of stress put on them is almost unbearable to think about. Shrimp is a great way to start the cycle. If you are looking for some good deals on live rock and sand, take a look at our sponsers. You can get some incredible deals! Good luck with your tanks.

Nancy

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by OscarBeast

?

Go with the cocktail shrimp or something like an ammonia drip.

Live rock is called "live" because of the thousands of different organisms that live on and in it. Nuking these creatures to cycle your tank is no better than using damsels.

OscarBeast,
I must respectfully disagree with your position here. Aside from greens and some usually unwanted crabs or a mantis, the "thousands of different organisms" you mention feed on Ammonia turning it to Nitrite, then they turn the Nitrite to Nitrate for consumption in your sand bed.
Could you please explain how using live rock to cycle = nuking creatures?

[Twilight]

Nancy - I wouldn't mind ordering live rock/sand from an online source, but no one is going to ship me the small amount I would need for this 7 gallon tank. Plus, at this point I really don't know if I plan on using live rock/sand as my eventual setup.

[dattack]

There is no LFS that will sell you live rock?:confused:

[Twilight]

There is one store in this town with live rock.. if you can call it that. It's bare, just sitting in a tank with some shrimp and fish - not much of anything on it. They want $6/lb. I've seen more than one person walk into the store wanting live rock and they leave without it because of it's condition.

30 minute drive and I have access to the next store for live rock. They just started carrying it, the store has a new owner, and this guy has never owned a SW tank before! The store is mostly freshwater stuff. His rock is covered in gunky brown algae, and when I was there two days ago he had a butterfly in the tank with the rock and the fish was eating everything off.

1 hour drive and we're starting to get rock that might be considered decent, but not really.

2 hour drive and there is good stuff, but what a price to pay. I'm new to this, and I haven't even decided if I like the live rock look. Then I have to deal with anything that may have crawled in on the rock.

In short - I think I'll keep a fish-only tank for a while before i get into live rock/sand and all that mess.

[Hlothran]

Originally posted by Twilight
I hardly think the damsels will die if I monitor the cycling process and make appropriate water changes. Many people use damsels to cycle a tank - the reason they use damsels is because they are tolerant of poor water conditions. I'm quite certain that the damsel in the corner of my tank is there because it's been bullied. Everytime it tries to leave that corner the larger one tries to nip at it - it had yet to do any damage to the smaller damsel besides possible stress.

In my experience with fish (both fresh and salt) the fish that is being bullied is possibly sick, or weak due to any number of things, but in this case probably due to the poor water conditions. If you are intent on keeping these fish to cycle the tank you MIGHT be seeing the beginning of the end for one of your fish.

Hlothran

[Twilight]

But is 0.5-1ppm ammonia really all that toxic to a damsel? There is no nitrite and no nitrate. The water they came in from the store had 0.5-1ppm ammonia and 20ppm nitrate. They're in better water than they were in before I bought them. I happen to think that so far I'm doing them a favor!

[Al]

You could do yourself a favor, twilight. Lock yourself in a small room containing a low level of car fumes (won't kill you right away). Don't forget to include a bigger roomate who wants the room to himself. Discard the key. Stay there till things get better. And if they don't, hey, the world's not a pretty place.
Let us know how it works out.

[Hlothran]

Originally posted by Twilight
But is 0.5-1ppm ammonia really all that toxic to a damsel? There is no nitrite and no nitrate. The water they came in from the store had 0.5-1ppm ammonia and 20ppm nitrate. They're in better water than they were in before I bought them. I happen to think that so far I'm doing them a favor!


Buying something from the LFS because you can give it a better life is not really going to help. The LFS will just replace that purchase with another, and another, and another.. etc... The only thing this is going to do is make the LFS richer and you poorer for your efforts.

You may have no nitrites now, but this is the beginning of the cycle, a full cycle can take anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks and long term exposure to increasing levels of ammonia and nitrites are detrimental to the health of livestock.

On the other hand, we are not going to convince you either.. :(

Hlothran

[Wolverine]

Oscar, what I was trying to get across there (poorly, I'll admit) was that most of the critters that die off on LR will be replaced by the members that survive the cycle. With the fish, they just die off. As an example, I'm sure half of the amphipods in our tank died during the original cycle, but we still ended up with a ton of them.

Twilight, basically any rock that you put into your tank will eventually become LR in the biological filter sense of the word. If you just put in some baserock, and then put in the dead shrimp from the grocery store, you will build up that population of bacteria to do all you need. That's what we did when we set up our 10g tank. Then we later added some pieces of rubble rock from our other tank. This will take a little longer than cycling with good LR, which will already have some of the necessary bacteria, but it will, in the end, give you the same effect (without the same diversity of reef life, of course).

Dave

[Scholesy]

Twilight,
maybe you just need to slow down a little?

I ending up using a piece of dead shrimp after a black molly didn't seem to do much (it's notw converted back to freshwater and fat as a pig). The main thing is patience - my 43g tank took 72 days to cycle.

My rock I started with was completely DEAD - it had been sitting on a shelf in the shop for about 2 yrs. There is no-one in my COUNTRY that sells live rock; so I just had to buy the dead stuff; and let nature take its course.

Now (6 months on) my rock is covered with coralline algae; a little caulerpa donated from a friend; a few hardy corals; loads of little tubeworms that are multiplying; a cleaner shrimp; snails; a starfish called Brian; 3 fish... it's doing great.

I have pretty budget equipment: an Eheim 2228 canister; a modified SeaClone; laughable NO actinics lights; a hilarious budget-DIY kalk-dripper....... but my tank is very clean.

Nitrate: <5ppm
Nitrite and Ammo: 0
pH: 8.2
Ca: 350 (rising slowly)
kH: 11.5
PO4: 0
temp: 25.5C
sG: 1.024

Sorry for the long post: my point is that even with BUDGET equipment and cr*p LFS', PATIENCE will overcome all.

Good luck!
Scholesy

[slimytadpole]

Asside from the fact that you are cycling with fish (which I think is bad idea), damsels WILL fight each other. I wouldn't put 2 damsels in a 55 gallon tank, much less a 7 gallon tank. Bottom line: if they both survive the cycle, they will likely fight to the death.

[slimytadpole]

Originally posted by OscarBeast

Live rock is called "live" because of the thousands of different organisms that live on and in it. Nuking these creatures to cycle your tank is no better than using damsels.

I have an explaination on why cycling a tank with live rock shouldn't result in mass loss of life on the part of the creatures on the live rock. It's at the bottom of this thread...

http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=67664&highlight=appropriately

[Skipper]

Al: Come on, man. Let's drop the analogies down a notch or two, please.

[OscarBeast]

Originally posted by DgenR8


OscarBeast,
I must respectfully disagree with your position here. Aside from greens and some usually unwanted crabs or a mantis, the "thousands of different organisms" you mention feed on Ammonia turning it to Nitrite, then they turn the Nitrite to Nitrate for consumption in your sand bed.
Could you please explain how using live rock to cycle = nuking creatures?

?

Could you please explain how using live rock to cycle = nuking creatures?

Aside from greens and some usually unwanted crabs or a mantis

If you make just one of these suffer, then you are no better than the person making a damsel suffer. I don't know about you, but I have feather dusters, snails, worms, nudis, and all kinds of pods that were in my LR.

I don't know how to make it any clearer. There are many inverts that can be on LR other than the ammonia and nitrogen "fixing" bacteria. Many of these inverts suffer and die because of the cycle.

If you don't believe me that there are thousands of possible inverts that DON'T fix ammonia and nitrogen that can suffer through the cycle, just ask Dr. Ron.

I really don't know how to be any clearer. If you make ANY creature that can suffer do so, then it is no better than making any other creature suffer.

Wolverine,
What does it matter, other than to the owners pocketbook, that the creatures that survive can reproduce? The dead ones aren't going to come back to life, are they?

So if you start out with 4 Damsels and two survive and reproduce it is OK to cycle with them?

Still not seeing the point other than the fact that if you have enough of any creature to reproduce in your tank that they can replenish their numbers. I mean yea, I agree, this is true. I just don't understand what you are trying to say or justify by saying this though. Maybe I am just dumb. :p

slimytadpole,
Of course adding things properly isn't going to result in the loss of life. I don't think that this is the issue at stake here. I think the issue here is when people add too many fish to an uncycled tank to purposely cause an ammonia spike or adding large amounts of uncured LR to do the same thing.

[slimytadpole]

Originally posted by OscarBeast
Of course adding things properly isn't going to result in the loss of life. I don't think that this is the issue at stake here.

Sure it is. Adding live rock to a tank to aid is cycling is proper, but you claim it results in a loss of life. I claim that it doesn't.

I think the issue here is when people add too many fish to an uncycled tank to purposely cause an ammonia spike or adding large amounts of uncured LR to do the same thing.

I was not talking about adding fish. I was addressing your claim that cycling with live rock is just as bad as using damsels. Specifically, I am addressing why I believe that is not true.

Also, why is cycling a tank with uncured live rock any worse that curing live rock? It would seem to me that cycling a tank with uncured live rock would be easier on the rock-dwelling organisms than curing the rock prior to adding it to a tank. The curing stage is what causes the mass loss of life, not the cycling stage.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by OscarBeast


What does it matter, other than to the owners pocketbook, that the creatures that survive can reproduce? The dead ones aren't going to come back to life, are they?

So if you start out with 4 Damsels and two survive and reproduce it is OK to cycle with them?



How often have you seen damsels successfully have raised fry in a tank they've cycled? I haven't seen it. And how often have you seen people get more than one of a type of damsel? Rarely. Usually when people cycle with damsel they get as many different kinds as they can, and this rarely ends with reproduction.

As to what it matters, what about the ocean, from where the fish and LR have usually been removed? Just as the LR organisms can more easily replenish their populations in our tank than the fish can, but so can their populations in the wild.

Just out of curiosity, how do you cycle your tanks?

Dave

[OscarBeast]

slimytadpole,
You are addressing a claim that I have never made in this thread.

When things are done properly, the loss of life is little to none (LR or with fish). If you would like me to say that cycling with LR properly doesn't result in the mass loss of life, I agree with this. Happy?

"Claiming it results in a loss of life" is not something that I have stated. My whole argument was exactly what I said, "Nuking these creatures to cycle your tank is no better than using damsels."

Wolverine,
What on God's green earth does any animal reproducing anywhere have anything to do with what we are talking about?

Is ease of reproduction in captivity a justification for something suffering, or it is morally sound, or it is just OK, or it means Santa is coming to town? :p

Yes, many of the creatures found on LR can reproduce quite well in captivity, so what EXACTLY are you saying?

So if you start out with 4 Damsels and two survive and reproduce it is OK to cycle with them? IF they could, would it be? The point wasn't if they could or couldn't, I was trying to get you to state some sort of point out of your statements about reproduction feasibility.

To clear things up a bit before you answer, I don't have problems with animals being killed. I eat seafood, and quite enjoy it (with the exception of boiled lobster, which I also believe is cruel) . People that cause animals to suffer intentionally is what I disagree with.

Animals being able to reproduce readily would be a justification for it not being "wrong" to kill them for a "good" reason if they weren't endangered, IMHO, but not for making something suffer. This is why I said this: If you make ANY creature that can suffer do so, then it is no better than making any other creature suffer.

And I won't lie to you Wolverine. When I cycled my
marine tank I used LR. I didn't even do it properly. I added uncured LR in a large amount and made a nice big ammonia spike that killed all kinds of creatures on my LR. I was told that the LR was cured, unfortunately this wasn't true. I must say that it is something I feel really bad about and will never do again.

When I cycled my large freshwater tanks, I used very small fish in large volumes of water so that they did not cause a detectable spike.

[Pepito]

I think the bottom point of this thread really is that Twillight needs to go out and read some books and find out what he's doing. If he doesn't he will loes lives, money, and will probably be out of this hobby within a year. Learn what you're doin BEFORE you do it.

[Twilight]

Why does everyone always assume that I'm male?

I've done the reading. There are differences of opinion on many aspects of reef keeping. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't done any research.

[slimytadpole]

Originally posted by OscarBeast
slimytadpole,
You are addressing a claim that I have never made in this thread.

When things are done properly, the loss of life is little to none (LR or with fish). If you would like me to say that cycling with LR properly doesn't result in the mass loss of life, I agree with this. Happy?

"Claiming it results in a loss of life" is not something that I have stated. My whole argument was exactly what I said, "Nuking these creatures to cycle your tank is no better than using damsels."

So, let me see if I understand you: You state that you never claimed cycling with live rock results in loss of life, but you do claim that it is "nuking creatures"?

Nuking creatures == loss of life.

DgenR8 suggested properly cycling with Live Rock. You countered that "Nuking these creatures [on the live rock] was no better than using damsels". I am countering you by stating that cycling with live rock != nuking creatures.


Originally posted by DgenR8
---------------------------------------------------
...or an order of live rock.
Cycling with live animals is cruel and an out dated approach.
---------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by OscarBeast
?
Go with the cocktail shrimp or something like an ammonia drip.

Live rock is called "live" because of the thousands of different organisms that live on and in it. Nuking these creatures to cycle your tank is no better than using damsels.


Looks like you make a pretty clear claim properly cycling with live rock results in a mass loss of life.

[slimytadpole]

Originally posted by Twilight
Why does everyone always assume that I'm male?

I've done the reading. There are differences of opinion on many aspects of reef keeping. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't done any research.

While there is certainly room for differences of opinion in this hobby, there are some things that are pretty well beyond debate. There are some people who think it's OK to cycle with a damsel, and some (like myself) who do not. That's debatable, and regardless of your opinion on the matter, it doesn't prove or disprove that you did your homework.
However, it's pretty much accepted that multiple damsels is small tanks WILL fight and one or both are going to die. Even a minimal amount of research would have revealed this. Don't mix damsels. Same species, or otherwise.

[OscarBeast]

Dude, just read what I said and stop thinking so hard about it.

or an order of live rock.
Cycling with live animals is cruel and an out dated approach.

I thought this was kind of funny because live rock has live animals on it and that he/she turned around and said that cycling with live animals is cruel.
This is why I said:
?
Live rock is called "live" because of the thousands of different organisms that live on and in it.
This was actually my direct counter to what DgenR8 said.

Since you seem to like using = I will do a couple if that is going to be the only way you are going to get it.

IF cycling with damsels = cruel because they are live animals, then it must also be true that cycling with LR is cruel because it has live animals on it. This was a direct counter to the LOGIC that was used.

This is the first point that you should have drawn from it.

Nuking = Intentionally killing or making animals suffer to create a large ammonia spike in order to rapidly and thoroughly cycle a tank.

NUKING, which I have defined for you, is wrong as well. If anyone cycles with anything without nuking, then it is not wrong IMHO. Since I believed that DgenR8 was talking about the improper use of live animals to cycle, I was as well. I was not directing anything towards the PROPER use of ANYTHING to cycle.

As I said before I believe that “When things are done properly, the loss of life is little to none (LR or with fish)�.

I didn't intend for anyone to think that "I" believe that all cycling with any animal (LR or otherwise) is always going to result in the "mass loss of life".

Looks like you make a pretty clear claim properly cycling with live rock results in a mass loss of life.

Looks can be deceiving.

[Wolverine]

OK, I see the problem here. We're basically arguing about different things, and I think it's from me taking something out of context. You're arguing from a moral perspective on animal cruelty saying that nuking things on LR in a cycle is no better morally than nuking damsels in a cycle. I've been arguing from an ecological perspective on the replacement ability of the animals to be nuked. The point of what I've been saying is that if you throw the suffering/nuking thing out the window, I think that cycling with LR is better in terms of overall tank health and ecological soundness. I just took the term of one being "better" than the other, while you've been sticking to the argument purely on moral grounds.

My bad.

Dave

[robwsup]

Oscar has the same concern as I. Sure many people cycle their tanks with damsels, I have. The difference is tank volume. I cycled a 75 gallon with damsels. I also had live rock and live sand. It takes awhile for two damsels to dirty up a 75 gallon. They will probably not produce enough NH4 to kill themselves. In a 7 gallon tank, this would probably happen much faster, especially if you are too cheap to buy any live rock or live sand to do it right.

Here is a fitting analogy:

Let's say you have a 1000 gallon bucket of water. Not only do you pee in that bucket, you also drink from it. Disgusting right, but really a few ounces of urine diluted in 1000gallons of water, you could probably do it for weeks and never taste the urine. Eventually your "bucket" would cycle and process the urine quickly and it would disappear soon after you took a leak.

Imagine if you started with a 5 gallon bucket to drink from/ pee in!


Robert

[Twilight]

Well now all of you can yell at me: I bought live rock today. 6lbs @ $6/lb. It's covered in purple coraline algae, but I cannot see any feather dusters or other life. I saw one 1" flatworm when I put it into the tank, and a tiny starfish, but that's it.

p.s.
robwsup- I find is disgusting that you label someone "too cheap" when you have no idea about their finances. FYI, not that it's ANY of your business, I've been unemployed since June 2001. Try to imagine graduting from college in the middle of a huge economic crisis. I've applied for every single job in the US (coast to coast) that I've come across and been qualified for: 15 jobs total. One place sent me a rejection letter and mentioned that they'd had over 150 applicants. I am very good at what I do, but when there are that many people looking for the same job you are and there are 15 openings in 8 months, you're basically screwed. I didn't hesitate to purchase live rock because I was "too cheap" - I hesitated because I'm quite broke, and the live rock that is available within a reasonable driving distance is crap. I saw no point in wasting my money on ugly rock. I came across good rock today, and against my better judgement I bought some. It might have been a better idea for me to wait to set up this tank until I could afford to pour in a ridiculous amount of money, but after 8 months of job hunting I'm bored off my *** and really needed something to lift my spirits.

[Twilight]

Here's a photo of the setup:

[robwsup]

Hey sorry about your finances, but the fact you can't spend $35 on live rock should not be a death sentence to your fish. This hobby costs money! It always has, it always will. Usually not spending enough in the beginning makes you spend double later. Remember that. The rock you purchased was probably not against your better judgement. Good choice. And I'll admit, as much as this hobby costs, and as much work as it is, it will surely lift your spirits when done right.


Robert

[fliberdygibits]

that the if all goes well, the idea is that the conditions in his tank WILL get better.

This is almost certain to happen if, in response to his questions, he receives positive constructive feedback on how to avoid these mistakes in the future.

On the other end of the scale, if all he receives is negativity and attacks, then he will probably go elsewhere. We have ALL made mistakes in this hobby....... ALL of us....... and we learn.......

[Twilight]

fliberdygibits: I'm not a "he" - weren't you paying attention just nine posts back? I see you're in Portland - were you at the reef keeper's meeting February 16th?

[DgenR8]

Twilight,
Congrats on giving in and purchasing some live rock. You'd have needed it eventually, I don't think it was a bad move at all.
It's not always easy to be constructive when answering the "damsel cycling" question, or others that get asked often. We do our best here to give quality answers from real life experience, some topics generate a little more heat than others. I hope you can accept criticism and do better in the hobby because of it.
As for people making the assumption that you are male, try to understand that we have never seen you, and I don't remember anything in your posts or profile to indicate that you are not male. (I remember at least one of your posts VIVIDLY) Possibly a gender specific name, even if it's not really yours at the end of each post would help clarify things if it bothers you that much.

[OscarBeast]

Wolverine,
I think you hit the nail on the head.
And I agree with what you are, and were saying. It was just that I didn't see what relation it had to the points I was making. :p

Twilight,
Please don't think that everyone was mad or yelling at you. It was only a healthy discussion of the issues at hand. It wasn't all directed at you, but rather the points that were brought up in the thread.

Almost everyone has unintentionally done something that they normally wouldn't do, if they knew what they were doing. We have all screwed up in some way, and many of our animals have paid the price for it. We can see that you are not a bad guy (hehe JK, GIRL). Don't worry, and please don't get discouraged.

You will find that most guys tend to call both males and unknowns HE.

I do have to add one other thing though. Financial status should never result in the suffering of animals. If someone can't afford to properly care for live animals, then they shouldn't. Please don't think that I believe that you are doing this, or that you are too cheap. I just want you to realize that this is the mentality that many people have about the aquarium hobby. Most of the people here care about the animals and not people's pocketbooks when giving advice. This may seem insensitive to the owners, but think about it as being sensitive to the animals instead.

BTW, my wife just graduated and applied for around 35 jobs, had a 3.987 or so GPA, and has 2 majors and a minor, and still didn't get a job in the field that she wanted. She was lucky that she had another major to fall back on. So believe me, I am sorry to hear about your situation and understand. I really hope that you find a job soon, and wish you luck.

That is also some very nice LR with great corralline algae growth.
Good Luck.

[Headshow]

Twilight,

WHere in Oregon are you? If you want any LFS suggestions, let us know!

[fliberdygibits]

Originally posted by Twilight
fliberdygibits: I'm not a "he" - weren't you paying attention just nine posts back? I see you're in Portland - were you at the reef keeper's meeting February 16th?

I didn't get as far as 9 posts ago, I got just a handful into the thread and decided to post. My apologies again, and good luck with your tank. I only recently started keeping tanks again, so I wasn't at the last meeting, but I am planning on being at the next one.

Sheez........... Now I feel like a bit of a twit:P